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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Rw2 on Monday 10 June 24 01:01 BST (UK)
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My great great grandfather was an Edwin Rothwell born in Rochdale in 1845 per the 1851 and '61 census, although I haven't found a birth or bapt. record for him. At age 6 in 1851 he was living with and was being raised by his uncle and aunt William and Ann Clegg in Rochdale (or that area), who don't seem to have had other children, per the census, and in 1861 he was living at age 16 with his widowed aunt Ann Clegg while he was working as a plumber.
Ann was originally from Fewston, a town north of Leeds, and I think William Clegg was from Rochdale (or at least he was per the 1851 census I think), so it might be more likely that William was Edwin's mother's brother, and if so his mother was a Clegg too (William certainly wasn't his father's brother), than that Ann was his father's sister (and therefore a Rothwell) or his mother's mother, but either case is certainly possible too.
I assume Edwin's mother died before he was 6 but I don't know of course (there was a miserable mortality rate for the locals in Rochdale and in Lancashire generally in the 1840s), and I don't know who his father was or what became of him.
Does anyone have any info. that might shine some light re Edwin Rothwell born in @ 1845 in Rochdale and these Cleggs???
Thank you in any event.
Here's a link to a thread re Rothwells and, interestingly, Cleggs.: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=319463.msg2003306#msg2003306
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I am presuming you don’t have the marriage of Ann & William?
Interesting that in 1851 Edwin is Edwin R. Rothwell
Then in 1861 he is Edwin Clegg Rothwell. (Not that it helps)
What did Edwin say about his father on his marriage?
PS it is confusing having your identical post on that old thread. Research gets doubled up. I would delete that and just post a link to it on your first post here.
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Thank you, I'll delete the post to the old thread (once I learn how to link it to this post.)
I wrote that post from memory (although I've checked the 1861 census record and changed it to mention that Edwin's aunt Ann originally hails from Fewston, just north of Leeds. I checked the FreeCen site, and while an entry comes up for 1861, none does for 1851. But I have a record from that census as well, for a 6 year old Edwin, that I printed out a few years ago.)
I've looked through church records available online for the older churches in Rochdale and haven't found the bapt. record for an Edwin Rothwell that fits the census records, but which indicate he was born in Rochdale.
Do you think it might be more likely that William is his maternal uncle, ie. that his mother was a Clegg too, in light of the middle name indicated in 1861, or would he take on that name having been adopted by a William Clegg?
Thanks again for your kind response!!
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Thank you, I'll delete the post to the old thread (once I learn how to link it to this post.)
just copy the url at the top of the old thread, and paste it into your opening post (click on the modify button which is available for 24 hours). If you have missed that window, just post it in another post.
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Thanks again,
I included the link in the first post above. Before I delete that post, is there some way to direct the people who posted to that thread to this new one?
I'd forgotten that Edwin was an Edwin R. Rothwell in the 1851 census. His son, my great grandfather, was named Robert. (Again, the 'Free Cen' site doesn't seem to work for 1851. Not for an Ann Clegg either. ? Which site are you using?)
Thanks again very much.
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I wrote that post from memory. I've just checked and I've been reminded that Edwin's aunt Ann originally hails from Fewston, just north of Leeds per the 1861 census. (I checked the FreeCen site, and while an entry comes up for 1861, none does for 1851. But I have a record from that census as well, for a 6 year old Edwin, that I printed out a few years ago.)
1851
William Clegg, 33, plumber born Rochdale
Ann Clegg, wife, 36, born Otley Yorkshire
Edwin R Rothwell, 6, nephew, born Rochdale
Fewston & Otley are a 3 hour walk apart.
Do you think it might be more likely that William is his maternal uncle, ie. that his mother was a Clegg too, in light of the middle name indicated in 1861, or would he take on that name having been adopted by a William Clegg?
he could be either - the son of William's sister who married a Mr Rothwell
or - the son of Anne's sister who married a Rothwell
I can't see a good Clegg-Rothwell marriage
so it does seem more likely that he is Anne's sister's child. But I don't think you should Assume
modified to add - that I believe Nephew could be a bit of a loose term too.
