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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: patjohn on Sunday 11 August 24 22:12 BST (UK)
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Looking for a marriage of John Nicoll Gowans and Helen nee Bisset. They are noted on their son's marriage record but cannot trace their marriage anywhere in Scotland. Any help appreciated
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You haven't given any clue as to timescale??
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John Nicoll Gowans died 1946 aged 77 so b about 1869. Have you found him in any census records to establish his birthplace?
EDIT
His birth is on SP b Angus
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What is the son's name, and where and when was he born?
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JOHN NICOLL GOWANS 1869 Forfar
mmn NICOLL
1881 census on SP
GOWANS John 13
Dwelling: 5 The Vennel
Forfar, Forfar, Scotland
parents
John GOWANS 43 Sheriff Officer
Ann GOWANS Wife 40
Colin
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There is a 1956 marriage but only one L in Nicoll
Also 2 births - 1935 & 1952.
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This is the only census I can find for a John of the right age but no marriage in England, maybe he emigrated?
1891
John Gowans 1869 Scotland Boarder Paper Maker.
Benfieldside, Durham
This looks like his father.
Birth/baptism JOHN GOWANS 7/08/1837 Carmyllie
JOHN GOWANS/SUSAN PHILIP
Death JOHN GOWANS 54
mmn PHILIP 1892 Forfar
Maybe his mother but no clear birth/baptism, 1881 states place of birth as Carmyllie. No census after 1881 or marriage to above as far as I can see?
Death ANNIE GOWANS 60
mmn SMITH 1901 Forfar
Colin
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Until Patjohn provides clearer information re a time scale plus name of son we may well be wasting our time with suppositions
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Until Patjohn provides clearer information re a time scale plus name of son we may well be wasting our time with suppositions
Indeed. It's a bit like looking for a black cat in a coal cellar.
We also need to know when and where the son was born and when and where the son was married, because if he was married somewhere other than Scotland, England or Wales it will provide a clue to whether or not they emigrated and if so where to.
I do so wish that RootsChat required people to put their country of residence in their profiles. We have no idea where Patjohn is - could be anywhere from New Zealand to Alaska via Timbuctoo :)
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My apologies for the delay. Illness! I am in Scotland, Sorry for the dearth of information originally.
George Bisset Gowans' birth record (October 1910 in Dundee) shows his parents marriage as June 21st 1902 in Dundee, They were John Nicoll Gowans and Nellie Bisset but no record on Scotland's People. I have checked with them and he definitely did not marry in Scotland. The couple also had 9 other children all born in the Dundee area.
George Bisset Gowans also married in Dundee
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Have you found John & Nellie on the 1911 census? Where & when was she born? How old is their eldest child?
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George Bisset Gowans' birth record (October 1910 in Dundee)
George Bisset Gowan's birth was registered in KILMORACK, not Dundee.
Younger sister, Jane, was also born in Kilmorack.
The family in 1911 census is in DORES
John GOWAN 38
Nellie GOWAN 30
Minnie 7
James 3
Jane 1
George 0
Have you looked at the birth certificates of the other children to see what information there is about parents marriage?
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John Nicoll Gowans was born 21 June 1869, so his age in 1911 census is not correct.
There is a prison record for him in 1901 Dundee. You would need to see the record to know what this was for, and how long he was in prison.
1921 census was in St Clement Angus
John GOWANS 50
Helen GOWANS 39
Winnie 18
James 13
Jane 12
George 10
Stewart 9
Willie 7
Lizzie 5
John 2
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Minnie Gowans BISSET b 1903 Dundee
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There is a prison record for him in 1901 Dundee. You would need to see the record to know what this was for, and how long he was in prison.
Possibly:
ILL-TREATMENT OF DUNDEE CHILDREN.
ILL-TREATMENT OF DUNDEE CHILDREN. CARTER CONVICTED. Before Sheriff Campbell Smith at Dundee to-day a carter named John Gowans, 151 Victoria Road, Dundee, denied charge having, between Ist Octobcr and December, wilfully ill-treated his three children,
13 December 1901
Dundee Evening Post
Dundee, Angus, Scotland
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Minnie Gowans BISSET b 1903 Dundee
Was going to post the same.
and also .......
JAMES GOWANS BISSET
Born 1907
282 / 4 / 1749
ST ANDREW (DUNDEE)
This would imply parents were not married in 1903 or in 1907.
Scotmum's post would suggest he had 3 children in 1901 - so was already married?
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1901 - ill treating his 3 children yet 1911 shows first child b 1903
He had another family - hence no marriage in 1902 - & reason Minnie was registered as Bisset
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He is single in the 1891 census ....
