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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Suzy100 on Sunday 07 July 24 22:26 BST (UK)

Title: Finding a birth
Post by: Suzy100 on Sunday 07 July 24 22:26 BST (UK)
I am trying to find the son of Hannah Maud Cotton, she was born 1865 Brighton.  Father Samuel Augustine Cotton, a Tailor.  Mother Elizabeth.
I have Hannah Maud in 1881 census living at home in Brighton with parents.
On the 1 November 1890 she gave birth to a son Charles James (surname unknown)
She married James John Boxall born 1861 on the 15 September 1900 • The Registry Office, Brighton.
I got Charles's birth date from the 1939 census.

I cannot find Hannah, James Boxall or Charles James in the 1891 census.
I have checked the GRO under Cotton and Boxall but nothing.  I have ruled out the Charles J born 1891 as his middle name is Jonathan. 
Charles is known by the surname Boxall in every other census, also on his marriage to Rose Catherine Granger in 1912 he lists his father as James John Boxall. 

James John Boxall died in 1913 and there is a newspaper article about him being found in the street, strangely it states 'his brother Charles James Boxall said that he was in good health...'  I am assuming this could have been a reporting error.
Not sure where to go from here.
Many thanks
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Ayashi on Sunday 07 July 24 23:33 BST (UK)
If she pretended to be married to the father of Charles James, his surname could be anything.

Out of interest, have you located the birth of the child that had died by 1911? I can't seem to find one with mmn COTTON.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: snowqueen on Sunday 07 July 24 23:37 BST (UK)
In 1921 there's a Charles James Boxall with wife Rose Catherine and daughter Minnie Muriel Rose living in Brighton.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Suzy100 on Monday 08 July 24 06:46 BST (UK)

Out of interest, have you located the birth of the child that had died by 1911? I can't seem to find one with mmn COTTON.
[/quote]

I had not noticed that they had another child to be honest.  But I had looked on GRO going right back and nothing in any of the years for a Boxall with mother Cotton.  Or Cotton as surname.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Suzy100 on Monday 08 July 24 06:47 BST (UK)
In 1921 there's a Charles James Boxall with wife Rose Catherine and daughter Minnie Muriel Rose living in Brighton.


Yes I have the 1921 census and 1939 register with them on it, hence I found Charles DOB although I guess that may not be correct.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: RW1 on Monday 08 July 24 07:04 BST (UK)
They are at 26 William Street, Brighton, on the 1891 Census.

Hannah is "Maude Borcall". She's with James and Charles.

Amended - sorry - that's the 1901.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 08 July 24 07:13 BST (UK)

"On the 1 November 1890 she gave birth to a son Charles James (surname unknown)"

Where was he born?.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Suzy100 on Monday 08 July 24 07:29 BST (UK)
They are at 26 William Street, Brighton, on the 1891 Census.

Hannah is "Maude Borcall". She's with James and Charles.

Amended - sorry - that's the 1901.

Yes got that one. Thanks
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Suzy100 on Monday 08 July 24 07:30 BST (UK)

"On the 1 November 1890 she gave birth to a son Charles James (surname unknown)"

Where was he born?.

He has always put Brighton as his DOB, but I guess it could have been anywhere, I have searched other places on other web sites, put them as a family but nothing comes up.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Ayashi on Monday 08 July 24 09:39 BST (UK)

Quote
Out of interest, have you located the birth of the child that had died by 1911? I can't seem to find one with mmn COTTON.

I had not noticed that they had another child to be honest.  But I had looked on GRO going right back and nothing in any of the years for a Boxall with mother Cotton.  Or Cotton as surname.

Just wondered, since we've got two missing births, apparently neither with maiden name Cotton. I doubt Charles will be under Boxall, since I don't think James John was his biological father (also notice on the 1911 where they incorrectly noted children on both James and Hannah, he says he had one child born and died, she says two children born- she's counted Charles where he hasn't, even though they've amended their years married to include his birth). It's possible the dead child was stillborn (which would be another error on the census, since they weren't supposed to count children not born alive), in which case there won't be a birth registration. If there is one though, it may well be under a different maiden name for some reason, since we can't find one under Cotton. I'm somewhat minded of my 2xgt grandparents, who registered their daughters correctly but I always joke my 2gt grandfather must have wet the baby's head a little too enthusiastically when his son was born because he put his wife's middle name as her maiden name, causing confusion in his descendants  ::)

