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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: lolz on Saturday 15 June 24 09:30 BST (UK)
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Hello first post here.
Brick wall ancestor that I have been researching a long time, Elizabeth Whitmore nee Phair. I have been unable to find any info on her parents, apart from her parents names which are on her death certificate (On her wiki tree profile (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Phair-90).Her Parents are listed as John Phair-Farmer and Elizabeth Kettles, on her death certificate. I believe she was born in Ireland around 1858 (due to a passenger list record on fs) and died in Otahuhu NZ in 1894.
I also believe and am confident that Elizabeth has a sister named Jane Phair https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Phair-94, due to DNA evidence. I have done and searched ancestry, looked on both ireland family history websites and family search but cannot find anything about her or her sisters parents.
This has been a brick wall for some time. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks L
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Welcome to Rootschat.
I am wondering if you have looked at these Irish resources:
irish genealogy https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Griffiths Valuation
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
Are you more or less certain she came from Co Fermanagh?
On some of the records the families are Church of Ireland. Does this tally with your research? CoE is similar to the Anglican Church in NZ. I note that some of the NZ ones are Methodists/Wesleyans.
Even though these are 1901/11 records I search for the oldest ones recorded. Then I try to track back & forward to find marriage and death records for these ones.
Often family first names are used over in records and these can provide leads.
On all of these records there are Phairs/Fairs/Fares etc and Kettle and Kettles. I would look at Kittle/s as well.
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I have been unable to find any info on her parents, apart from her parents names which are on her death certificate
Why are you relying on information on her death certificate? What does her marriage certificate say about her place of birth, age and parents?
Debra :)
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There was a John Phair farming in Tiraroe, Kinawley parish, Fermanagh in 1861. He seems to have had a wife named Eliza who died in 1878, aged 60.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1878/020501/7194164.pdf
He died in 1861:
Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Phair late of Tiraroe (Terraroo) in the County of Fermanagh, Farmer, deceased who died 27 July 1861 at same place, were granted at Armagh to Eliza Phair of Tiraroe (Derrylin) aforesaid the Widow of said deceased.
Family looks to have been Church of Ireland. They probably attended church in Derrylin. (There are 3 churchess in the parish).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Drummully/Tiraroe/1357846/
This looks be a son to John & Eliza marrying in 1872 in Lisnaskea Register Office:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1872/11308/8149388.pdf
He died in August 1878:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1878/020501/7194164.pdf
The widow and 2 children are on the farm in the 1901 census.
Birth registration only started in 1864 in Ireland. Prior to that we rely on baptism records, where they exist. The Kinawley Church of Ireland records are probably not on-line anywhere but there is a microfilm copy in PRONI in Belfast. The records start in the 1760s. They may tell you whether this is the right family.
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Thankyou very much for your replies, super helpful. I will have to look into the John Phair from Tiraroe, haven't come accross him before.
I have checked out all the irish rescources before and had no luck. Definately deserve a second look as there may be something I missed.
I rely on her death certificate as it's the only source I can find that names her parents, and one of the only sources I can find on her, that provides valuable info. I am pretty sure she is from Fermanagh due to a passenger list on family search. It ties in with the death certificate as she was 24 years old when she came to nz in 1880, 27 when she married in 1883 and when she died in 1894, She had been in NZ for 14 years. Which makes her DOB 1856 instead on 58. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FS13-YZ8.
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Nearly all the Phairs in Fermanagh were Church of Ireland (judging by the 1901 census). Be aware that many Church of Ireland records are not on-line. If she is from Kinawley you might need to pay a researcher to go to PRONI to look the records up. You should also know that about 40% of the Church of Ireland’s records were lost in the 1922 fire in Dublin, so another possibility is that there is no longer a record to find. But fortunately Kinawley’s records have survived and can be searched. Just not on-line.