But I also can't see a good marriage for William Clegg a plumber!
Edwin might have simply taken on Clegg as an acknowledgement of his upbringing.
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Which site are you using?)
I am using Ancestry & FindMyPast, but he is also easily & freely found in 1851 on FamilySearch. Here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGN4-RLB
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I'm looking for free sites. 'Free Cen' (here https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59036918e9379091b1ad4d57/edwin-clegg-rothwell-1861-lancashire-chadderton-1845-?locale=en ) is great for 1861, but doesn't seem to have '51 census records as yet. (?)
I've edited the post on that other thread.
Thanks again.
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His son, my great grandfather, was named Robert.
Thanks again very much.
You will know Edwin married Margaret
Marriages Sep 1866
ROTHWELL Edwin K
SILVERWOOD Margaret
Ulverston 8e/933
Census 1851 shows Margaret SILVERWOOD aged 2 with her family .
Her father is Robert a stone mason and her mother is Jane .
So possibly Edwin' s children Jane and Robert, as they show in census 1871, are named for his wife's parents
This birth should be considered.
ROTHWELL, EDWIN
mms - -
GRO Reference: 1842
D Quarter
ROCHDALE UNION Volume 21 Page 595
Wrong year ::)
Sue
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Can anyone see this child later?
ROTHWELL, KENION -
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in ROCHDALE Volume 21 Page 817
I don't think we care now.
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I'd assumed so re Robert, but I hadn't noticed or I'd forgotten that Edwin has a middle initial R in his census record entry for 1851. I came across bapt. records online for more than one Edwin Rothwell b. 1845 in Rochdale (1 in St. Chad's I think) some years ago, but couldn't find them when I last looked. (?) I'm a bit surprised. So I thought I'd ask when I came across a thread with both Rothwells and Cleggs.
Thanks again.
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incase you hadn't seen them
there is another family of Cleggs in the same street in 1851
Whether or not they are connected I have no idea.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGN4-RLG
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In the will of Ann CLEGG who died in 1873, it looks as if Edwin ROTHWELL maybe had a brother named Joseph.
The proved her will.
Sue
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Likely marriage of the Clegg couple has witnesses as Abraham & Hannah Rothwell.
Willam Clegg - plumber
Marriage Date 30 Dec 1841
Parish Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name James Clegg - hatter
Spouse's Name Ann Eshelby
Spouse's Father's Name John Eshelby - farmer
Both living Oldham Road
Archive Roll 707 - image online
Cas
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1871 - Slack Street, Rochdale
Joseph Rothwell 35 Head
Mary Jane Rothwell 30 Wife
Joseph William Rothwell 6 Son
Albert Edward Rothwell 4 Son
Mary Ann Rothwell 2 Daughter
Joseph Rothwell
Baptism Date 4 Oct 1835
Parish Rochdale, Lancashire, England
Father Abraham Rothwell
Mother Mary Rothwell
Register Type Bishop's Transcripts
Reference Number Drm/2/291
Cas
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Name Abraham Rothwell
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 11 Jul 1833
Parish Rochdale, Lancashire, England
Spouse Mary Eshelby
Register Type Bishop's Transcript
Looks like Edwin is likely nephew to Ann Clegg nee Eshelby
Cas
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Agreeing with Cas (stallc)
Abraham ROCKWELL married Mary Eshelby in 1833. At Rochdale.
Their first child was Joseph in 1835.
Witnesses were John and Lucy ROTHWELL
Sue
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Possible -1851 Civil parish Castleton, Rochdale
Children born Rochdale
Abraham Rothwell 37 Head, Yorkshire (Halifax?)
