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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: kathy-9 on Thursday 25 July 24 10:34 BST (UK)
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Can anyone tell me which regiment and who these people might be? I am pretty certain the sergeant is my grandfather, Robert Eglington.
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The men seem to be soldiers from the first world war era, the Balmoral or Tam-o-shanter hat
indicates that they are in a Scottish Regiment & the trousers & Puttees (instead of a kilt) perhaps indicates that they a lowland regiment but see this reference for more info:
http://scottishmilitaryresearch.weebly.com/uploads/7/3/9/1/73918079/scottish_military_research_using_family_photographs.pdf
It is a pity that the photo doesn't show a cap badge as this would give a precise indication of which Regiment they were from.
There is also a Rootschat board for armed forces queries - why not try posting the photo there as well as there is more military expertise there.
Good luck!
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Thx Rhonda. Yes it’s a real shame there is no cap badge. I will try the Armed Forces board too.
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I totally agree with Ronda but, taking a closer look, my opinion is, these men were not front-line soldiers. Most of them look too old, perhaps they were in the Labour Corps? They should have been wearing cap badges, could it be the picture was taken at an angle that just excludes the badges? They would have been on the men's left side of the cap.
The criteria required to be in the Labour Corps was, men who weren't fit enough to carry a full pack 5? miles or, deaf in one ear, blind in one eye or have very poor sight. Some of these men do not look fit or able-bodied.
Taking a closer look, I do think they are wearing cap-badges.
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A scottish regiment by the hats but they could be a variety of things. The age of the soldiers suggests not front line which is backed up by the leather belts which were not the 1908 webbing ones worn by the Regular Army. They might be a 3rd line (ie UK based) battalion or even a 1917-18 Volunteer Battalion (think WW1 Home Guard).
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the leather belts which were not the 1908 webbing ones worn by the Regular Army. They might be a 3rd line (ie UK based) battalion or even a 1917-18 Volunteer Battalion (think WW1 Home Guard).
The belts in the picture were also worn by the Labour Corps in WWI.
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Please get away form the Labour Corps theme as it is a red herring. The Labour Corps consisted of the non-front line fit who wore khaki peaked caps and the GS Coat of Arms cap badge and soldiers who were reclassified as down-graded often after wounding. These soldiers often wore their former regiments hat and badges. You see a huge variety of headgear of such units. However they did not all wear scottish hats as in this picture.
This picture is of a Scottish unit wearing uniformal headdress so they were raised as a Scottish unit.
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Having blown to the picture of the only visible cap badge, it is too blurred to be clear but it is not one of the Scottish Infantry cap badges which were all (less one) made in white metal and were large badges.
Your men may well be wearing the brass General Service cap badges. There were worn by a variety of units (including the Labour Corps before then go their own badge) but by the 1916-18 Volunteer Force who wore the GS badge.
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Please get away form the Labour Corps theme as it is a red herring. The Labour Corps consisted of the non-front line fit who wore khaki peaked caps and the GS Cost of Arms cap badge and soldiers who were reclassified as down-graded often after wounding. These soldiers often wore their former regiments hat and badges. You see a huge variety of headgear of such units. However they did not all wear scottish hats as in this picture.
This picture is of a Scottish unit wearing uniformal headdress so they were raised as a Scottish unit.
Here is a picture taken early in 1918, somewhere in France. It is a group of men from the 5th Labour Corps. I don't see any khaki peaked caps. I don't understand the meaning of "GS Cost of Arms".
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Here is the Labour Corp badge 1916 - 1919.
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No that's not correct I am afraid. They wore the GS badge until late 1918.
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/307142-labour-corps-badge/
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They are wearing the large white metal Cameron Highlanders cap badge. Some infantry battalions were nominated as Pioneer Battalions but they wore the infantry cap badge.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/
So 5th labour corps was a formation and made up of a variety of units. The Labour Corps is not a formation but a Corps in the same way that there is a Corps of Engineers or Army Ordnance Corps.
