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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: NorthernGeezer on Saturday 27 July 24 17:02 BST (UK)
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Searching the 1939 Register for my grandmother, I have found her in 3 places, in Gateshead with her mother, In Manchester with one daughter and also in Manchester with another completely different daughter.
I know which one is correct as the address ties in with her death 27 years later but how has this happened??
I'm pretty sure she never got to Gateshead because she is listed as working and single when in fact she was a housewife with 3 young children, not sure about the 2 in Manchester but I'm thinking the register was complied on different days maybe.
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It only wanted the person who filled in the form to add her, I doubt they would have wanted to see she was resident
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But 3 times in 3 different places??
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Perhaps someone was trying to beat the system and get extra Ration Books. ???
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Are the three sightings definitely her? Is the date of birth the same in the three sightings?
If her mother moved to Gateshead, she may have misunderstood and recorded her daughter.
Similarly one of the two daughters may have added her. She might have spent her time moving between them, who knows.
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The only person who will know the truth is granny. How do you know for sure that she was at the address in 1939 that she was living when she died
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The one in Gateshead has the right DOB but the wrong details, she is listed as single and working as a short hand typist along with 2 other sisters where in fact she was married and living in Manchester with her husband and 3 children, one of which is my mother.
Her mother is listed as head of the household but I'm not sure this is true, she moved from Barrow to Gateshead after her husband buggered off to pastures new to live with her married daughter so I'm assuming the husband is head of the household but not listed.
Now there is something else amiss in Gateshead, the 3 daughters are all listed as single and as short hand typists, one of the daughters is also married so something fishy is going on here.
The one I think it is in Manchester is the right address, my grandad is listed and an aunt, my mother and her brother are not listed, mum would be 3 and her brother 8. The address listed is the one I have visited many times in the 50s and 60s.
The other address is 10 miles the other side of town and that record also has both grandparents on it and my mother, but again, not her brother and sister.
I'm thinking Jebber may have a point about a bit of funny business going on here.
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Oh yeah, the DOB on both records in Manchester are wrong!
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Have you thought about looking in the newspapers? It may be worth looking to see if anyone with their names appear in the papers around about that time, or shortly after.
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Or..it never ceases to amaze me how many families can have the same combinations of names. And it is just a fluke that she seems to appear three times.
Have you tried researching the other family groups just to confirm they couldn’t be anyone else?
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Oh yeah, the DOB on both records in Manchester are wrong!
How wrong are the DOBs? I have found quite a number exactly 1 year out, as if the person knew what day their birthday fell on, and calculated the year of birth from what age they thought they were.
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Could great grandma in Gateshead be suffering some sort of memory issues and think her daughters were still living with her and unmarried?
That doesn't explain the two almost duplicated Manchester households of course.
As to the children in Manchester not showing, could they be redacted because they were born less than a 100 years ago and not known to be deceased?
Are there any notes in the margin of the register added after 1939 which might give some sort of clue as to what might be happening?
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Surely it's got to be the Wards at 69 Pottersway in Gateshead!
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One of the other addresses in 1939 seems to be 25 Banff Road, Manchester - the Brown family!
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Have you thought about looking in the newspapers?
References to Wards at 69 Pottersway, earliest so far is 1929
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69 Pottersway Gateshead is the correct address for my great grandmother, the DOB of the 3 girls "living" there are correct.
Further research yesterday has found that Kathleen never married and Violet married an Edward Hills in 1941 although the surname WARD is crossed out and replaced with HILLS.
I'm assuming that Violet moved to Gateshead to live with Edward and once Margaret's hubby buggered off, her and Kathleen went to live with her.
However, It still makes me wonder why my grandmother Eileen is listed as she married my grandfather George in 1932 and moved to Manchester.
25 Banff Road is the correct Brown family, namely Eileen, George, and Margaret (my mother), I don't know who Cecelia Whitehead (Ward) is so some research needed there, I was hoping she may have been a sister of Kenneth Ward, Margaret's absent husband but thats not the case, and why is Kathleen on here as well as on the Gateshead one?