The same couple... My 2xgt grandmother had an illegitimate child prior to the marriage and pretended to be married to the father on the child's birth certificate, which was registered at her mother's home address in Cornwall. 2xgt grandfather recorded on the census that the child was born in Folkestone, Kent. Where was the bio-father eventually found? Folkestone, Kent  ::) I don't know if 2xgt grandfather got confused between where the child was born and where she was conceived, or if my 2xgt grandmother gave birth in Kent and did a naughty registering the child when she got home.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: garden genie on Monday 08 July 24 09:50 BST (UK)

Out of interest, have you located the birth of the child that had died by 1911? I can't seem to find one with mmn COTTON.

I had not noticed that they had another child to be honest.  But I had looked on GRO going right back and nothing in any of the years for a Boxall with mother Cotton.  Or Cotton as surname.
[/quote]

For what it's worth there is an Albert Edward Boxall born 3rd quarter 1902 in Brighton (ref 2b 213) on FreeBMD who does not appear in the newer GRO indexes. They do occasionally have worse transcription errors than the original indexes, but since they insist on a surname to search it is hard to know how this child has been indexed in order to check his mother's maiden name!

Edit- Forget that suggestion. There is no matching death for him before the 1911 census.
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 08 July 24 10:30 BST (UK)
Ancestry England Census 1891    56 Islingword St Brighton   (my correction here)
COTTON    Samuel    5*y    tailor                    b. Wolverhampton Staff.
COTTON    Elizabeth  50y    tailoress               b. St James Middlesex
COTTON    Herbert    19y    wireworker                     "           "
COTTON    Julian       15y    baker                             "           "

Ancestry St Luke Brighton   baptism 3 Mar 1890
BOXALL  Minnie Elizabeth Jane     ps. James, shoe smith,  Maude
residence  56 Islingword St


added  GRO births
BOXALL, Minnie Elizabeth Jane    mms     COTTON 
1888  MarQ  Brighton  Vol 02B  Page 250



Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 08 July 24 11:03 BST (UK)


FreeBDM death   SepQ 1897
BOXALL  Minnie Elizabeth J      9    Brighton    Vol 2b   page 159
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Suzy100 on Monday 08 July 24 11:15 BST (UK)
Ancestry England Census 1891    56 Ingleword St Brighton
COTTON    Samuel    5*y    tailor                    b. Wolverhampton Staff.
COTTON    Elizabeth  50y    tailoress               b. St James Middlesex
COTTON    Herbert    19y    wireworker                     "           "
COTTON    Julian       15y    baker                             "           "

Ancestry St Luke Brighton   baptism 3 Mar 1890
BOXALL  Minnie Elizabeth Jane     ps. James, shoe smith,  Maude
residence  56 Islingword St


added  GRO births
BOXALL, Minnie Elizabeth Jane    mms     COTTON 
1888  MarQ  Brighton  Vol 02B  Page 250


Brilliant thank you. One step forward
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 08 July 24 11:21 BST (UK)
I am trying to find the son of Hannah Maud Cotton, she was born 1865 Brighton.  Father Samuel Augustine Cotton, a Tailor.  Mother Elizabeth.
I have Hannah Maud in 1881 census living at home in Brighton with parents.


She is listed as Maud on that 1881 census
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Suzy100 on Monday 08 July 24 11:25 BST (UK)
I am trying to find the son of Hannah Maud Cotton, she was born 1865 Brighton.  Father Samuel Augustine Cotton, a Tailor.  Mother Elizabeth.
I have Hannah Maud in 1881 census living at home in Brighton with parents.


She is listed as Maud on that 1881 census

Yes she was also known as Ann Maud, I have looked under all
Title: Re: Finding a birth
Post by: Ayashi on Monday 08 July 24 21:15 BST (UK)

FreeBDM death   SepQ 1897
BOXALL  Minnie Elizabeth J      9    Brighton    Vol 2b   page 159

Well spotted, on both child and census. So the parents were together that early, but didn't actually marry for another decade.  ::)

So we now know that wherever they are, (John) James, (Hannah) Maud, Minnie and presumably Charles should, in theory, be together in 1891. I was about to say "perhaps they are at the same address as the baptism!" and then realised that no, they aren't  ::) I wonder if they moved out around the time of the census and both sides thought the other side was recording their location that night, thus omitting them from the census entirely... (Just pulling that out of thin air...)