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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: coombs on Saturday 25 May 24 20:10 BST (UK)
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I think we all have ancestors who we see as on the back burner. Brickwalls whom we keep in mind and occasionally revisit them to see if anything new crops up. As we know it is not easy and often we are no more knowledgeable than before, but we still keep them on the backburner. One day we may strike lucky. But if you focus too much on a certain brickwall it can become overwhelming so best to leave that line for a while.
For instance, using an example, my ancestor James Gater, a maltster of Burford, Oxfordshire. Born c1680, died 1737 in Burford. No instances of the surname seem to be in Burford before his 1711 marriage to Hannah Bayliss, and he did not leave a will. I have a beady eye on the James Gater born in 1679 in Lambourn, Berkshire, about 15 miles south of Burford, son of Wm and Eliz. But it is tough trying to establish if they are the same person, or even if they are not. James's son James Gater born 1714 took on a Thomas Wentworth as a baker apprentice in 1745 in Burford and there seems to be several Wentworth families in the Lambourn area and Bedwyn Wilts. James Gater Snr seemed to have work connections to Gt Rissington in Gloucestershire.
And another example is my ancestor John Lucking (c1722-1786) of Foulness, Essex, his age at death was said to be 64 in 1786. I found a website about 20 years ago (long taken down now but seemed legit) which said he was the 1722 born son of Isaiah Lucking and Hannah who moved from nearby Shoebury to Foulness in the late 1720s. But I also found a John Lucking born 1725 in Shoebury to John and Mary Lucking (seems John Snr was a Shoebury parish clerk later on). A John Lucking was buried in Shoebury in 1727, no info as to whether infant or not but not John the clerk as him and Mary had children up to about 1740.
My John (c1722-1786) wed Eliz Otley in 1752 in Foulness and did not have any known children called Isaiah. But it is likely the John born 1722 and John born 1725 were first cousins. But it seems through witnesses to marriages, my John (c1722-1876) had a sister Mary (also known as Eliz) who wed Tho Harper in 1744 in North Shoebury. A Mary Lucking was born 1723 in Shoebury to John and Mary Lucking. Isaiah never seemed to have any known children called Eliz or Mary in the 1720s. But had a Jane and Joseph, as did John Lucking and Mary. Isaiah Lucking's family has been traced back quite a long way to vicars of Bucks, Leicestershire and Yorkshire.
Above are just 2 examples of brickwalls that I occasionally revisit and try to chip away at.
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I have 'brick walls' in each of the 5 trees (3 from my side and 2 from Himself's); like you, Coombs, I 'pop in' occasionally and have an hour's blast picking away at the slightest hint. During lockdown, though, I had a better idea. I've always loved the 'Shoebox', so much so that I had 32 pages. So, I devoted 4 'sessions' to going through each entry. Well, a lot of the entries could just be axed, as research since had ruled them out. But it was surprising how many entries were actually a person I had been looking for...consequently, my 'Shoebox' is now down to 7 pages - but creeping up once again very slowly. My main stumbling blocks now are lack of real evidence as I go further back into the 18th centuries and further...and, in 2 cases, trying to match up 2 branches of what I believe are the same family. One day... ???
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I have 'brick walls' in each of the 5 trees (3 from my side and 2 from Himself's); like you, Coombs, I 'pop in' occasionally and have an hour's blast picking away at the slightest hint. During lockdown, though, I had a better idea. I've always loved the 'Shoebox', so much so that I had 32 pages. So, I devoted 4 'sessions' to going through each entry. Well, a lot of the entries could just be axed, as research since had ruled them out. But it was surprising how many entries were actually a person I had been looking for...consequently, my 'Shoebox' is now down to 7 pages - but creeping up once again very slowly. My main stumbling blocks now are lack of real evidence as I go further back into the 18th centuries and further...and, in 2 cases, trying to match up 2 branches of what I believe are the same family. One day... ???
Usually, as we know FH gets harder the further back you go.
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I keep periodically hacking away at the Keatings and Cummins lot that seem so elusive. Some day I may sort them out - very mysterious lots, both. And I know so little of those Irish roots.
TY
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2 of my ancestors vanished after a certain year, turned out one went to Australia and the other to the USA.
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I revisit brickwalls too. Last night I revisited one and wanted to consult the wonderful Roads family tree that used to be available on Rootsweb, alas no longer. :-(
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Mine are the Pearson family from around Birstall in Yorkshire.
A Mary Pearson married an Eli Collins in 1768 and they went on to have 7 children. Eli passed in 1801 and Mary in 1828.