The 3rd record is for 7 Fishermore Road Urmston Manchester, listing George, Eileen and Patricia a daughter, no sign of my mother or a brother listed, incidentaly, Eileens DOB is wrong too, listed as 20/07/11914 when it is actually 30/12/1913.
So, the mystery continues ::) .......... Dont you just love genealogy ;D
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Thanks for that John. ;D
Looking at those 2 records I doubt that it would be unusual for duplicates to happen in that situation. Not being alive then it is difficult to pass comment about it but I can't see that once the register was taken people would be stopped from moving around the country, it can't have been like Covid ;D
Unfortunately the forms are not dated so we don't know which was completed first and they obviously did not have a 'fixed' date like a census. We can only assume what the circumstances were. Just think how many times we find people enumerated more than once on a census, it was not unusual.
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Update: 2 other daughters also, Barbara Ward, DOB 1918 so she would have been 21 in 1939, no sign of her in Gateshead so more work needed to see where she was, the bit I know already is she emigrated to New Zealand in 1949, is listed as single and died over there.
The other daughter, Dorothy ward DOB 1916 is listed as died in Gateshead in 1999 so where was she in 1939 aged 23, more work required on that one too.
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I suppose in the grand scheme of things none of it really matters and just go on the things I know, or suspect I know, that the Brown family consisting of George, Eileen, William, Patricia and my mother Margaret DID live in Manchester and that Eileen's mother Margaret DID live in Gateshead, everything else is just jam on the butty eh ::)
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The perils of having a common surname eh mckha489, my surname is Davis, formerly Davies, family from Hereford near the Welsh border and that's caused me no end of problems, Thomas and James a common family name through out but finding a 4x great grandfather called Uvedale was a beacon of light in a cloudy sky ;D
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I don't know who Cecelia Whitehead (Ward) is so some research needed there, I was hoping she may have been a sister of Kenneth Ward, Margaret's absent husband but thats not the case, and why is Kathleen on here as well as on the Gateshead one?
Cecilia Veronica Rogan married in Blackburn district in 1910, one of the possible grooms is James Ward. I have found three Ward children with Rogan as mmn
Annie 1912 Cockermouth, Eileen M 1914 Tynemouth and Therese F 1925 Cockermouth, and a Kathleen V Ward 1918 Cockermouth mmn listed as Regan.
There seem to be some similar forenames here.
Cecilia Ward married a Harold Whiteoak in Manchester in 1941 and Annie Ward married John G Lally in 1940 in Manchester.
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Cecilia and James also have an earlier child reg Q1 1911 Cecilia M born Blackburn.
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... I doubt that it would be unusual for duplicates to happen in that situation. Not being alive then it is difficult to pass comment about it but I can't see that once the register was taken people would be stopped from moving around the country, it can't have been like Covid.
... We can only assume what the circumstances were.
I know of several cases where people were not where you might expect and mistakes were made. Some remained where they needed to be for work. My mother and sister had left a Yorkshire town to stay with her uncle in rural Lincolnshire. Their surname was mis-spelled. Meanwhile the aunt's mother had a stroke and arrived there from Nottingham with another daughter. It was a bit crowded and my family went back shortly afterwards, but to my grandparents.
The town's Director of Education was not at home but apparently staying with friends nearby, while his wife was with friends in rural Wales. A gt gt aunt left Woolwich, London, to stay with her brother in the Peak District, Derbyshire. A recent thread on here showed mother and 3 children moving from London to Luton, while her partner remained, staying in a pub which somehow added 20 years to his age.
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I think we have two families, James and Cecilia Ward and children, and Kenneth and Margaret Ward and children, some of whom have the same forenames as J and C's,
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I think you right LizzieL, there are instances in the family tree's on Ancestry where the Rogan name crops up but for obvious reasons I dismissed them.
I am happy that Kenneth Alderson Ward and Margaret Eleanor Baker (Ward) are my correct descendants, I'll have to do some double checking with the children to eliminate the James and Cecilia tribe.
Thanks to everyone for your help, much appreciated.
