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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: AUSSIE michelle on Saturday 13 July 24 08:20 BST (UK)
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In the last week I have broken down a brick wall of an ancestor
I discovered that
Joseph Mack IS ACTUALLY (I am 100%)
IS
Joseph Mack Liddle
BORN: June 19 1825 Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
DIED: Mar 3 1861 (at age 35) Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
NOW Joseph Mack went under Liddle name when traveling out to Australia with wife and son mary Jane & Joseph (on Death cert it was stated Joseph in Ballarat but was a toddler and born in Scotland I think??)
I had though they came on 1852 on Nepaul BUT thanks to a great person it is pointed out wrong people.
In Edinburgh he was a solicitor as was his dad Joseph Liddle S.S.C.
Both had the same name = Joseph Liddle and son is Joseph Mack Liddle
Does anyone have any information on these people please and WHY would Joseph drop the Liddle off his name and become Joseph Mack out here in Australia??
He was buried as Joseph Liddle in Bendigo BUT when in newspaper it appeared as Joseph Mack son of Joseph Liddle??
Any assistance would be appreciated please??
(I have spent 5 years on this and finally found the person)
Thanks Michelle
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Maybe there was another solicitor Liddle already where he went to live? Maybe Liddle meant something else then in Australia?
So can't yet answer your main question but here are a few snippets from Scottish newspapers which may be this family; the marriage is obviously Joseph senior.
Caledonian Mercury Marriage
1819 Greenburn Berwickshire on 11 current Mr Joseph Liddle solicitor Supreme Court to Mary Ann youngest daughter of William Bogue Esq of Greenburn
Caledonisn Mercury 15 Sep 1855
Death: John Liddle eldest son of Mr Jospeh Liddle SSC Edinburgh - At sea on his way to Australia
Birth 1853
At Adelaide South Australia on 2 AUgust last , Mrs Joseph Mack of a daughter
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There appears to be references to an accountant of that name in that era, rather than a solicitor, for example, this from the Edinburgh Evening Courant of 24 May 1861:
Died, at Sandhurst, Victoria, on 3d March, Mr JOSEPH MACK LIDDELL, late accountant, Edinburgh. Friends will please accept this intimation.
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"they registered Joseph in Ballarat but was a toddler and born in Scotland"
Using BDM VIC I am not seeing this birth registration.
Can you direct me to it please.
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In Edinburgh he was a solicitor as was his dad Joseph Liddle S.S.C.
Both had the same name
Were they both named Joseph Mack Little?
Does anyone have any information on these people please and WHY would Joseph drop the Liddle off his name and become Joseph Mack out here in Australia??
Have you found several documents with just Joseph Mack, or just the death announcement with Joseph Mack?
He was buried as Joseph Liddle in Bendigo BUT when in newspaper it appeared as Joseph Mack son of Joseph Liddle??
Could it have been an error in the announcement? Or, is it possible that he had a brother, also named Joseph? If so, did they simply drop the last name, but included the first and middle names for clarity - Joseph Mack rather than his brother, Joseph John (for example)? [I have several branches in my tree that did this - naming two sons after their father (both sons living through their younger years), and in one family, giving three sons the same first name (although I think the first son did pass away when he was very young).
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There appears to be references to an accountant of that name in that era, rather than a solicitor, for example, this from the Edinburgh Evening Courant of 24 May 1861:
Died, at Sandhurst, Victoria, on 3d March, Mr JOSEPH MACK LIDDELL, late accountant, Edinburgh. Friends will please accept this intimation.
There's an 1854 newspaper reference to creditors of a Kenneth McKenzie Thorburn, Esq. meeting "in the chambers of Joseph Mack Liddell, accountant, St. David Street, Edinburgh" on 16 March 1854. Is this the same man as above?
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OP said Joseph jnr went to Australia in 1852 so wouldn't be in Edinburgh in 1854, may have been Joseph snr.
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OP said Joseph jnr went to Australia in 1852 so wouldn't be in Edinburgh in 1854.
I know. Scottish newspapers in April 1878 have notices urging creditors to lodge claims against the Trust Estate "of the deceased JOSEPH MACK LIDDELL, C.A., Edinburgh, and thereafter residing in London". So are there two people so named?
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Hmmm, good point.
"they registered Joseph in Ballarat but was a toddler and born in Scotland"
Using BDM VIC I am not seeing this birth registration.
Maybe OP meant baptised rather than registered?
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Looking at a transcript of the Scotland Select Births and Baptisms 1564-1950 collection on the 'Ancestry' website, he was definitely listed as Joseph Mack Liddle, born 19 June 1825 to Joseph Liddle and Mary Ann Bogue. In a transcript of the 1841 census, there was a Joseph 'Siddle', a 15 year old Accountant Ap (prentice?) in the 'Siddle' household in Scotland Street Edinburgh, headed by a solicitor father Joseph. In a transcript of the 1851 census, there was a Joseph 'Mach' Liddell, a 24 year old accountant, lodging in Perth.
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He was buried as Joseph Liddle in Bendigo BUT when in newspaper it appeared as Joseph Mack son of Joseph Liddle??
Is this the only instance where he appeared as Joseph Mack? I haven't seen the article, but would it not have been implied that he was 'Joseph Mack [Liddle], son of Joseph Liddle'? I still don't know who the other accountant called Joseph Mack Liddell was... a cousin?... a coincidence of names?
