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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: DanielSC20 on Saturday 10 August 24 21:48 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Hoping for some help with this as this man and his wife have been elluding me for years.
My 4th great-grandfather was William Owens (c. 1840-1918); his parents were Jacob Owens and Agnes Kennedy Richmond, according to his two marriage and death certificates. I haven't been able to find any information on them apart from what is shown on the certificates.
In 1860, William married his first wife; Barbara Richmond, yes, same last name as his mother. Her mother's maiden name was also Richmond, so I presume there is some three-way relationship there however I haven't really been able to get further than Barbara's grandparents on that side. Anyway, in 1860 both William's parents are alive, and Jacob is listed as a soldier.
Barbara died in 1870 and in 1871 William marries again, to Elizabeth Ross/Rofs. At this time, his mother is listed as deceased but his father is still alive and a miner.
When William dies in 1918, his parents are both deceased of course and his father's last occupation is a journeyman blacksmith.
Looking at deaths for Jacob Owens, seemingly there are only four in the whole of Scotland, neither of them fit my gentleman though. As for Agnes, I think there is only one death which could've fit, in 1861 aged 38. I have looked at this certificate however and it doesn't match my woman.
I know these are the right names as William names two of his children Jacob and Agnes. Any help would be appreciated.
Daniel
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Where do the censuses say William was born?
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1851 onwards b Kilmarmock. 1851 he is an 11yr old servant
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Been looking at this all morning and not coming up with anything ::)
GR2 William Owens is listed as being born Kilmarnock on census forms his residence is
Kilmaurs Ayrshire ..There are a lot of trees that has the death for his mother Agnes 1861
Maybe Daniel could post the information from the death certificate ?
Rosie
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Sorry all, been busy and have forgotten to reply here. I can post Agnes's death certificate.
Censuses say he was born in Kilmarnock; though the 1891 census says Kilmaurs. I have checked parish records with no luck, nor for his parents marriage.
Jacob Owens seems like a very rare name and there have seemingly only been a handful in Scotland. There is two Jacob Owens born in the 1820s which is as close as it gets, but neither of them are viable. I should note they were both born to the same parents if I remember correctly, so likely that the elder brother died and the younger was named for him.
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Yes I had worked out Agnes Kennedy Richmond was married to Hugh Laurie going by the 1861 census .
Did you view the marriage in 1860 for Agnes Kennedy Richmond to Hugh Laurie ?
There is always a possibility Agnes Kennedy Richmond was not married to Jacob Owens
Rosie
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I actually haven't viewed that; but I should.
I got the marriage certificate; she only writes Agnes K Richmond, tho' her mothers maiden name is Kennedy. She is 36 and a widow but does not sign with her married name. Hugh is 43 and a widower.
Looking at Old Parish records, an Agnes Kennedy Richmond marries James Wylie in Irvine in 1850. I can't seem to find a death for him between these years.
I also tried to have a look at the Kirk Sessions for Agnes but with no success.
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Do you have William's c1840 birth record? Do you have him in the 1841 census?
Have you looked into the woman (and daughter) he's living with in 1851?
Her name is Marion Spencer (age 21, dressmaker).
Could there be a family connection between William and Marion Spencer?
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I have looked for William's birth in the Parish records with no success, and I haven't been able to find him in 1841 either.
I have considered that and I will look into it. One of my thoughts was that he could perhaps be doing work for a neighbour but having looked at the census his family are not nearby.
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As William gives three different occupations for father Jacob leads me to think that he's fictitious.
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I can't make out Agnes's place of residence on her marriage but I did see a copy of the marriage of William Owens on someone's tree and his place of marriage looks like the same ..Will have another look I couldn't find anything on the Kirk Records either ..I think this Agnes could be Williams mother
Rosie
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I think there is some truth to Jacob. Maybe forged occupations but I think the name is probably right.
The location looks the same, and, if I'm not mistaken, I believe the marriage date and place is the same too, which is interesting. Both married February 24, 1860 at Kilth(?) Place, Kilmaurs (though by different Ministers; William & his wife were married by the Minister of Kilmaurs while Agnes & her husband were married by the Minister of Kilmarnock).
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It certainly looks like the same place I think she is Williams mother he states she is alive in 1860 on his first marriage .On his second marriage she is deceased Jacob Owens is most probably his father but I don't think there was ever a marriage
Have you got Agnes on the 1851 census ?
Rosie
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I did try to look for the 1851 census but couldn't find it. At that time Agnes would've been married to James Wylie as aforementioned, and I haven't been able to find a death record for him. He must've died before 1860 as Agnes is a widow at that times.
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I will have a look tomorrow I'm sure I have came across her but in saying that have looked at so many Agnes's ;D
Rosie
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I got the marriage certificate; she only writes Agnes K Richmond, tho' her mothers maiden name is Kennedy. She is 36 and a widow but does not sign with her married name.
Legally, a married woman does not lose her maiden surname on marriage. It's quite common to find a wife or widow in the census under her own maiden surname.
I have looked for William's birth in the Parish records with no success
Before the start of civil registration most deaths went unrecorded. The exceptions are if the person died in a parish where burial records were kept, or if there is a gravsetone, or if the death was announced in a newspaper.
