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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: OurAncestors on Wednesday 29 May 24 12:25 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm wondering where to post my question regarding my ancestor Mary Ann McGuire, She was the mother of my ancestor Patrick Graham who died 1938. I had a wrong death record for her for 1913 which turned out to be a spinster from Byker and the last facts I have are where she is mentioned as on her husband Charles death certificate in 1910. I have asked many questions here about Patrick and his wife Catherine Dixon Coleman. I am still researching Patrick and Catherine's children.
Should I add my question about Mary Ann to one of those topics or start a new one?
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Are you looking for Mary Ann Graham - or Mary Ann McGuire?
The Patrick Graham death in 1938 shows an 1856 birthyear & Charles Graham death in 1910 was b 1849??
Patrick & Catherine married 1898
Charles Graham & Mary Ann McGuire married 1874
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1881 census - Charles Graham b 1853 Ireland Mary Ann b 1856 Newcastle
Could she have remarried after Charles death?
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Thank you
Yes I do have Patrick and Catherine marrying 1898.
The details I have for Charles and Mary Ann marriage,
20/06, 1874, St mary's Catholic Church Clayton St
Mary Ann is 19 years old, a spinster. Charles is 22 years old, a bachelor. Witnesses are Andrew Nugent and Elizabeth Toney. All make their mark (X).
I have various census records for Patrick all say he was born 1875, also known as Alfred Patrick, Alf. See military records in which all 3 names are used. There's lots about him on this forum!
However, I am lacking evidence about Mary Ann and prepared to accept new evidence.
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1881 census - Charles Graham b 1853 Ireland Mary Ann b 1856 Newcastle
Could she have remarried after Charles death?
Yes it's possible. However assuming my facts are correct she was 56 years old, a Roman Catholic, living in Duke Street, when Charles died in the workhouse. Is it likely?
I do have a record of 1911 census Mary Ann Graham a widow living with the McCanns in Rock Street
but I don't know if its the right one.
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As she was a widow her religion would not be a factor. As to her age - there have been older widows who remarried but it’s an unknown really.
Did she report his death? If not - what is the exact wording of the reference to her on his death cert
You need to alter your subject header to show surname as Graham - see my edit above
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1881 census - Charles Graham b 1853 Ireland Mary Ann b 1856 Newcastle
Could she have remarried after Charles death?
Yes it's possible. However assuming my facts are correct she was 56 years old, a Roman Catholic, living in Duke Street, when Charles died in the workhouse. Is it likely?
I do have a record of 1911 census Mary Ann Graham a widow living with the McCanns in Rock Street
but I don't know if its the right one.
As she was a widow her religion would not be a factor. As to her age - there have been older widows who remarried but it’s an unknown really.
Did she report his death? If not - what is the exact wording of the reference to her on his death cert
You need to alter your subject header to show surname as Graham - see my edit above
On Charles death certificate it says he died 24 July in the workhouse hospital. He is 61 years old a general labourer of 33 Duke Street. The informant is Mary Ann Graham widow of the deceased 33 Duke Street. She signs X The mark of Mary Ann Graham. Registered July 25 1910.
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Info only
GRAHAM, PATRICK MCQUIRE
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 89
SS
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857179.0
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/235643206/alfred-patrick-graham
I originally found son, Alfred Patrick Graham in Church Bank Cemetery, Wallsend.
If Mary Ann was 56 when husband died in 1910, might she be the Mary Ann Graham who died in Tynemouth district Dec quarter 1911 age 58?
She may have moved to Wallsend area as son did, perhaps? Might she also be buried at Church Bank Cemetery?
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857179.0
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/235643206/alfred-patrick-graham
I originally found son, Alfred Patrick Graham in Church Bank Cemetery, Wallsend.
If Mary Ann was 56 when husband died in 1910, might she be the Mary Ann Graham who died in Tynemouth district Dec quarter 1911 age 58?
She may have moved to Wallsend area as son did, perhaps? Might she also be buried at Church Bank Cemetery?
Good thinking
Yes her son and his family were in North Shields in 1911 so it would have been feasible for her to move in with them. However I don’t think that is the correct record having looked at it that lady was married to William Graham a farmer and the death notified by her daughter S Graham of Chirton West View.
I sent already for the certificate to check and there is also a 1911 census for that family at chirton west view.
In regards to the church bank cemetery both Patrick and Catherine are buried there also Catherine’s mother Mary ann Coleman and probably because it was both near North Shields and Willington Quay and Willington Quay was where the Colemans lived for a long time.