So back to the original photo is not a Scottish infantry cap badge. If they were a Scottish Pioneer Battalion in a Labour Formation then they would be wearing the infantry cap badge.
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A slightly better partial image of the chap with the cap badge:
(http://)
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Unfortunately as the majority of soldiers' records were destroyed in WW2 unless he served in France or another theatre of war then you may struggle to find any paperwork.
Volunteer Training Corps did not have personnel records like the Regular Army.
If he did serve overseas then their should be a medal card which would give you his unit when he earned the medal. If he was in the Volunteer Force or a Battalion that never left the UK then there will not be a medal roll entry.
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To approach it from a different angle, where was your grandfather from and when was he born?
Looking at the newspapers (1910 - 1919), two military Robert Eglintons appear.
Stirling Observer, 17-11-1914 - A list of men associated with the Erskine Church in Stirling who are serving etc. : includes Robert Eglinton, address Married Quarters, A.P.C. (Army Pay Corps?)
There is also a Robert Eglinton, alias Thomas Robert Eglinton, alias Thomas Bradley, who was serving in a "Scottish regiment" and was convicted of theft at Luton, Torquay and Paignton. The Police Gazette reports him being charged again for "improperly wearing military uniform". According to the report (1-5-1917) he was aged 27, a labourer or soldier, and a native of London.
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Thank you all for such wonderful information. It has been a delight to read all the information from each of you and has inspired me to find out more about my grandfather.
Robert Eglington was born in Norwich 1870(ish?) and ran away from home, story goes there were too many children in the family, 14! I don’t understand the connection with Scotland and Stirling, but he joined up when he was 16, lied about his age.
He served in many places, I believe e Egypt was one of them.
I believe he was governor of Stirling prison.
He married Martha Sanderson and lived in Stirling till his death 1961. (Ish?).
I know he had medals, uit these are lost to me.
Thank you.
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Where could I find out about Robert’s medals?
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Robert Eglington aged 88 (i.e. born c. 1884) died in Stirling in 1972. For a small fee you can download his death certificate from ScotlandsPeople [scotlandspeople.gov.uk]. This should give you his occupation, date of birth, his wife's name and the names of both his parents.
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Where could I find out about Robert’s medals?
If that is him in the photo then he is not wearing any medal ribbons at that time. If he is the man born in Norfolk and was in the Army before WW1 as you suggest then he would have enlisted in 1900 but as he is not wearing any Boer War medals, he did not serve in the war in South Africa. He married Martha in Stirling in 1913 so it is likely he served his term of 12 years and then left and got married.
If he had joined his local infantry battalion for Stirling in WW1 he would have joined the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders but that is definately not the A&SH cap badge as it was very large.
If he did mange to make it to France or similar in WW1 then he would have had been entitled to the British War Medal and Victory medal. There will be a medal card for him in the National Archives which someone like Ancestry will have access to. That will give you his regiment and possibly date of entry to France.
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I believe he was governor of Stirling prison.
He married Martha Sanderson and lived in Stirling till his death 1961. (Ish?).
I know he had medals, uit these are lost to me.
Thank you.
Kathy
If you are certain that he WW1 medals then that combined with his Prison Service would narrow the candidates down to one person. There are only a couple of soldiers with his name who were awarded medals. One forfeited his medals (possibly desertion) and another was only a Private.
There is only one other candidate and that is for a Staff Sergeant later a Warrent Officer who served with the Military Provost Staff Corps - think Army Prison Gaolars. That ties in nicely with their well polished boots and sharp creases in their trousers which is not typical of wartime photos.
The medal card is on Ancestry so I you want to see it then PM me with your email. In addition to the usual WW1 medals for overseas service he earned the Meritorious Service Medal in 1917 which was awared for meritous long service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritorious_Service_Medal_%28United_Kingdom%29
As for the Tam O Shanter I am at a loss as to why they are wearing them: perhaps that was the norm in the Army gaol in Stirling? it served as Scotland’s only Military Detention Barracks until 1935
https://www.yourstirling.com/stirling-old-town-jail/
The cap badge is as shown and matches the one in your scan.
