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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Brian E 1 on Monday 08 July 24 17:09 BST (UK)
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I hope you won't mind, but for privacy, names omitted.
I have recently found a family member died due to suicide.
Unfortunately no Death Certification record can be found, by any permutations, including that of the name spelt correctly and or incorrectly, from our usual / expected sources, for the death date.
I have found newspaper reports about the death and the subsequent coroners inquest.
It is, as if the registration has not been complied with, in the usual / expected manner.
I wondered if anybody else may have experienced this similarly and would enquire if they might share if / how they found data or was it "lost".
I think I am correct in expecting, that a death, however caused, would be recorded in the usual record system, or, are suicides treated differently.
As you might appreciate, this is a first for me and any information shared, would/ will be gratefully appreciated.
My thanks in advance,
Brian E
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Have you looked at the following year, sometimes the death certificate takes a while to be issued because of the coroners report
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I think I am correct in expecting, that a death, however caused, would be recorded in the usual record system, or, are suicides treated differently
A member of my family committed suicide in the 1980's.
The death certificate was issued a couple of days after the inquest, which took place about six weeks after the event, and the death is recorded in the usual way in the GRO index.
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You don't say when the death occurred? In modern times the Coroner will issue a temporary death cert after any post mortem but that does not appear in any online records.
Also - if it was a death after 2021 you won’t find anything online as GRO online only covers deaths to 2021
Also - deaths from 2008 onwards are incomplete on the subscription sites but are available from GRO online
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I have death certificates for five members of my family, these occurred in different branches over a period of fifty plus years from the 1880s. All were registered in the normal way after inquests.
Suicide being a criminal offence in those days, the cause of death often included the term “while the balance of mind was disturbed”
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One of my ancestors apparently attempted suicide in hospital and died subsequently from the prior and subsequent illness/injury. Her death cert recorded it as an accident! Agreed with others that no matter the cause, the death should be recorded normally as with any other death, just potentially delayed in the registration as a result of inquest.
On a side note, I once managed to read through pages and pages of inquests. A lot of people died from suicide, but it was amazing how few of them were found by inquest to have committed suicide. The odd rare one, perhaps where they couldn't find a good enough spin on it, was condemned to unconsecrated ground but the vast majority had a sudden, temporary but alas permanent fit of insanity and thus could not be eternally blamed for their actions.
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I think I am correct in expecting, that a death, however caused, would be recorded in the usual record system, or, are suicides treated differently.
It would be recorded in the death registers in the normal way, and appear in the usual indexes, however it can't be registered until the inquest is concluded which these days can be months ( occasionally years) after the event, so you need to search beyond the date you are expecting.
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an intriguing question - as it is possible - were the Police involved as it may have been a suspicious death ?
So a question for members - please advise me
I was always led to believe that a Post Mortem was to find out why someone died - but an Autopsy is REQUESTED by the Police in case it may be a crime ??
can someone who knows explain if I am right - if not - what is the difference between a Post Mortem and an Autopsy ???
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As a police officer for 30 years, I went to a few post mortems, and I remember a very renowned Home Office pathologist I knew back in the 80s who used to get quite annoyed if anyone used the term "autopsy" which he regarded as an unacceptable Americanism..
He would shout loudly "I only do post-mortem examinations, we're in London, not New York" at anyone who dared mention the term, and invite them to leave (in quite strong language).
These days probably things are a little more relaxed and the terms may have become interchangeable ....it is the same thing (although a PM on a suspected murder victim is far more detailed than a standard exam and can take many hours)
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Thanks Anthony..i know better now :D
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Follow-Up;
I passed coroner details to GRO, as an enquiry, to see if maybe an additional listing may exist for deaths such as suicide.
However, after a while I got a scripted response : viz "what you see, is all we have got", in so much if I can't find it, it looks that it may well have been unrecorded.
So onward and upward and thanks to you all for your responses.
Brian E
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You should be asking the registration office in the district in which the death occurred - once the inquest has been concluded then that is where the information is sent by the coroner for the registration to happen. It's possible the coroners officer hasn't forwarded the info, or the registrars haven't acted on it.
No point talking to GRO.
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Actually just sent an email.
Lets see what occurs
Thanks
Brian E
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You haven't told us where else you've looked apart from newspapers, but if it's in a year covered by FreeBMD and is there, I understand that you can give the register details from FreeBMD to the GRO and they will look again. If it's a quite recent year, you may have to wait for FreeBMD to catch up. It has a page giving its % coverage for various years.
The subscription sites have lists beyond where FreeBMD ends, but many of their entries come from sources other than the GRO registers, e.g. newspapers and burial records, and won't help with the GRO.
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Chris,
Thanks for your reply.