Mary Rothwell 39 Wife, Yorkshire
James Rothwell 17 Son
Joseph Rothwell 25 (reads 15) Son
Matilda Rothwell 13 Daughter
Alfred Rothwell 4 Son
Richard Rothwell 30 son (reads brother) Yorkshire
Bette Neeld 35 Lodger
Cas
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By 1861, Joseph still lives with his parents Abraham and Mary ROTHWELL.
He is a Woolsorter like his father and aged 25.
Brother Alfred is 14 and there are lodgers.
Sue
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I went to have my dinner and came back to the break through!
I had been planning to look - as Edwin has this daughter
ROTHWELL, MARY ESHELBY SILVERWOOD
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in KENDAL Volume 10B Page 644
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so Edwin should know his father is Abraham, and that is what should be on his marriage certificate.
Is it?
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https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2023/261/259847355_29224eff-1f6a-4785-92ee-f63cc2154b3b.jpeg
Abraham Rothwell
Birth Date 1814
Death Date 31 Mar 1862
Cemetery Rochdale Cemetery and Crematorium
Burial or Cremation Place Rochdale, Metropolitan Borough of Rochdale, Greater Manchester, England
Mary Rothwell
Birth Date 1812
Death Date 9 Jan 1864
Cemetery Rochdale Cemetery and Crematorium
There are others buried same grave on inscription
Cas
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1871 at 12 Packer Street, Rochdale - Rothwell family address in census
Ann Clegg 56 yorkshire
Alfreds Rothwell nephew 24 Rochdale
Plus lodgers
Possibly Ann/William unable to have children Edwin brought up by Aunt. Also able to acquire plumbing trade through William?
Cas
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Yes, Abraham still alive and about at the time Edwin was living with the CLEGG's
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1853-01-01/1853-12-31?basicsearch=%22abraham%20rothwell%22&phrasesearch=abraham%20rothwell&retrievecountrycounts=false
Sue
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Here is the death of Mary ROTHWELL, Abraham's wife in 1864.
(Strangely and coincidently one Mary wife of Wm CLEGG too)
Sue
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Wow, this is like Christmas! (I just woke up and checked my email. I'm in Canada.) Thank you Sue and Cas and mckha489! So Ann was an Eshelby! And it looks like Edwin's mother was an Eshelby.
(Until now there were 3 possibilities re the connection between my great great granddad Edwin and his aunt and uncle William and Ann: 1. William was his maternal uncle, i.e. his mother was a Clegg too; 2. Ann was his maternal aunt, maiden surname u/k [Eshelby, sister of Mary Eshelby]; and 3. that Ann was his paternal aunt, maiden surname Rothwell. This narrows it down to no. 2)
The will you've found Sue is definitely the right one for Ann, for it notes that Edwin was in Kirkby Lonsdale, which is so. He'd moved there, the home of his wife Margaret and originally her father, to have a family. It's a very lovely town. Here's a fun vlog from there: https://youtu.be/wrCf603-VeQ?si=wpaI_Sc4j_0NDx0e My great grandfather was born there. Sadly Edwin's wife Margaret passed there at @ age 31. I don't know if she died from childbirth.) So Ann had nephews Joseph Rothwell per her will and Alfred Rothwell, born in Rochdale, per the 1871 census, both brothers.
It looks very much like Ann was Mary's (Abraham Rothwell's wife's) sister. What a lovely headstone!
I note that John and Lucy Rothwell were witnesses to Abraham's wedding. I know that Edwin had a daughter named Lucy. Was Rothwell her maiden name? Was she the spouse or brother of John? (I'm not suggesting there's any likelihood that Lucy could be an Eshelby too, but it's not unheard of for 2 siblings to marry 2 siblings. It's happened in other branches of my tree.)
I'll check the census records to see whether Edwin sired an Abraham in honour of this man who was likely his father, and a Mary. My great grandfather was a Robert William Rothwell, Robert for his father-in-law I assume, and William for his uncle.