Re the age, errors on death certificates are common as often the informant didn’t have all the relevant information. A marriage certificate is more likely to be accurate but even then people had their reasons for not giving totally accurate information. A common reason for age discrepancies was they didn’t actually know how old they were. They normally didn’t celebrate birthdays in Ireland in the 1800s. If officialdom asked for an age or date of birth it was common just to guess or make a date up.
Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister living in the US. This extract from his book “The Chimney Corner revisited” perhaps explains why people often had to guess their ages:
“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”
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Further to Elwyn's reply #3, the 'Fermanagh Gold' website search engine brings back an entry for a marriage in Lisnaskea Church of Ireland on 23 October 1840 (PRONI ref: PRONI MIC 1/73/1), between John Fair of Tarraroo (Tiraroe), Parish of Kinawley and Elizabeth Kettle, Parish of Aghalurcher. They were married by Alexander Hurst and the witnesses were Robert Garritt and Matthew Swindle.
You can see this entry yourself at the following link, just type +Fair +Kettle +Tiraroe into the query box:
https://search.fermanagh-gold.com/api/v1/search
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The Tithe Applotment Books include about ten Kettles in Fermanagh, two of these in the parish of Aghalurcher (year reference is 1833):
- William Kettle in the townland of Carrickmacosker;
- Robert Kettle in the neighbouring townland of Kilronan.
https://www.townlands.ie/fermanagh/magherastephana/aghalurcher/carrickmacosker/carrickmacosker/
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Further to Elwyn's reply #3, the 'Fermanagh Gold' website search engine brings back an entry for a marriage in Lisnaskea Church of Ireland on 23 October 1840 (PRONI ref: PRONI MIC 1/73/1), between John Fair of Tarraroo (Tiraroe), Parish of Kinawley and Elizabeth Kettle, Parish of Aghalurcher. They were married by Alexander Hurst and the witnesses were Robert Garritt and Matthew Swindle.
You can see this entry yourself at the following link, just type +Fair +Kettle +Tiraroe into the query box:
https://search.fermanagh-gold.com/api/v1/search
Gaffy,
Great find. I think we have the right family!
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Gaffy,
Great find. I think we have the right family!
Your find really, I just played with the spelling of the surname, but yes, it looks like them alright.
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I rely on her death certificate as it's the only source I can find that names her parents, and one of the only sources I can find on her, that provides valuable info.
She would have given the information herself when she married which is usually much more reliable.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/marriage
Debra :)
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Lolz,
We think we have probably found your family in Fermanagh. What else do you what to know?
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I cannot thank you enough, you have done the impossible. I have alot of research ahead of me, but I truly think you may have found the family. I always thought that the records may have been destroyed, due to the lack of info on the family, but this new info gives me hope. Wishing you all the best.
Thanks Lauren
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Lauren,
Glad to have helped. Obviously your focus has been to identify early relatives origins. Now you know where they probably came from you might be interested in any family who remained. The Phair family seem to have remained in the area for many years. There’s this probate abstract (taken from PRONI’s records):
Phair John of Tiraroe Derrylinn P.O. county Fermanagh farmer died 12 January 1945 Probate Londonderry 8 July to Edward Rutledge farmer and Anne Jane Phair widow of testator. Effects £1476 10s. 2d.
The will itself is not on-line but is in PRONI in Belfast. Perhaps there are Phairs in Tiraroe today? Something to consider.
It’s easy enough to identify where the Phair farm was/is. And obviously the local Tourist Board would be delighted if you decided to come and visit!
You can see where the Phair family farmed in Tiraroe using the Griffiths Valuation website.
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
It was a 30 acre farm. Based on what I can see from a satellite image, today it’s on the modern Ned Rd. It’s still a working farm and the same size it was in the 1800s. Some might say it’s in the middle of nowhere but it is in a lovely area and you would surely enjoy visiting.
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Once again thank you for all your help. I would love to come visit Ireland, although I am in Australia aka the furthest away you could get from it. Looks like a beautiful place. Luscious green grass and it looks very peaceful.
All the best Lauren