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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: gerrygannon on Sunday 23 June 24 12:30 BST (UK)
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Did anyone ever resolve the questions around Shankers Ryan and his connection to Beccy Cooper???
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Nope. Only in a couple of places did I even find a Cooper and Ryan in the same household; in this 1911 Magdalen Laundry in Henrietta Street
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Inns_Quay/Henrietta_Street/33474/
and another with just two women, one Ryan, one Cooper, living together - can't remember if it was 1911 or 1901 but it was in one of those censuses, and if my memory doesn't fail me they were living basically in the Monto ambit.
My guess at the time was that it might have been a woman marrying a Cooper then a Ryan or vice versa, but having looked a bit closer on the lives of these people it seemed to me that marriage would've been more of an informal arrangement not involving the State, which would make them harder to track.
Some of their relatives did post here at various stages, and they might like to comment about their collateral or direct ancestors, whose lives and choices and culture have little to do with us today.
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Did you find any information on Beccy Cooper in 1901 or 1911 census?
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This is what I ended up with in my folder about him (and her, in case) - I had more but threw the rest out as very doubtful. If you want copies of any of these, just shout.
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Bridget graydon was his wife,she's the next of kin on his military pension.
He was in the kings huzzars and then in the military police at Dublin castle.
Send me what you have and I'll let you know if I can add to it..
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There's a lot of misinformation going around about Ryan and cooper,for years now.
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Beccy Coopers sister was Norah Cooper,she had a connection to John Ryan.
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I wonder is Norah a name-change from Susan Cooper who lived in Tyrone Street in 1901 with Mary Ryan https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Lr__Tyrone_Street/1276089/
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No,Susan was another sister of Beccy and Norah.
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Small point on the North Dock street names of the time: Dublin clutched her pearls and changed some of these names of the rough streets in behind Amiens Street Station.
Montgomery Street morphed into Foley Street.
Gloucester Street became Seán MacDiarmada Street.
Mecklenburgh Street became Tyrone Street, then Railway Street.
Mabbot Street became Corporation Street. Then it became James Joyce Street, neatly tucked in between Railway and Foley Streets. Joyce would probably think it the perfect salute from his native city.
https://osi.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=bc56a1cf08844a2aa2609aa92e89497e
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And Mary Ryan, who's described as her sister in the census, another?
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Beccy Cooper died in Dublin in 1949.
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Becky Cooper ran a brothel on Railway St, according to local Historian Terry Fagan she was the sister of Shanker's Ryan who had been shot in Ryans Pub by the IRA as an Informer. (Becky had heard the gunshots and ran to the pub) as Shankers had been in the company of his brother in law, Railway st where Becky lived in one of these houses...credit Dublin tenement life.
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Yes, he was seen following Dick McKee and Peadar Clancy from Phil Shanahan's pub the night before they were tortured to death in Dublin Castle; he was known to frequent the police - well, he was a former soldier and on the edge of police from what people said.
So naturally the Squad, who had fought by Dick McKee from Jacob's in 1916 and before, and loved both him and Clancy, were going to track him down and wipe him out.
He's a mysterious figure - I wonder if he spent time in India, think I might've read that.
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Beccy Cooper was born Rebecca Cooper at 17 Montgomery Street Dublin on the 15/Feb/1880 to John Cooper(house painter)and Elizabeth Brooks.
Her sister Susan was born at 17 Montgomery Street Dublin on the 14/may/1882 to John Cooper(house painter) and Elizabeth Brooks.
Next sister Norah was born at 29 Mabbot st Dublin on the 11/march/1887 to John Cooper (house painter) and Elizabeth Brooks.
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Next sister Norah was born at 29 Mabbot st Dublin on the 11/march/1887 to John Cooper (house painter) and Elizabeth Brooks.
Born 11 April 1887
Link-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02539/1940049.pdf
Son James Cooper born 13 February 1886.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02604/1961673.pdf
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Bit of a long shot - this James Cooper marrying Bridget Gunning is the son of a John, but that John is a carpenter - of course, people do change their professions…
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By the way, did I read that Beccy Cooper had saved herself a nice little dot, as the French call it - a nest egg - when she retired? How did she and her brothers and sisters do later?