Cas, you mention that Edwin learned the plumbing trade from his uncle William and that Abraham and Mary Rothwell might've agreed that William and Ann Clegg raise him and train him (seeing as he and Ann didn't have other children, and might've been unable to.) The life of a plumber was very much better than that of the average local man in Lancashire in the 1840s and 50s, something Abraham and Mary likely appreciated. Work in the cotton mills was debilitating in fact, as you'd know better than I if you live in northern England.
Ann Clegg nee Eshelby hailed from Fewston just north of Leeds. Do the censuses indicate that Mary was from there as well? (My access to census records is inconsistent just now.)
Thank you again and again!!
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1851 pob looks like Killinghall for Mary
Ann gives her father as John a farmer on marriage in 1841. You could try
https://www.freereg.org.uk/ for BMD
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Possible or maybe too early..but one for the file
Name Mary Eshilby
Gender Female
Birth Date 24 Nov 1808
Baptism Date 5 Feb 1809
Baptism Place Fewston,York,England
Father John Eshilby
Mother Ann
FHL Film Number 0918364, 0100092, 100092, 564370
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Also a possible as address is Killinghall
Name Thomas Eshelby
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 19 Jul 1816
Baptism Date 19 Apr 1817
Baptism Place Ripley, Yorkshire, England
Parish as it Appears Ripley
Father John Eshelby, lab
Mother Anne Eshelby
Another possible -Same place/parents
Name Joshua Eshelby
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 10 Apr 1819
Baptism Date 28 May 1820
Can be found in 1851/ 1861 Killinghall with mother Anne.
Death for Joshua in 1864 Killinghall
Cas
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Dear Cas,
Checking on 'Free Cen' (which only has census records from 1861, 1871 and 1891 [?]) I see that Edwin and Margaret's eldest was a Jane Ann, which makes sense (I think her name was mentioned in a post earlier, named for her maternal grandmother and Ann Clegg), and the 3rd child, a 2nd girl, is named Mary, so that makes sense too (Mary Eshelby/Eshilby). Edwin's father Abraham passed when Edwin was @ 17 yr.s, and who knows what their relationship was like, but Edwin doesn't name his son Abraham, which makes sense too seeing as it seems he was adopted.
Re the Mary Eshilby born in 1808, it's true she's a bit old, Edwin's Mary was born in @ 1812 per both her tombstone and the census, but what I see often in Scottish records is that when a child or an infant dies, the parents will often give the same name to their next born of the same sex. Maybe the Mary born in 1808 was my great x 3 grandmother's elder sister. She was born in Fewston, which is @ 8 - 10 km.s from Killinghall, her place of birth per the census, so ... (Btw, it's interesting how very much my ancestors moved around in the 19th cent.)
Thanks again very much!!! Anything else you find or come across, please let me know. :)
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I forgot to ask something, you mentioned that the 1851 census (which I can't access for some reason) indicates that Abraham Rothwell is from Yorkshire, and might have hailed from Halifax. (You wrote "Abraham Rothwell 37 Head, Yorkshire (Halifax?)") Is there an indication he was or might've been from Halifax? Of course I'm curious about him now and his roots.
Thanks again very much!
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Just a heads up..a large number of trees have these as parents of Mary & Ann. There are girls same ages born to this couple in Northallerton, but they are with parents thoughtout census unmarried. Also he is a Tanner, which is a trade, I think.
John Eshelby (1779-1875)
Eleanor Pallister (1781-1866)
Will check on Abraham
Cas
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Thank you again! I have to log out, but I'll log back on later today or this evening.
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Rechecked census for Halifax for Abraham & brother Richard
Possible
Abode Ovenden.
Name Abraham Rothwell
Baptism Date 13 Jun 1813
Baptism Place Illingworth, St Mary, Yorkshire, England
Parish as it Appears Illingworth, St Mary (Halifax)
Father Abraham Rothwell - occ spool spinner
Mother Mary Rothwell
ILLINGWORTH, in the township of Ovenden, and parish of Halifax, Morley-division of Agbrigg and Morley, liberty of Wakefield, 2½ miles NW. of Halifax, 7 from Bradford. The Church is a perpetual curacy, dedicated to St. Mary, in the deanry of Pontefract.