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I have a death certificate for another Mary Ann Graham who was the sister of Patrick’s wife Catherine. She died of pneumonia influenza in 1918 at 63 bewicke street, informant was her husband Francis Graham (Patrick’s uncle). He also died in 1918. I probably should get a death certificate for Francis and look for where they are buried. There’s nothing on find a grave and no memorial at church bank.
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/271523926/francis-graham?createdMemorial=Yes
I think I may have found Francis & Mary for you at Church Bank.
Let me know if you would like a transfer, if so? I am happy either way.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/271523987/mary-graham
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Hello,
You seem to have a superpower and yes these are my family.
Yes please if you transfer the memorial I will update the bios.
I have been to Church Bank cemetery a number of times looking and not finding and I also looked on FindaGrave so thank you so very much. How special to get this news. I am going to go and have another look armed with the plot info. What I think is happening is that they did not have funds to put up headstones. Both dying in the same year... I know that some of their children moved in with Patrick and Catherine in Front Street/Milburn Place North Shields. A lot of people died of the Spanish flu in 1918, I have sent for Francis's death certificate so will wait and see. You may remember one of my family funded Catherine and Patricks' grave by buying a lease on the plot in 1947 but she would have been only 17. in 1918.
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I am glad these burial finds are helpful. I have now transferred both to you and so you will be able to add to bios as you wish.
North Shields local studies is great as they have index volumes with names of people who were buried at cemeteries in a given year. So I was able to see quite quickly that a Francis and a Mary Graham were buried at Church Bank before moving on to the microfilm which has the full burial info on.
The index volumes also record if the grave was purchased. I did notice when I checked for Francis that he is not recorded as in a register of purchased graves, so I would imagine they will be in unmarked plots.
https://my.northtyneside.gov.uk/category/557/contact-bereavement-services
Perhaps if you email bereavement services they might put up a temporary marker for you so you will know the exact spot. I don't know if this applies but I do know that at least up until fairly recently they were doing this service for free. It might be worth enquiring to see if it is still free.
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Thank you very much
I will ask if they can send me a map with the grave marked on it
I'm fairly sure that there will be other members of my family in church bank so I will get down to the local studies asap
Would those records also be in city library ?
Ive had Francis Grahams dc today and I thought I would share
Francis Graham did die from influenza
His son Francis was the informant
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Hello
I have obtained another certificate for a Francis Graham an infant cousin. I hope this may be useful to someone
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This is very kind of you to post this information for the benefit of others who may be researching the same family. :)
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The name of the informant was the vital clue, Francis Grahams MIL!
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I’ve found this from 1915, maybe our ancestor?
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Here is the record from 1913 a spinster from Byker
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I am glad these burial finds are helpful. I have now transferred both to you and so you will be able to add to bios as you wish.
North Shields local studies is great as they have index volumes with names of people who were buried at cemeteries in a given year. So I was able to see quite quickly that a Francis and a Mary Graham were buried at Church Bank before moving on to the microfilm which has the full burial info on.
The index volumes also record if the grave was purchased. I did notice when I checked for Francis that he is not recorded as in a register of purchased graves, so I would imagine they will be in unmarked plots.
https://my.northtyneside.gov.uk/category/557/contact-bereavement-services
Perhaps if you email bereavement services they might put up a temporary marker for you so you will know the exact spot. I don't know if this applies but I do know that at least up until fairly recently they were doing this service for free. It might be worth enquiring to see if it is still free.
Do you mean the index volumes as in books which you can leaf through?
I did get an email bak from the bereavement services, "For any grave search requests, please contact our office on 0191 643 6070. Please note that a payment of £10 is required before we can carry out each grave search."
I have been at the local studios in Newcastle city library on both the computer version on the microfilm reader and the actual microfilm reader, scrolling through to to find exactly where in Elswick and St. John cemetery my ancestor Charles Graham who died in the workhouse in 1910, was buried and it was a most unpleasant experience, with the neck and shoulders locked (I have mulculoskeletal issues) and the neauseous vertigo from looking at the moving screen as I also have problems with my eyesight.
On the most recent visit I thought "this is horrible, why am I doing this to myself?
I was really very happy a while back around 2021 to be able to look at the original volumes in tyne and wear archives when the microfilm readers were closed due to covid restrictions. I got some fantastic discoveries there.
Because I already have a map of Church bank with the sections marked on it I was able to go and see where my relatives Francis and Mary were buried. Not exactly where but roughly.
So Catherine and Mary Ann were sisters, daughter of John Coleman and Mary Ann Coleman nee Dixon. Mary Ann Coleman nee Dixon was also buried in Church Bank. John Coleman in "Preston" due to dying in the Tynemouth workhouse.