My research has utilised Free BMD, Ancestry, FindMyPast, Newspapers of the time and Family Search.
All variants of spellings and corruptions of spellings of the name, misspellings and a coverage over an extended date timeframe were also checked.
Nothing has / had become evident, hence I have just sought out a response from the local register office, BUT unexpectedly it has come back as an undeliverable.
So I will try again.
What I was originally enquiring is / had anyone experienced a similar path : the inability to find a
death registration possibly due due to the cause of death.
I will persevere
Regards Brian E
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Hello again,
Eventually, I managed to contact the registrars, in the district of the death, as detailed in the newspaper reports.
Whilst they were unable to confirm any factual details as confirmation, they suggested a local fhs site to be re-directed to, for local assistance.
This done, I await a response
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I can't imagine what they think the FHS will be able to do, that's like asking B&Q for an interior door and being directed to the local garden fence company.
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Hello,
well yes I do understand, but its plucking at straws and every chance has to be given.
What has amazed me thus far is the newspapers have well detailed the name, occupation, age and location with almost precise pinpoint accuracy.
The following inquest has the details, but after which nothing in "officialdom" appears to be recorded and that does amaze me.
I had wondered if a suicide death was recorded differently to a "usual" passing.
Nothing yet says differently.
I will allow the fhs to respond and see if they might have other info.
But in the meantime nothing in the usual channels is showing a possible avenue to explore.
Thank you all for your responses
Regards Brian E
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Can I just ask what decade the death occurred?
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Mention of the coroner and an inquest in the informant column along with the previously mentioned 'whilst of unsound mind' type references under cause of death are the only things that could look a little unusual. I have a couple in my tree along with two sudden deaths for chaps who dropped dead in the street, inquest and coroner references on all of them but nothing else to raise any eyebrows.
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Surely if you have name , place and date of death ( from the newspaper cutting,can't you simply send off for a cert from GRO?
Cost £9 when I last ordered certs. Some years back.
If not in UK then it will the GRO of whatever place and cost much more.
It is a death, by whatever means, and would be registered.
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Hello,
in reply to your mention of contacting the GRO they were contacted and though not able to find a death corresponding to the details given they offered advice :
a. Try permutations of names, spellings, and mis-matching - which I did
b. They also suggested seeking out assistance from the local FHS to the place of death,
in this case it was Huddersfield, and after some research they too were unable to find any details.
Though they did suggest I might contact the encumbent of the parish church to see if any other
records might be extant. That is in hand.
So I think it might be a useful exercise to see if, with the following details, a fellow researcher might
already have found my quest.
The details are
Deceased : Richard MORTIMER age 61 years, shoemaker of Brigham Fold, Meltham, Yorks.
Died between 11.00pm 20th July 1895 and am 21st July 1895
Inquest held 22nd July 1895 at the Railway Hotel, Meltham, Yorks.
Any information will be greatfully received and much appreciated.
Brian E
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The details are
Deceased : Richard MORTIMER age 61 years, shoemaker of Brigham Fold, Meltham, Yorks.
Died between 11.00pm 20th July 1895 and am 21st July 1895
Inquest held 22nd July 1895 at the Railway Hotel, Meltham, Yorks.
What about this record?
Deaths Apr./Jun 1896 Mortimer Richard 60 Leeds 9b 346
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Update.
I am able to advise with the help of some researchers, the clergy and local government officers, the following was found :
Richard was afforded a burial, in an adjacent burial ground in his parish.
It is recorded (as yet not determined in which document) in church records.
The local registry office have again checked their records around the date of death / burial, for their districts and sub-districts and confirm there is no record.
Which in turn means no record was ever sent to the GRO.
Richard "slipped the net " it would seem.
The district local FHS have been extremely helpful in my search. So I thank them and recommend if you are stumped always ask, they might just be able to assist or point you in the right direction.
I have enough information now, to know where and when my elusive character was laid to rest to seek out others.
Thank you all for comments / suggestions / interest in my quest.
Brian E
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I came across one way back in my research where the death was registered under 'unknown' but later identified. Sometimes searching the surname Unknown in the GRO can find it but remember if unknown when the death was registered, the age was probably a huge estimate!
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Understood,
I have found a consistency with my research subject of his age. It has not varied and as best as I can tell the local registry office found no death at time and place of anyone of the same age.
As I said I think this one has slipped the net, but you do wonder how many others might similarly have gone astray.
Regards Brian E
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Have you checked out the one suggested by aghadowey? There is often a delay in registering a death when an inquest is involved. I had one with a similar length of time, though that was for a murder in more recent times and would have involved police investigations and maybe a wait for a trial. But your local registry office should know about such situations.