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So, George was born in 1886,which would make him 19 in 1905,the marriage cert said he was full age,which I'm sure was 21 back then🤔
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Beccy Cooper was born Rebecca Cooper at 17 Montgomery Street Dublin on the 15/Feb/1880 to John Cooper(house painter)and Elizabeth Brooks.
Her sister Susan was born at 17 Montgomery Street Dublin on the 14/may/1882 to John Cooper(house painter) and Elizabeth Brooks.
Next sister Norah was born at 29 Mabbot st Dublin on the 11/march/1887 to John Cooper (house painter) and Elizabeth Brooks.
Married William Whittaker in 1900
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0516
1911 Census
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Mabbot_St_/20241/
Died 1949
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1949/04551/4201110.pdf
At least one assault case where Rebecca is the defendant insinuates her refreshment house is more than simply drinks. Judge says she’s a known violent woman.
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So, George was born in 1886,which would make him 19 in 1905,the marriage cert said he was full age,which I'm sure was 21 back then🤔
I've seen marriage certs filled in as full age when I know the people weren't, though.
Gerry, a friend of mine went to get married in the 1980s and found she had no birth cert! Her father had gone out to register her and stopped off in a pub on the way… she had no legal existence! I assume her school had accepted a baptismal cert… Caused all kinds of trouble, swearing affidavits and the like!
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I know,but add it to the carpenter business.
We should keep an open mind🤔
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Ah yeah.
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Becky Cooper in 16.3 LR Tyrone street Dublin in 1901 as head of household.
20 years old
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Not unusual at the time for people (especially working class) to be unaware of the exact year of birth unless it coincided with a historical event, lot of working class people steered well clear of the authorities due to the fact that they were unable to read or write.
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You have Beccy's marriage registration, Gerry? It's there - only a transcription, though:
Party 1
Name William Whiticker
Age Full
Address 2 Faithful Place
Occupation Soldier
Civil Status Single
Father's Forename William
Father's Surname Whiticker
Father's Profession Labourer
Signature William Whiticker
Party 2
Name Rebecca Cooper
Age Full
Address 26 Malboro St.
Civil Status Single
Father's Forename John
Father's Surname Cooper
Signature Rebecca Cooper
Marriage Information
Date of Event 26 April 1900
Marriage Solemnised At Address the Chapel of Pro Cathedral
Solemnised According To the Rites and Ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church
Solemniser Forename Peter
Solemniser Surname Dunne
Witness
Witness 1 Michael Cunningham
Witness 2 Kate Ward
Other Information
Group Registration ID 1633540
Registrar Lauren Keogh
Registration District/Office Dublin North City No. 1
Registration SR District/Reg Area Dublin
Registration County Co. Dublin
Date of Registration 03/05/1900
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If you ask for help at the Great War Forum, I'd be very surprised if those lads wouldn't be able to tell you all about William Whiticker/Whitaker. They're real experts and very kind and helpful. You'll have to sign up and get a username and password. https://www.greatwarforum.org/
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Beccys sister Susan married Patrick kinsella on 30/July/1903.
She was from 28 Mabbot st and he was from 114 LR Gardiner street.
Patrick was a cook.
Married at pro cathedral, Dublin
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John Ryan married Bridget graydon on 21/mar/1914 in the pro cathedral.
Both lived at 16 Railway street.
Father's,James Ryan and John graydon.
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2/12/1907, William Whittaker,of 93 Mabbot st,was remanded in custody in kilmainham goal for assault on Rebecca Cooper.
He was 28 years old.
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4/Dec/1907, William Whittaker gets 6 weeks hard labour in Mountjoy prison,for assault on Rebecca Whittaker.
Release date,14/January/1907
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Beccys sister Susan married Patrick kinsella on 30/July/1903.
She was from 28 Mabbot st and he was from 114 LR Gardiner street.
Patrick was a cook.