Catherine and Mary Ann Coleman had 4 brothers. Samuel Dixon Coleman died as an infant, 1871-1871.
John Coleman infant death 1873 -1873
John Coleman infant death 1877-1877
James Coleman as far as I know remained single , 1878 -1915 died in WW1 Hooge Belgium.
I think the babies re probably in Church Bank Cemetery.
Please note that Mary Ann Coleman married Francis Graham. All her babies had mother's maiden name Coleman and Father's name Graham.
Her sister Catherine Dixon Coleman married Patrick Graham. Therefore all her babies had mother's maiden name Coleman and Father's name Graham. Do not mix these children up!
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While I was suffering away in the city library I decided to take a photo of a couple of the items on the screen that I thought might have had something to do with the Graham family to make it all worthwhile….
Would it be okay to share them here or would it be a breach of the rules?
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Church Bank cemetery records start at 1879 so the Coleman babies could not have bee interred there.
However, I have found their records under St Peter's Church, Wallsend.
If you would like these memorials which I have added to Find A Grave transferred to you just let me know. I am happy either way.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/273343550/samuel-dixon-coleman?createdMemorial=Yes
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/273343605/john-coleman?createdMemorial=Yes
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/273343674/john-coleman?createdMemorial=Yes
By the way, re the index volumes for North Tyneside Cemeteries (not Church burials) yes I do means there are large books at North Shields local studies, containing indexes - year and names of people buried. This makes researching so much easier and quicker, say, if you find a Fred Bloggs under 1895 at Church Bank or wherever and then you can check the microfilm to see full info to try to ascertain if he is actually your 'Fred Bloggs'. :)
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Just to let you know I have found the above Mary Graham in an entry for Byker and Heaton Cemetery in Section J Plot 86. I have no idea though if there might be a memorial on the grave site or not.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/273372264/mary-graham?createdMemorial=Yes
I have added this too to Find a Grave. If you would like a transfer of this too just let me know
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Yes please!
I will update it with the info I found.
I don't think she is
my relative but someone could be looking for her so adding more details could be useful.
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Hi OurAncestors,
I have recently noticed something which I think is useful so I am mentioning in case this might be of help on occasion when you may be able to go to the North Shields local studies for any of your research.
I have noticed the huge burial index volumes for Church Bank and Holy Cross cemeteries also include a column at the end which indicates if a person's grave was purchased or not. I think this is helpful in this could indicate if someone might have a memorial.
Unfortunately, Preston Cemetery volumes do not show this same feature.
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Thank you for the information about the burial indexes. It will be very interesting to look at next time I am there.
I have been to North Shields local studies to see if I could find any more on the infant burials at St Peters however was told there is no burial record book in the local studies and so I did try to find more about them on the microfiche, with no luck!
Ive also been to have another look at St Peters churchyard but it's very old and a lot of it is overgrown. I think it's likely the infants were buried with adults rather than having individual graves.
There was a sibling, Margaret Dixon Coleman born and died in 1870 in Haverton Hill, Billingham, where her parents were residing. I put the details in a separate post about John Coleman.
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I have now found a likely match in the 1921 census for one of Francis and Mary Ann Grahams orphan children,
Margaret Alice aka Margarita Alicia Graham
Convent of Mercy Wigton
Parents both dead
Date of birth is correct.
Because Francis and Mary Ann Graham both died in 1918 I am trying to find out what happened to their children, as they were all my family members.
Amy information would be gratefully received.
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Graves registers for Elswick Cemetery
They have Charles Graham buried 28 July 1910 in Y 105 (unconsecrated section)
Age given looks like 67 yrs.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJN-F9G9-B
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Thank you, that is useful. Y 105. What does unconsecrated imply, I have seen Records for Charles Graham noting Roman Catholic and St Mary's Clayton St, does Elswick cemetery not have a specific RC section? I have also tried to find a plot map but so far no luck. With a plot map I would be able to go and have a look at where he was planted. I doubt there will be any clues there but with a plot map I can have a rough idea. North Tyneside cemeteries have detailed plot maps. ;)
If any tech expert on this board can link this up with the other post about Charles Graham Elswick and St John that would be helpful?
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Hi
I've found another thread, hope it's the right one!
Roman Catholic burials Newcastle 1910 St. Augustine
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871420.0
I've linked it to this one via the quotes. Hopefully someone may be able to help further.
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What does unconsecrated imply,
Unconsecrated simply means that he wasn’t buried in the section which had been consecrated for use by those belonging to the Established Church, I.e. the Church of England.
The Unconsecrated section of a cemetery was reserved for use by members of non-conformist churches and for members of faiths other than Christianity.