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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: clontarf on Tuesday 09 July 24 11:27 BST (UK)
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In his report to Lord Grenville on the arrival of the Third Fleet, dated 5 Nov 1791, Governor Phillip says 6 free women and 10 children were landed [Historical Records of Australia - Vol 1, 1914, p.274].
Does anyone have documentary evidence for the names of these free passengers on the Third Fleet ships?
I presume the 6 women were the mothers of the 10 children, but 4 females and 1 child died on the passage. Governor Phillip does not say if the female deaths were convicts or free.
One of the women was Martha Love, wife of Pte John Love on the "Matilda" [1806, 1814, 1882 musters; her burial register]. There is no evidence she had a child with her.
Who were the other 5 families (assuming none of the 10 surviving children had lost their mother on the voyage)?
Amendment: Just read another post showing convict women did sometimes have their children with them. So the 10 children may not all have been children of the free women. Nevertheless, knowing their names will still be useful.
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do you know how old Martha was when she died ????
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The burial register 30 Nov 1822 says she was 74, but we dont know who supplied that information, or their competence to know her correct age. We do know the burial is probably her because it says "Martha Love (Free) ship Matilda ...."
The age is almost certainly an exaggeration, or a guess. Her four known children were born 1792, 1793, 1795 and 1799 in or around Sydney. If she had really been 74 when she died then these children would have been born when she was 44, 45, 47 and 51 respectively. I do not think that is very credible.
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regarding John Love and his wife Martha nee Merriman, there is a lot of information on Find a Grave
which includes
"Martha and their daughter, Elizbeth Amelia, emigrated to the colony in 1891 on the ship "Matilda". They arrived in Port Jackson, Sydney on 1 Aug 1791"
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/214218330/martha-love
cass
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Thank you Cass T. I am afraid the Find A Grave site is wrong and not based on any documentary evidence. There is nothing in Australian records to suggest the stated marriage in 1787 in Berkshire is the Australian couple and several reasons that contradict the possibility. I have a lot of research pertaining to this marriage, but discussion should be a separate topic.
There is no document anywhere with Martha Love's maiden name (although naming of some of her grandchildren might give some clues).
Her daughter Elizabeth did not have a middle name and was born in the colony, probably on 28 Jan 1792. I am happy to present the evidence for these statements, but because she was not a passenger on the Third Fleet it should also be done in a separate topic.
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Quote from Clontarf...
'The age is almost certainly an exaggeration, or a guess. Her four known children were born 1792, 1793, 1795 and 1799 in or around Sydney. If she had really been 74 when she died then these children would have been born when she was 44, 45, 47 and 51 respectively. I do not think that is very credible.'
Not impossible though. There are many births from that age bracket. Also the informant knew which ship and that she was free. Why not her age ? That is if she knew it.
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The original register (not a transcription) https://www.ancestry.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/231716:6117
of her death entry Liverpool St Luke's church gives her age as 74, as you state.
So if she had chn in 1792-1799,
you think her age at childbirth is not credible but she could well have had chn at this age as women do nowadays. Alternatively whoever gave the information thought she was 74, but maybe she was?
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No, it is not biologically impossible for a woman to have a child at 51, but it is relatively rare (among the totality of births). I still think it unlikely Martha was 74 at death, but it is a moot point not really relevant to this topic. I accept that she was one of the 6 free women travelling on the Third Fleet ships.
There is no evidence known to me as to Martha's literacy, so I can't really form a judgement on the question of whether she actually knew her age. As a death record the burial information is at best 2nd hand. The informant could be one of her children or her husband, but he is an unreliable witness if he is the source of the age transcribed for his burial (I have yet to see the actual register). I have done some research on the probability of that age being accurate, but that again is another question not really relevant to this topic.
This topic is requesting documentary evidence for the names of the free passengers on the Third Fleet - originally I wanted the 10 children's names but now realise the other 5 women's names would also be useful for my purpose. This could be in the form of muster/census lists, serendipitous mentions in a church register such as Martha's burial, or diaries/letters of the passengers, etc.
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Current working list
Women
Confirmed:
Martha Love, wife of Pte John Love, on "Matilda" (multiple musters, burial record)
Candidates:
Mary Ann Cummings, on "Queen" (1811 muster, free woman from Isle of Man, but may be a freed convict)
Ann Hortle, on "Salamander"
Ann Jamieson, on "Queen" (1823 burial)
Martha Johns, on "Salamander" (1811 muster)
Children
Candidates:
William Jamieson jnr, on "Queen"
Ann Stoolorn, on "Britannia" (1828 muster)
If the 30 convicts on HMS Gorgon are included in the numbers reported by Governor Phillip then 2 more women (Hannah Laycock and Anna Josepha King) and 4 Laycock children can be added to these lists.