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There will be a medal card for him in the National Archives which someone like Ancestry will have access to.
No need to faff about with Ancestry.
Go to the source: you can view medal cards free of charge on the National Archives web site. See https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=robert+eglington&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=
and in particular https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2722641
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deleted as file will not load.
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Hi, there is a page on ancestry which allows for the free download of medal cards
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1262/?name=robert_eglington&count=50
It seems that there are quite a few medal cards for different people with this name & also if you search on Eglinton, a similar number of different people are listed.
Ancestry search record + FamilySearch record (indicates George Robert Egington was a Sapper in the Royal Engineers) + Medal card from Royal Engineers
Best regards
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Hi, there is a page on ancestry which allows for the free download of medal cards
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1262/?name=robert_eglington&count=50
It seems that there are quite a few medal cards for different people with this name & also if you search on Eglinton, a similar number of different people are listed.
Ancestry search record + FamilySearch record (indicates George Robert Egington was a Sapper in the Royal Engineers) + Medal card from Royal Engineers
Best regards
That is not him as he is too old and finished the war as a Sapper and not an NCO. With the Stirling prison connection it would be a huge coincidence if it was any other other people with the same name.
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Hi all,
I think that the date of birth and Norwich connection carries quite a bit of weight.
This site also gives some possible links.
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/searchlives/eglinton/filter
Best regards
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The Robert Eglinton you want is the one with the number 1498. His record is available on Findmypast. He first joined the Prince of Wales' Own Norfolk Artillery (RGA) in 1902 and later transferred to the Military Provost Service Corps. He did serve in South Africa from 15 Dec 1902 to 26 May 1904. His marriage to Martha Sanderson was recorded as being at the Waverley Hotel, Stirling on 8 Oct 1913. His son Emerson William was born 24 April 1914 in Stirling.
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Andy
Thanks. So he was likely there as a reinforcement but arrived too late to qualify for the QSA medal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Artillery_Militia
If the OP can confirm the son's name is her family then that clinches it.
Alan
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Andy, you have cracked it, this is my grandfather Robert Eglington, just a few little variances on the family stories of Robert joining the army in Stirling. It makes much more sense for him to have joined up in Norfolk, his birthplace.
I still don’t know how he came to Stirling.
Interesting Robert and. Martha .. counting on my fingers my Uncle Emerson just made his birth into wedlock!!
Thank you all for your invaluable help, I have learned so much about Robert Eglington, and still more to go, an evening looking up his journey, and his medals.
Even tracking the badge on his hat, amazing!
Thank you all once again!
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As a post script:
Best regards
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Andy, you have cracked it, this is my grandfather Robert Eglington, just a few little variances on the family stories of Robert joining the army in Stirling. It makes much more sense for him to have joined up in Norfolk, his birthplace.
I still don’t know how he came to Stirling.
Interesting Robert and. Martha .. counting on my fingers my Uncle Emerson just made his birth into wedlock!!
Thank you all for your invaluable help, I have learned so much about Robert Eglington, and still more to go, an evening looking up his journey, and his medals.
Even tracking the badge on his hat, amazing!
Thank you all once again!
I think you can assume that when he tranferred in to the MPSC he was posted to Stirling by the Army as that was the only Military Prison in Scotland. He may have served in Malta and other stations prior to that. He original joined the local Norfolk militia which was part time and after being sent to South Africa decided to make a full time career of the Army.
He had at least 4 medals including the MSM as mentioned but also the 1914 Star so was in France or another active theatre of was before 1 January 1915.
Your original photo may well be pre war when he was a Sargeant in Stirling Military Prison.
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The Tam o' Shanter replaced the Glengarry in 1915.
https://theblackwatch.co.uk/blog/black-watch-history/this-story-of-the-t-o-s/
So the original photo was probably taken between 1915 and 1918 when he received the MSM.
Tony
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I am afraid to say that is true and shows that you Sgt is not Robert.
His medal card says he was in France in 1914 as a Staff Sgt.