Married at pro cathedral, Dublin
Link-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1903/10246/5728925.pdf
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And here's Kate Lennon, one of the witnesses, in 31 Mabbot Street in 1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Mabbot_Street/1276195/
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And here's Katie Lennon marrying soldier Charles Kenny in 1911; she's from 28 Mabbot Street, he's from 30 Tyrone Street.
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13/Nov/1902, Susan Cooper was convicted to two calender months hard labour for keeping porter for sale unlicensed.
Mabbot street address and Rebecca Whittaker,next of kin.
Release date,12/Jan/1903
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Mountjoy female prison 👆
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1911 census for 28.2 Mabbot st Dublin Kathleen with son William Lennon aged 6, along with niece Jane Whitty 13, also 2 boarders, both young women, no occupations?
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Irish times,15/Oct/1939,
Mrs Rebecca Whittaker, Railway street,was sent to jail for two months hard labour,for having maliciously breaking two windows in the dairy of Mr A Robinson,of 10 Railway street.
Her solicitor,j trant MC Carthy,said the defendant had taken too much drink.
He said,she would pay compensation of for damage.
Which amounted to £13 and 9 shillings.
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1911 electoral rolls has Norah Cooper living at 33Mabbot street
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1913 electoral rolls shows Norah Cooper at 9 Railway street,north dock.
Inhabitant or rate payer
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They have the prison records in the National Archives in Jacob's
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Is it free to search🤔
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1914 Mary Jane Kinsella birth registration, father Patrick, labourer, mother Susan née Cooper, 29 Corporation Street, Susan signing with her mark
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1913 Patrick Kinsella birth registration, father Patrick, labourer, mother Susan née Cooper, 29 Corporation Street, Susan signing with her mark.pdf
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1906 unknown Kinsella birth registration, father Patrick, cook, mother Susan née Cooper, 1 Brien's maybe Court, Tyrone Street
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Is it free to search🤔
Yeah, but you have to walk in there, not online, and while the archivists are helpful and knowledgable, some of the staff are a bit lost-seeming.
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Ok,nice👌
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1914 John Benedict Whittaker father William shopkeeper, mother Rebecca née Cooper, 9 Railway Street
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Now here's a one for you: 1912 William Whittaker birth registration father William shopkeeper, mother Rebecca née Cooper, 9 Railway Street, present at birth, Bridget Graydon, 16 Railway Street
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1908 Mary Elizabeth Whittaker birth registration father William, labourer, mother Rebecca née Cooper, 33 Mabbot Street
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1911 census Bridget Graydon, domestic servant aged 23, born in Dublin City 16.4 Tyrone Street, Lower (North Dock, Dublin) http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Tyrone_Street__Lower/16959/
1884 Bridget Graydon birth registration, father John, postman, mother Bridget née Maguire, 109 Lr Dorset Street
In 1901 at the age of 17 she appears to be in a boarding school in Patrick Street, Kilkenny.
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1920 Bridget Ryan death registration aged 1, pertussis, child of ex-soldier, 24 Lr Gardiner Street, mother Bridget Ryan present, signs with mark
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No, that Bridget Ryan isn't ours, I think; different ex-soldier.
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So, between 1914 &1918, Patrick kinsella died.
Was he in the military at that point, because I can't find record of death in Ireland.
Could he have joined up and died overseas in the first world war????
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There used to be a site for all (or most) of the Irish soldiers who died in World War I…
Wait, is this our boy? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/10894956/patrick-kinsella
Private P KINSELLA
Service Number: 16241
Regiment & Unit/Ship: Yorkshire Regiment, 6th Bn.
Date of Death 03 February 1917
UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920:
Name Patrick Kinsella
Military Date 1914-1920
Military Place England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, United Kingdom
Regiment or Corps Yorkshire Regiment
Regimental Number 16241
And: "According to his medal card, his widow was Mrs S Lennon, 11 Railway St. Dublin, who applied for his medals."
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Yup, that's the poor lad. Dead in the cause of capitalism.