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The 1939 Register WAS taken on a fixed date - 29 Sep 1939, as per TNA's guide:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/#2-when-and-why-the-register-was-compiled (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/#2-when-and-why-the-register-was-compiled)
The Streatham News had an article on its front page on September 29, 1939, explaining that it was that evening the head of household was to record all the people who spent the night there that night. You can see the clipping here:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/162cb9ce-c70e-4ecf-b1a0-50bdae93f2cd (https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/162cb9ce-c70e-4ecf-b1a0-50bdae93f2cd)
Many other newspapers had similar articles.
Now, whether or not everyone followed the instructions is debatable, but the Register was meant to reflect who was in each household on September 29.
<SNIP>
Unfortunately the forms are not dated so we don't know which was completed first and they obviously did not have a 'fixed' date like a census. We can only assume what the circumstances were. Just think how many times we find people enumerated more than once on a census, it was not unusual.
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I think its clear not everyone followed these instructions fhtess1165, given i can place some relatives in 3 places and other relatives not listed at all, even allowing for families with people in them with the same name.
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It was ever thus. I too have seen people enumerated multiple times on censuses.
I think its clear not everyone followed these instructions fhtess1165, given i can place some relatives in 3 places and other relatives not listed at all, even allowing for families with people in them with the same name.
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I think its clear not everyone followed these instructions fhtess1165, given i can place some relatives in 3 places and other relatives not listed at all, even allowing for families with people in them with the same name.
I think you have two families, one of which may have been recorded in two places. Are you certain who Eileen's parents were?
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Yes LizzieL, I have Eileen's birth certificate Showing Kenneth and Margaret Ward.
I think your right about the 2 similar families ::)
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Have you got her marriage certificate to your grandfather?
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REVELATION!!!!!!..................I have her marriage certificate, yes, and her fathers name is listed as James Ward (Deceased) Blimey :o :o :o :o I've been barking up the wrong tree, I'm gonna have to start again with this, Kenneth has been at the forefront of my enquiries and it seems I've been looking in the wrong place all the time!!!!!
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So her parents are actually James and Cecilia. The family at the address you visited years ago
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It would appear so ::)
So the American connection is no more, it looks like that side of the family is Irish.
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I cant believe I didn't spot this, my mothers middle name is.................CECILIA!!!!!
I've been blindsided and it just goes to show.....................STICK TO THE VIDENCE AND RECORDS!!!!!!
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Dismissing the Gateshead connection, It still poses the question that the 1939 Register shows them at 25 Banff Road and 7 Fishermore Road.
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Maybe
Marriage, Sep 1947 Gateshead 1a 2362
Atkinson, William - spouse Ward
Ward, Eileen M. - spouse Atkinson
Death
Jun 1983 Newcastle upon Tyne 2 816
Atkinson, Eileen Mary
d-o-b 30 Dec 1913
There is probate for her in 1983, an administration with will. She died 1st April.
Birth was
WARD, EILEEN MARY
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAKER
GRO Reference: 1914 M Quarter in BARROW IN FURNESS Volume 08E Page 1395
Our Eileen Brown, nee Ward, had a different middle name
WARD, EILEEN MARGARET
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROGAN
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 632
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Working back from my grandmothers marriage certificate which I physically have, Eileen Margaret Wardmarried George Banham Brown 10th December 1932, father listed as James Ward, deceased.
Research yesterday evening puts the potential mother as Rogan so something to work on, however, Ancestry shows the potential James Ward father as dying in 1942 AND Eillen as a child born in Ireland!!.....It aint easy this genealogy lark is it ::)
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however, Ancestry shows the potential James Ward father as dying in 1942 AND Eillen as a child born in Ireland!!.....It aint easy this genealogy lark is it ::)
Do you mean Ancestry shows an actual record of Eileen's birth in Ireland (with mother's maiden name Cecilia Rogan) rather than Tynemouth as both I (reply #20) and Jonw65 found (reply #36). Or do you mean someone's TREE on Ancestry has Eileen born in Ireland?
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If you have access to 1921 census only available on FindMyPast, you can easily find your Eileen. Remember her mother's name is Cecilia, not a common name.
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If you have access to 1921 census only available on FindMyPast, you can easily find your Eileen. Remember her mother's name is Cecilia, not a common name.