If it was taken in 1918 he would have the 1914 ribbon on his tunic.
If you have matched Robert to the MPSC soldier by his marriage and child then that is a great result but that is not him in the photo.
I showed it to some more knowledgeable about the MPSC than me and they pointed out that the minimum rank for the MPSC was LCpl so those are not MPSC.
I am once again back to a photo taken in Scotland 1916-18 of a Volunteer Force group of soldiers who were exempt fro front line service. It is not Robert or his family in Norfolk so could it be an Anderson = the wife's father ot brother? What is the provenence of the photo?
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Can anyone explain ‘Military Provost’, what department would this be? And the other refs in the card? Is he indeed a Sergeant?Does Military Provost mean he would be a prison warden (still trying to find that link to Stirling Jail).
I imagine As Robert was born in 1872 he would be too old to serve in WW1?
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Alan O … awww I thought this was certainly my grandfather, certainly resembles him, tall blonde, moustache. The photo came from a great group on FB, Old Stirling, which has a tremendous amount of interesting photos posted.
There has been a great amount of information posted for me and so enjoyable to read
I wonder if he was working in Prison Service, would that have been his step from England to Stirling?and please, what is an MSPC?
Is there any way to access records of Stirling Prison?
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Kathy,
First of all here's an article on the National Army Museum website which explains what the MPSC is: https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/military-provost-staff-corps
And secondly I assume that you don't have a subscription to FindMyPast, as Robert's complete service record is available there. It consists of 13 pages. He did indeed serve in France, with the MPSC, from 9 October 1914 to 10 May 1919.
In case you do have a subscription, this link will take you straight to his record, once you have logged in: Robert Eglington (https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7272908%2F2%2F11&tab=this)
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I suspect he Army sent him to Stirling as part of his role in the MPSC to help run the Army's gaol there. His service record will tell you when.
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Yes Alan O is right. After he returned from South Africa he was stationed at Bordon followed by Colchester. Then in late 1910 he was posted to Malta for around 12 months. He came back to the UK and was in Aldershot until early 1913 when he moved to the Military Detention Centre Stirling. He deployed to France with the BEF, from Stirling via Southampton and Le Havre on 11 Oct 1914.
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Hi,
There is a memorial page on the Billion Graves website for a Robert Eglington died 1972 aged 86 (born circa 1886) with wife Martha Sanderson died 1957 aged 73 (born circa 1884), buried together with other family members, in Logie Church graveyard, Blairlogie, Stirling.
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Robert-Eglington/19417827
Also this website has graveyard burial details:
https://www.interment.net/data/scotland/stirling/logie/surnames-e-g.htm
EGLINGTON, Robert, Age: 88 YEARS, d. 2/10/1972, bur. 4/10/1972, Section: CEM, Row: A20, Number: 9
Together with details of other family members
regards
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The man stood on the extreme right of the rear rank (on top of the dilapidated bench) appears to be wearing three medals over his right breast pocket. The medals may belong to a deceased next of kin.
Are the medals WW1, Boer war or others?
If they are three WW1 medals, then the photo was taken after the medals were issued in the early 1920s.
Tony
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Tony, I would question that he is wearing medal ribbons. Certainly the white blob on the pocket flap is not the ribbons, since ribbons were worn above the pocket seam. And the fuzzy bit above the pocket which I assume you are referring to would be an awful lot of medals to occupy three rows. Also both 'blobs' have a fairly marked shadow under them suggesting that they are not flat but three dimensional (see image below).
That said I can't offer a better explanation for what these features are. It may be significant that although the photograph is relatively free from marks, the only apparent defect is the black dot on the same man's tunic pocket. And if these are the medals ribbons of a deceased relative, why aren't any of the other men wearing any ribbons at all? To be in the MPSC they must have volunteered to transfer after 1903 when the Corps was founded. The MPSC was only staffed by existing servicemen, and did not (and still does not) directly recruit civilians.
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I agree with Andy. Without knowing exactly where the photo came from I don't think it is possible to work out anymore.