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Have sent you a PM re passenger lists.
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The convict numbers in Lord Grenville's and Governor Phillip's despatches do not match even if all the deaths reported by Phillip were convicts.
Grenville:
1875 males
175 females
Phillip:
1695 males landed, 194 died giving a total of 1889 males
168 females landed, 4 died giving a total of 172 females
Governor Phillip has 14 too many males and 3 too few females. Did some of the females listed by Grenville not board the ships? HMS Gorgon arrived 22 Sep 1791, before Phillip's report, so it is possible he is including convicts from that ship, but the numbers still do not match the claimed 30 on the Gorgon. I have yet to find a primary source for the Gorgon so cannot confirm if the 30 is correct.
I am currently transcribing a list, downloaded from the National Archives, of convict names scheduled to be transported on the civilian ships. When finished, that list may help to eliminate some possibilities.
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I have a lot of information and documents for the Third Fleet that have been collected over the past 45 years.
My husband has direct bloodline male and female who came free as part of the NSW Corps Regiment on the Third Fleet.
What is your search for the children onboard for?
Are you looking for or trying to prove a connection to your family?
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I am doing this research on behalf of a descendant of John and Martha Love. There is a lot of unsupported assertion about this family on the internet, so I am trying to return the Love story to an evidentiary basis. The descendant does not want to misappropriate someone else's story.
A part of the process is to show if there were any children of John and Martha Love on the "Matilda", or any of the other Third Fleet ships. If there were only 6 free women and 10 children on the entire fleet, and they can be identified, then there is a chance to show if it is feasible John and Martha had any children with them.
This topic is a very specific elimination exercise, so I don't want to be sidetracked by other aspects of the Love story. I am happy to discuss these other issues if anyone is particularly interested, but not in this topic.
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I admire your approach, Clontarf. Will you document progress here ?, I'd love to follow it.
Good Luck. Jim
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Progress Report
The following 18th century sources mention either names or breakup of numbers of people arriving on the Third Fleet ships:
1. Convict indentures;
2. TNA list HO 11/1, pp 71-151 - Persons transported to New South Wales in Atlantic, William and Ann, Britannia, Matilda, Salamander, Albermarle, Mary Ann, Barrington, and Active in Jan 1791;
3. TNA list HO 11/1, pp 153-154 - Persons transported to New South Wales in the Gorgon in Feb 1791;
4. Despatch from Lord Grenville to Governor Phillip, 19 Feb 1791 in Historical Records of Australia, 1914, Vol 1, p 225;
5. The Ladies Magazine - article dated 18 Feb 1791, Vol 22, p 163;
6. Despatch from Governor Philip to Lord Grenville, 5 Nov 1791 in Historical Records of Australia, 1914, Vol 1, p 274;
7. John Hunter, "An historical journal of the transactions at Port Jackson …", 1793;
8. Watkin Tench, "A Complete Account of the Settlement at Port Jackson ...", 1793;
9. Mary Ann Parker, "A Voyage Round the World in the Gorgon Man of War …", 1795;
10. David Collins, "An Account of the English Colony in New South Wales …", 1798.
The attached table shows the numbers I have so far extracted from these documents. N.B. This is a work in progress, not a final list.
Preliminary observations:
Governor Phillip's report almost certainly does include the convicts on HMS Gorgon. Collins and Hunter differ by one in their numbers for "William and Ann", "Matilda", and "Salamander". Depending on which, if either, are correct in each case, their arrival numbers are a near precise match for Phillip's numbers.
It appears 6 of the female convicts destined for the "Mary Ann" were diverted to the "Albermarle" after Lord Grenville's table was produced.
There is a considerable increase in the numbers of free women and children arriving reported by Collins et al over the numbers reported by Phillip - reason(s) yet to be determined.
In the absence of explicit documentation for the free women and children, Plan B is to look at the female convicts and compare the "sentenced" list from HO 11/1 with muster and census lists from the colony to eliminate as many candidates as possible. I am in the process of transcribing the HO list.
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Hi Clontarf. I can also give you another name for a Free Woman on the Third Fleet Ships. Elizabeth Collins arrived on the Admiral Barrington following her husband Edward Collins convict on the Albemarle also arriving in 1791. Elizabeth gave birth to her daughter Ann Collins born 16 October 1791 on board the Admiral Barrington, baptized: 27 November 1791. Elizabeth died in Childbirth 1795. This is just another Free woman and child for you to elminate. Cheers
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Thank you mweston. Every confirmed example helps.
This highlights a potential muddying of the waters in the way families of convicts are counted - are they convicts or free? I suspect some are counted one way and some the other.