Cas
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Possible 1841- All b in county ?
Civil parish Rochdale
Abraham Rothwell 60 spool?
Mary Rothwell 60
Richard Rothwell 20
Mary Rothwell 15
Cas
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Marriage online for Thomas Eshelby - witness Abraham Rothwell & Ann Eshelby
Name Thomas Eshelby, ostler
Marriage Age Of Full Age
Marriage Date 17 Feb 1838
Marriage Place Rochdale, St Chad, Lancashire, England
Father John Eshelby - farmer
Spouse Susy Hanson, father Dan Hanson
Reference Number L48/1/4/20
Archive Roll 652
Wonder if this is mother Ann, and possibly in same burial place as Abraham & Mary as on inscription?
Ann Eshelby
Age 88
Estimated Birth Year abt 1778
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec 1866
Death Registration Place Rochdale, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Inferred Death Place Lancashire, United Kingdom
Volume 8e Page 21
Death would fit with what is on inscription. Maybe moves nearer daughters?
Cas
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1851 - Civil parish Bradford
Thomas Eshelby 34 Head, ostler, Killinghall, Yorkshire, England
Susan Eshelby 32 Wife
Dan Eshelby 8 Son
Ellen Eshelby 7 Daughter
John Eshelby 3 Son
Alfred Eshelby 2 Mo Son
same area 1861 with additional children. (Couple also have a son Jonas b 1839 not on census with parents)
Both die before 1871 census.
Cas
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Found another likely son
Name Charles Eshelby
Record Type Baptism
Birth Date 11 Mar 1822
Baptism Date 31 Mar 1822
Baptism Place Ripley, Yorkshire, England
Parish as it Appears Ripley
Father John Eshelby
Mother Anne Eshelby
Abode Killinghall
Think this may connect?
Name Ann Smithson
Record Type Marriage
Marriage Date 15 Feb 1808
Marriage Place Hampsthwaite, Yorkshire, England
Spouse John Eshelby
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Hampsthwaite
Name Ann Smithson
Gender Female
Baptism Date 23 May 1781
Baptism Place Hampsthwaite, Yorkshire, England
Father Joshua Smithson
Mother Isabell Smithson
Good luck with the research
Cas
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I forgot to ask something, you mentioned that the 1851 census (which I can't access for some reason)
I did give a link yesterday to FamilySearch. The 1851 transcripts are there too.
You have to register, but it is free.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGN4-RLB
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Hi,
You were asking about Lucy ROTHWELL who was a witness at the marriage of Abraham ROTHWELL and Mary ESHELBY.
I think she may have been Abraham's sister.
Baptism
Name Lucy Rothwell
Gender Female
Baptism Date 6 Apr. 1806
Baptism Place Illingworth,York,England
Father Abra. Rothwell
Mother Mary
FHL Film Number 0990402 IT 10
She married Joseph WALKER in 1842 in ROCHDALE.
Joseph was a bachelor, shoemaker whose father was a cloth dresser
Lucy was a spinster whose father was Abraham ROTHWELL, a woolsorter.
The witnesses were John ROTHWELL and Jane WALKER
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Thank you again very much Cas, mckha489 and Sue!!!
I've learned so much from you in the last 36 hours. One nice thing is that as difficult as life was in Rochdale in the 1840s, and although Edwin's parents settled there, they hail from lovely, ancient, much more peaceful towns just a little further east. Illingsworth on the northern outskirts of Halifax, Killinghall and Ripley with its lovely church, and idyllic Fewston, a few hours walk from Bolton priory to the west and even closer to Studley park and Fountains Abbey (the Unesco site) to the north. (I found only one Rothwell with 'Find a Grave' in all the cemeteries of greater Halifax, which indicates that Abraham Sr. might have roots elsewhere, although I know that most gravestones don't hold up well after 200 yr.s.)
I will sign up for that heritage site later this summer, as I had done years ago.
Thank you again! More soon.