Possible marriage ......
GOWAN, JOHN
CAMPBELL, MAGGIE
1891
282 / 1 / 118
ST PETER
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? Three Gowans children with birth mother Campbell - born St Mary, Angus
Margaret Gowans 1892
John James Gowans 1893
Archibald Brown Gowans 1898
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1901 census Liff and Benvie, Angus
In the house of Catherine Campbell, 57, retired jute spinner
Margaret Gowans, 34, daughter, jute spinner, born Dundee
Maggie Gowans, 8, grand-daughter, born Dundee
John Gowans, 7, grand-son, born Dundee
Archibald Gowans, 2, grand-son, born Dundee
(No sign of the husband / father John Gowans)
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? Three Gowans children with birth mother Campbell - born St Mary, Angus
Margaret Gowans 1892
John James Gowans 1893
Archibald Brown Gowans 1898
just confirming I had decided on those three names too
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The daughter Margaret Gowans married in 1915 to William Milne
The marriage certificate names her father as John Nichols Gowan, lorry driver; and mother Margaret Campbell.
Her birth cert, detail as posted ...
John's occupation is a match for the 1891 census for John Nicoll Gowan
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Looking for a marriage of John Nicoll Gowans and Helen nee Bisset.
I think it is now apparent that no marriage ever took place between Helen and John.
John Nicoll Gowans was already married to Margaret Campbell, and had 3 children with her, before starting another family with Helen Bisset.
The 1891 marriage certificate for John to Margaret Campbell will give his parents’ names, and therefore confirm it is the correct John Gowan.
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Thank you all. I will investigate further following these replies. I may be back!!!
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There's a death of Margaret Campbell, other surname Gowans, in Lochee in 1940 aged 74.
You need to look at that death and at the 1891 marriage to see if they match and if so whether or not they were divorced. If not, then maybe John and Helen were never actually formally married, because that would have meant John committing bigamy.
Bigamy was a criminal offence, but inventing a non-existent marriage on a child's birth certificate was not.
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Talk about being confused. Despite the marriage date of Margaret Campbell and John Gowans being on one of their children's birth certificate, there is no marriage for them on Scotland's People AND his death certificate show him as having been married to Margaret Campbell.
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They wouldn't have been the first or only couple to have massaged the truth :)
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Talk about being confused. Despite the marriage date of Margaret Campbell and John Gowans being on one of their children's birth certificate, there is no marriage for them on Scotland's People AND his death certificate show him as having been married to Margaret Campbell.
See reply #17
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Talk about being confused.
I am not sure why there is confusion. After looking at the records yesterday, it was clear that he had not married Helen, because he was already married. You have just confirmed this through acquiring another record.
There was (and is) nothing unusual about a married couple splitting up, and having children with a different partner, or common law spouse.
This is the marriage (already posted)
GOWAN, JOHN
CAMPBELL, MAGGIE
1891
282 / 1 / 118
ST PETER
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OK final question. I have Elizabeth Gowans birth record 1915 showing John Gowans as Father, Helen Bisset as mother . Both signed the register yet Elizabeth is illegitimate. How does that work out?
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It means John & Helen were not married.
They weren’t trying to hide the fact.
They both signed the register. (As if the father is going to be put on the cert of an illegitimate child he has to sign)
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A couple more details ….
In 1911 census 64 Blackness Rd Dundee
Margaret Gowans (John’s legal wife) age 42, Jute winder, still records herself as married. 3 children born – 2 still living.
Her daughter Margaret is the only other person in the household.
On 17 Sept 1915 when the daughter Margaret married, she names her father as John Nichols Gowans a lorry driver. So the occupation of lorry driver matches that with the birth of Elizabeth in August 1915.
Both families were living in Dundee by then, and probably knew of each other.
I would imagine that John would have been paying some kind of child support to his first family and wife.
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OK final question. I have Elizabeth Gowans birth record 1915 showing John Gowans as Father, Helen Bisset as mother . Both signed the register yet Elizabeth is illegitimate. How does that work out?
Proof positive that John and Helen were not married.
The law assumes that a mother's husband is the father of her child, unless she declares otherwise. If the birth is illegitimate, the father's name can only be recorded on the original birth certificate if he accompanies the mother when she goes to register the birth, and signs it alongside her.
So when you see both parents signing a certificate it means they were not married.
Also, a married mother's name is always recorded as xxx yyy M[aiden] S[urname] zzz, where xxx is her given name, yyy is her husband's surname and zzz is her maiden surname. In this certificate she is just xxx zzz, again proving that she isn't married.