Added: There are a couple of references here (1846 and 1857) to an Edinburgh accountant called Joseph Mack Liddell (just Ctrl+F to find):
https://www.oldscottish.com/sheriff-court-extract-decrees-index-jonathan-d-kerr-elizabeth-mackie.html
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NOW Joseph Mack went under Liddle name when traveling out to Australia with wife and son mary Jane & Joseph (they registered Joseph in Ballarat but was a toddler and born in Scotland) in 1852 on Nepaul
This is more likely to be Joseph LIDDLE and Mary Elizabeth APPLETON who were from London. Frederick was 7 months and Joseph 3 years. Father Joseph was a Clerk in 1851.
LIDDLE, JOSEPH
Mother's maiden surname: APPLETON
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in THE ISLINGTON DISTRICT Volume 03 Page 285
LIDDLE, FREDERICK CHARLES
Mother's maiden surname: APPLETON
GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 02 Page 36
They had a number of children in Victoria after 1852.
I can see that a few of Joseph Mack LIDDLE's brothers came to Australia so they may have travelled together around April 1855 when brother John died at sea. If they paid their own way then you may not find any evidence of their arrival.
Debra :)
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Previous post
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837587.0
You are looking for someone born in 1863?
Debra :)
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If the Joseph Mack you are looking for was in fact born in 1863, he can't be the son of Joseph Mack Liddle who you tell us died in 1861
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Good stuff in the last few posts, this just wasn't adding up for me. :)
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He was buried as Joseph Liddle in Bendigo BUT when in newspaper it appeared as Joseph Mack son of Joseph Liddle??
Thanks Michelle
I've seen this a lot in obituaries and marriage notices for Scottish people. Joseph Mack are his given names; his surname is assumed to be the same as his father's.
With women's obituaries, it'll often be something like Isabella Caldwell, wife of Robert Fraser, or Isabella Caldwell, daughter of George Brown, and you have to either know or figure out if Caldwell was her maiden name or middle name.
Marriage notices often listed the first and middle names of the bride and groom without surnames, if their fathers' names were also listed.
This can make it hard to search digital newspapers for obits and marriage notices, because the person's full name isn't always in one string, as in "Isabella Caldwell Fraser," or even "Fraser Isabella." Instead, it might be: "FRASER -- On Monday morning, suddenly, Isabella Caldwell, wife of Robert Fraser..."
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See this obit from 1854 as an example.
Edited to add: In this case, West was her middle name.
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Hi and thanks to everyone who has been assisting.
I did reply BUT I don't know whether they posted or not as I am not familiar on how to use.
SO I am rewriting all the answers I wrote.
Firstly HUGE Thanks
Thanks Josephine this explains the name of Joseph Mack
HI Dundee and Chrissie - SO it was presumed it was 1863 Joseph Mack was born BUT this is only a presumption on the death cert as no one really knew the age of this Joseph - it was guess work from the person reporting. But yes this is the person/family I was looking for but have now realised the name Liddle was dropped here.
Thanks Dundee for pointing out the 1852 ship was not correct Liddle - I had wondered when I seen the 1852 and went don't think this is correct. Sure it was a bit later. One problem sorted. But yes other brother came out so I will look into this and this explains about two he was in Edinburgh in 1846 & 1857 as it was just after this he is documented in Bendigo/Eaglehawk.
So thank goodness cleared up.
Gaffy
The sensis in the correct family
SIddle is th eLiddle family
Now there is Joseph Liddle SSC
then Joseph Mack Liddle/Liddell - accountant a
AND in Australia Joseph Mack the son who dies in Barham NSW - just up the road from Bendigo.
Joseph Mack Liddle also did go to Perth in Scotland for a bit to practice accountancy so that is also correct.
Josey
He did have a son who was on way to Australia BUT died on the boat.
Thanks again for any help this is all appreciated. Cheers MIchelle
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Are you talking about Joseph Mack (no Liddle) death registered Moulamein (parents listed as Joseph and Mary A).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137319255?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Mack%22
Aged 64 in 1927. He was married - do you have his marriage certificate? That would give you a better idea of his age/parentage as the information would be direct from him.
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Any of the children's birth certificates will also show his age and place of birth, death certificates are too unreliable.
Debra :)
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Are you talking about Joseph Mack (no Liddle) death registered Moulamein (parents listed as Joseph and Mary A).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137319255?searchTerm=%22Joseph%20Mack%22
Aged 64 in 1927. He was married - do you have his marriage certificate? That would give you a better idea of his age/parentage as the information would be direct from him.
Yes this is correct person I am 100% the Liddle was dropped and he became Joseph Mack - His father was Joseph Mack Liddle
No I didn't have the marriage as it was completely unavailable but have not checked and it is available so I think I should get this.
Thanks so much for your assistance.
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Any of the children's birth certificates will also show his age and place of birth, death certificates are too unreliable.
Debra :)
I might try this as well. He had a heap of children.
Thanks Michelle
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Just read this quickly and not sure of this has been found yet?
JOSEPH Liddel
Christening 24 October 1789
Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotlan
Parents John LIDDEL, Beatrix MACK