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Party 1
Name Joseph Lennon
Age Full
Address 9 Railway St
Occupation Sailor
Civil Status Never Married
Father's Forename William
Father's Surname Lennon
Father's Profession Labourer
Signature Joseph Lennon
Party 2
Name Susan Kinsella
Age Full
Address 11 Railway St
Civil Status Widowed
Father's Forename John
Father's Surname Cooper
Father's Profession Painter
Signature Susan (Her X Mark) Kinsella (GWT)
Marriage Information
Date of Event 21 January 1918
Marriage Solemnised At Address Roman Catholic Church, Of Lr Gloucester St
Solemnised According To the Rites and Ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church
Solemniser Forename George W
Solemniser Surname Turley CC
Witness
Witness 1 William Whittaker
Witness 2 Rebecca Whittaker
Other Information
Group Registration ID 1622277
Registrar PJ Dolan
Registration District/Office Dublin North City No. 1 West
Registration SR District/Reg Area Dublin North
Registration County Co. Dublin
Date of Registration 05/04/1918
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Yes,that would be right,Patrick Kinsella died in February 1917,which made her a widow and she then married Joseph Lennon in January 1918.
Joseph Lennon was a sailor in the Royal Navy and was extensively travelled.
He also died out foreign,but had kids with Susan Kinsella (nee Cooper).
I will give a very interesting fact shortly about this situation.
As soon as I get it together👍
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Tenterhooks deployed!
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So,Joseph Lennon was born on 20/Jan/1885 .
His sister Anne Jane was born on 22/Jan/1891.
Their parents were William and Mary Lennon(nee Sommers).
On the 16/Feb/1910,their father William died.
On the 11/Apr/1915,Anne Jane Lennon married Edward Coldwell and moved to 58 Foley street.One year later,,
On the 28/Apr/1916,Anna Jane was visiting her mother,Mary Lennon at 43D Coronation place,when the British army opened fire and shot both women with a single bullet.
Anne Jane must have been in her mother's arms when the bullet came through the window.
Mary Lennon died of a gunshot wound on the 28/Apr/1916.
Anne Jane died a couple of hours later on the 29/Apr/1916.
The two women are buried as victims of the 1916 Rising in Glasnevin.
Another son Michael arranged his mother's funeral.
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Divided loyalties!
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Does that mean working for the British army when they're shooting your family🤔
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It means falling for a fast-talking soldier after other soldiers have shot your family. I'm sure he was well able to convince vulnerable people that he was a true patriot.
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Do you mean Ryan???
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That I do. These were sensible women. Unless he got in there by way of his wife, which is possible, he talked his way in.
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He was a piece of sh@t
Collins took out the trash
The end
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No question, he was.
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Not sure if we have this.
1911 census has Beccy Cooper aged 29 in 33 Mabbot Street with her husband William Whittaker, refreshment room keeper aged 31, their children Rebecca (6) and Marey E (2), her sister Norah (22) and Norah's daughter Sarah (3).
Only Sarah Cooper possibilities I've found being born at the rightish time are one in Taghmon, Wexford, whose mother is Kate; and Mary Cooper and also Albert Cooper, both born in the South Dublin Union workhouse in 1905 and 1903 respectively, whose mother was Mary Cooper. (These are long shots so I won't attach them.)
However, I did find Rebecca Cooper, daughter of Beccy and William - who is described on her birth registration as a sergeant of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers in 1905, when they were living in 9 Railway Street.
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Trying to fox the yoke here by posting the 1911 census entry and then Rebecca Jr's birth registration separately.
Hm, now this is weird - the census fle is about 500kb but it chokes on it. Here's the link: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Mabbot_St_/20241/
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And young Rebecca, if it'll let me.
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However, I did find Rebecca Cooper, daughter of Beccy and William - who is described on her birth registration as a sergeant of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers in 1905, when they were living in 9 Railway Street.
Good idea to attach the birth record.
Looks like Rebecca Margaret was born 7 January 1905 at 3 Blessington? Street.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01379/1567384.pdf
Record registered 21 April 1915.
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Yes. I wonder what was there. It's over a kilometre from Railway Street.