I have two 25cM+ DNA matches linking to one of their children and dozens more linking to their descendants.
The Collins family are no problem and they go back another century before records dry up.
Mary Pearson’s parentage is in doubt then there is Mary Pearson to deal with.
Yes there are two Mary Pearson’s!
The second married a John Weldrake in 1776 and she had at least three children with him and from two of those children I have descendants of each of them who are DNA matches to me.
Eight years on and still the Brickwall.
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My Wife’s family folklore is that James Allen and his two daughters came over from Ireland in about the 1880’s.
Nope!
They were all born in Manchester, they just lived in an Irish enclave in the City and had English parents, grandparents. The BMD records are there and we have all the certificates.
My Wife’s admixture has Zero Irish heritage.
We keep revisiting, but keep getting the same result.
It is not helped in having no DNA matches down James Allen’s line.
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Is it something to do with those knobbly, gnarled Irish roots, for us all?
TY
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Mine's a great grandfather who is in the census as born in Montreal.I can't find over there and I can't find him when he first came over here.
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The WORST type of brick wall is where you know the answer exists... but it's impossible to piece together.
My ancestor James Parker was baptised in Ryton, Co Durham on 26 July 1789, the only info recorded is "son of John Parker"... no occupation, no mothers name, nothing. There were at least THREE John Parkers married and having children simultaneously in that time period at that location and the parish records give such minimal information it is likely to be impossible to pin point exactly which John is the right one.
Frustrating!!!
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I fully agree with Knight-Sunderland. I have a number I can think of but the main one that sticks out to me is my ancestor Thomas Elliott, who started in the merchant service and went on to become a master mariner. Naturally I assumed at the outset he'd be a very easy one to find as he literally provided his date of birth, 25 July 1825, and the place, Marylebone, Middlesex. His marriage certificate in 1851 says his father was James, a mariner (deceased). And yet, with all this, I haven't had a shred of luck in finding any record of his baptism, but I am certain it must be out there. He moved to Sunderland at some point prior to getting married, and he is on the 1851 census there. There are a bunch of potential Thomas Elliotts in London in 1841, but none seem right, and his mariner's tickets give the impression he may have already gone to sea by then. Hoping one day that elusive baptism will show up.
Another is an ancestor who was born illegitimately in 1874, his birth certificate just giving his mother's name. It means that such a huge chunk of the family tree is missing on that side, but with any luck, one day it can be pieced together and his father's family can be found.
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Hi
I have several brick walls, I keep going back to they & I have just managed to make a break through in the Limb branch.
I noticed I had another Limb family linked to another branch & I followed it back & noticed a separate family that was linked too the Limb's branch.
But I am still working on the connexion. Keeps my quiet.
John
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The WORST type of brick wall is where you know the answer exists... but it's impossible to piece together.
My ancestor James Parker was baptised in Ryton, Co Durham on 26 July 1789, the only info recorded is "son of John Parker"... no occupation, no mothers name, nothing. There were at least THREE John Parkers married and having children simultaneously in that time period at that location and the parish records give such minimal information it is likely to be impossible to pin point exactly which John is the right one.
Frustrating!!!
I have an ancestor called Patience Brown of Bishop Auckland, Co Durham. Born 1759, baptism just says "Daughter of John Brown of Bishop Auckland". I think she had a brother Robert as Patience Stewart witnessed a marriage of Robert Brown in 1797 in BA. Patrice Brown wed my Scottish ancestor John Stewart in 1789 in Bishop Auckland. The 1798-1812 Barrington registers for their later children gave John Stewart's place of birth as Selkirk, and patience a native of Bishop Auckland.
Co Durham does seem to have many many instances of the same surnames, similar to Wales, thus making it harder. Many, many Robson's, Coepland's, Browns, Hodgson's, Wilson's etc.
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One ancestor of interest is Joseph Stillington/Stinnington (c1700-1751) a brickmaker of Romford in Essex who wed twice, at the Fleet prison in London. He was later a collier in Langdon Hills, Essex. He had children Robert, James, Martha and Mary. I descend from Mary. In 1746, Joseph Stillington and John Alsop were allowed to fell wood in Hadleigh, Benfleet and Leigh in Essex. The surname Stillington is mainly a Leicestershire/Rutland and Yorkshire surname. A Michael Stenning wed Joane Alsop in 1705 in Benfleet. They had no known children Joseph but a Son Richard in 1706. Possibly coincidence. A Susan Stilleman wed John Kilby in Langdon Hills in 1730 and Joseph Stillington's 2nd wife was the widow of Robert Kilby, John's brother. Susan was the daughter of Henry Stilleman of Laindon, Essex. Again no Joseph in the family. Stilleman/Stillman/Stillington/Stinnington/Stileman etc. If you add all variants of the surname there were several in Essex, Kent and London but usually Joseph said he was Stinnington or Stillington.