Censuses say he was born in Kilmarnock; though the 1891 census says Kilmaurs.
Is that the original document, or a transcription that may be wrong?
As William gives three different occupations for father Jacob leads me to think that he's fictitious.
What are the three occupations?
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The 3 occupations mentioned are
Soldier
Miner
Blacksmith Journeyman
Rosie
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The 1891 census was a mistranscription, apologies. So all censuses say Kilmarnock.
I am fairly confident that Agnes is his mother. Now just the identity of his father...
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There is an Agnes Richmond aged 15 employed as a female servant at Low Armsheugh ( a farm I suspect) in Irvine on 1841 Census. ( Her age may have been rounded down as many were on the 1841)
James and Agnes Wyllie ( spelt with 2 L's) are at Cotton Row, Irvine on the 1851 Census - Agnes's place of birth is Symington, Ayrshire. Agnes is recorded as 27 years old. James is 40.
William Owens is aged 11 at Kilmaurs on 1851 Census but in fact he is living at the village of Crosshouse in Kilmaurs Parish.
This means Agnes could have been around 15/16 years old when she gave birth.
Looby
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Does William Owens marry Barbara Ross at the same place and on the same day as his mother Agnes Kennedy Richmond marries Hugh Laurie?
24th February 1860?
Looby
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William gives his age as 19 when he marries in Feb 1860.
If this age is correct he would not have been born until sometime after Feb 1841. He might not have been born until after the 1841 Census which could explain why he can't be found on it .
How consistent is he with ages on Censuses?
Looby
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Does William Owens marry Barbara Ross at the same place and on the same day as his mother Agnes Kennedy Richmond marries Hugh Laurie?
24th February 1860?
Looby
His marriage was the same residence as Agnes Kennedy Richmond ( mother )
And it was Barbara Richmond he married
Rosie
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James and Agnes Wyllie ( spelt with 2 L's) are at Cotton Row, Irvine on the 1851 Census - Agnes's place of birth is Symington, Ayrshire. Agnes is recorded as 27 years old. James is 40.
Looby
Yes I would say this is the same Agnes
Rosie
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William gives his age as 19 when he marries in Feb 1860.
If this age is correct he would not have been born until sometime after Feb 1841. He might not have been born until after the 1841 Census which could explain why he can't be found on it .
How consistent is he with ages on Censuses?
Looby
All census records have him born 1841
Rosie
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Does William Owens marry Barbara Ross at the same place and on the same day as his mother Agnes Kennedy Richmond marries Hugh Laurie?
24th February 1860?
Looby
Apologies - Brain was frazzled :o
It is indeed Barbara Richmond that William Owens marries on 24/2/1860
And Agnes Richmond marries Hugh Laurie on the same day at same place.
Looby
His marriage was the same residence as Agnes Kennedy Richmond ( mother )
And it was Barbara Richmond he married
Rosie
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I think we have found the correct mother it's the father Jacob Owens that's the problem .Obviously never been a marriage and nothing matching on census records for him ???
Rosie
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( Her age may have been rounded down as many were on the 1841)
The instructions to enumerators in 1841 were that the age of everyone aged 15 or more was to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
Some (a minority) of enumerators failed to adhere to this instruction, whih is good news for us 183 years on :)
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I think we have found the correct mother it's the father Jacob Owens that's the problem .Obviously never been a marriage and nothing matching on census records for him ???
Rosie
It is odd that there are two Jacob Owens in Kilmarnock - Jacob was not such a common name and Jacob Owens is even more uncommon.
The two Jacobs are too young at 12 on1841 Census to be putative fathers.
One of the Jacob's is recorded as being 24 on 1851 Census - the other is 23.
Looby
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I think we have found the correct mother it's the father Jacob Owens that's the problem .Obviously never been a marriage and nothing matching on census records for him ???
Rosie
It is odd that there are two Jacob Owens in Kilmarnock - Jacob was not such a common name and Jacob Owens is even more uncommon.
The two Jacobs are too young at 12 on1841 Census to be putative fathers.
One of the Jacob's is recorded as being 24 on 1851 Census - the other is 23.
Looby
Exactly ;)
Rosie
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There is also a Jacob Owen, aged 20, in Old Monkland. He could of course be any age from 20 to 24, and the right age of father a child on 1840-ish.
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A lot of messages here in the past few hours!
It is possible he was born after the 1841 census. On all censuses apart from 1851 he consistently ages 10 years and is on a 0 at each census, which would make me guess 1841. It makes sense his birthdate is off a bit on 1851 given he wasn't with his family.
Thank you for finding James & Agnes Wylie, that was elluding me. I am now sure that this Agnes is William's mother.
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Thank you for finding James & Agnes Wylie, that was elluding me. I am now sure that this Agnes is William's mother.
Agree :)
Rosie
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A very helpful person found these for me, Jacob & Agnes in the Kirk sessions January 1841.
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That's great getting these records ..
I noticed this marriage and wondered
Jacob Owens
Susan Bell
7 June 1850
Kilmarnock Ayr
Can't seem to find them on census records so far
Rosie
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I did wonder that however the kirk session noted that Jacob had left the area.