You can search FindMyPast without a subscription and buy a copy of the image for around 50 pence
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Cecilia's name has been transcribed as Cecila,
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I don't know who Cecelia Whitehead (Ward) is so some research needed there, I was hoping she may have been a sister of Kenneth Ward, Margaret's absent husband but thats not the case, and why is Kathleen on here as well as on the Gateshead one?
Cecilia Veronica Rogan married in Blackburn district in 1910, one of the possible grooms is James Ward. I have found three Ward children with Rogan as mmn
Annie 1912 Cockermouth, Eileen M 1914 Tynemouth and Therese F 1925 Cockermouth, and a Kathleen V Ward 1918 Cockermouth mmn listed as Regan.
There seem to be some similar forenames here.
Cecilia Ward married a Harold Whiteoak in Manchester in 1941 and Annie Ward married John G Lally in 1940 in Manchester.
Bearing in mind Cecilia Rogan and James Ward married in Blackburn in 1910, they can be found in 1911 with first child (who presumably died before 1921). Now you can see the Irish connection.
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Now you have James age, place of birth and occupation, he is easily found in 1921.
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I would guess he's an ex-serviceman suffering from TB, so maybe looking for a death in Carlisle district.
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Now I think a death in Q3 1930 Cockermouth seems more likely
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7 Fishermore Road.
Sadly, when George Brown of Fishermore Road was driving his bus one day in 1940 he mistook an elderly woman for a white cat.
He slammed on his breaks, but it wasn't enough :(
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Manchester Evening News, 3 March 1950
Birthday Memories
One from George Brown and family (attached)
Here it says 7 Fishermore Avenue
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Lizzie,
#Reply 39, Ancestry automatically inserted a James Ward from Ireland and an Eileen Margaret Ward but with no corroborating evidence, it looked wrong due the the fact she was the only child of 12 born there and it gave a death date for James as 1942 when Eileen's marriage certificate in 1932 shows him as deceased, so I dismissed it straight away.
#Reply 44, it seems the death date in 1930 for James is probably right, it certainly fits with Eileen's marriage certificate.
# Reply 39 & Rosie #Reply 40, thanks for the advice, i'll do just that.
# Reply 42, I'm happy with EVERYTHING you have unearthed here ;D
# Reply 44, I'll search for service records of James and order up his death certificate from GRO.
# Reply 45, WOW JONW..............Right of the blue!!!
I spoke to an aunt when I read this and she had never heard this story, its a big shock :o
Weirdly, there's a family story that George, who was 27 at the outbreak of WW2, was a fireman at Shell Chemicals in Carrington during the conflict and was therefore in a reserved occupation, why was he still driving buses in 1940??
# Reply 46, That'll be for his mother Ada Mary Brown who was born 31st March 1884.
So, a lot to work on and I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this, as you all probably know without this kind of help, some of us would really struggle ::)
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Now you have James age, place of birth and occupation, he is easily found in 1921.
Not so easy it seems, I've inputted his data in to FindMyPast and got no results, I've tried the same with Cecilia/Cecila, again no results, I've tried the same with Eileen and bingo, got the family but no James.
Cecilia is listed as head and married and the 3 girls are there, the first child, Cecilia born in 1911 is not there, presumably died, so, where is James??
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Just spotted something, Eileen is listed as being born in Northern Island, not Tynemouth ::)
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Island????.................IRELAND ::)
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Also, whilst the census lists there place of birth, it is not clear from the document where the census itself actually took place, no address, no town, nothing to identify where it is.
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Ah, got it, there's a page 2, its Workington ::)
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GOT HIM!!!!!............well kind of, he's in Carlisle on a census with 25 other blokes, its page 2 of the census and page one isn't included for some reason.
Job descriptions range from joiners, gardeners, masons, he's the only one with a medical profession, a hospital maybe??
I'm assuming he's not estranged from Cecilia, its 30 miles away so he could either be commuting daily or staying over in the week.
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See reply #44
And see employer of the matron.
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I read that as MASON ::)
So, not an employee..............he's a patient :o
I think what makes it all the more shocking is he lived with that condition another 9 years, he died in 1930.