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"I think we all have ancestors who we see as on the back burner. Brickwalls whom we keep in mind and occasionally revisit them to see if anything new crops up."
Hear hear
I've still got all the images printed off and filed for the possibles too. Plus jottings and researched Tree bits drawn in numerous notebooks, plus loose notes that we produced over the last 30 years!
We are like Detectives trying to solve the unsolvable Murder or serious crime.
I think we all have ancestors who we see as on the back burner. Brickwalls whom we keep in mind and occasionally revisit them to see if anything new crops up. As we know it is not easy and often we are no more knowledgeable than before, but we still keep them on the backburner. One day we may strike lucky. But if you focus too much on a certain brickwall it can become overwhelming so best to leave that line for a while.
For instance, using an example, my ancestor James Gater, a maltster of Burford, Oxfordshire. Born c1680, died 1737 in Burford. No instances of the surname seem to be in Burford before his 1711 marriage to Hannah Bayliss, and he did not leave a will. I have a beady eye on the James Gater born in 1679 in Lambourn, Berkshire, about 15 miles south of Burford, son of Wm and Eliz. But it is tough trying to establish if they are the same person, or even if they are not. James's son James Gater born 1714 took on a Thomas Wentworth as a baker apprentice in 1745 in Burford and there seems to be several Wentworth families in the Lambourn area and Bedwyn Wilts. James Gater Snr seemed to have work connections to Gt Rissington in Gloucestershire.
And another example is my ancestor John Lucking (c1722-1786) of Foulness, Essex, his age at death was said to be 64 in 1786. I found a website about 20 years ago (long taken down now but seemed legit) which said he was the 1722 born son of Isaiah Lucking and Hannah who moved from nearby Shoebury to Foulness in the late 1720s. But I also found a John Lucking born 1725 in Shoebury to John and Mary Lucking (seems John Snr was a Shoebury parish clerk later on). A John Lucking was buried in Shoebury in 1727, no info as to whether infant or not but not John the clerk as him and Mary had children up to about 1740.
My John (c1722-1786) wed Eliz Otley in 1752 in Foulness and did not have any known children called Isaiah. But it is likely the John born 1722 and John born 1725 were first cousins. But it seems through witnesses to marriages, my John (c1722-1876) had a sister Mary (also known as Eliz) who wed Tho Harper in 1744 in North Shoebury. A Mary Lucking was born 1723 in Shoebury to John and Mary Lucking. Isaiah never seemed to have any known children called Eliz or Mary in the 1720s. But had a Jane and Joseph, as did John Lucking and Mary. Isaiah Lucking's family has been traced back quite a long way to vicars of Bucks, Leicestershire and Yorkshire.
Above are just 2 examples of brickwalls that I occasionally revisit and try to chip away at.
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My ancestor known as George Hood of Selby with no Baptism or Birth record, rented two of his properties 1812 to 1835 from Ld Petre (per Land Tax), then along with several others in 1835-6 was involved in a Bargain & Sale with the Rt. Hon. William Henry Francis Lord Petre and Henry Charles Howard the Earl of Surrey and the Hon. Edward Robert Petre late of Stapleton Park, but now residing in Brussels, (Registered at Wakefield).
Petre and Surrey and George Hood, sign.
We went to Lancs Archives, Hull University Archives (Hist Centre) and enquired at Essex Record Office about the Petre Stourton Rental records for the Manor of Selby Township, but none found for the years wanted.
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George Hood, Cooper, took over Richard Gibson's business premises (rented from Lord Petre), but we can't use Gibson's Bankruptcy file 1807 - 1810 to check if there was a family relationship with Gibson, because not all files were preserved in the 'B 3' Series (TNA).
We are thwarted by being unable to check other records, due to their non-survival.
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I revisit brickwalls too. Last night I revisited one and wanted to consult the wonderful Roads family tree that used to be available on Rootsweb, alas no longer. :-(
Have you tried searching 'Wayback Machine'
"Explore more than 866 billion web pages saved over time"
https://wayback-api.archive.org/
Mark
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My ancestor known as George Hood of Selby with no Baptism or Birth record, rented two of his properties 1812 to 1835 from Ld Petre (per Land Tax), then along with several others in 1835-6 was involved in a Bargain & Sale with the Rt. Hon. William Henry Francis Lord Petre and Henry Charles Howard the Earl of Surrey and the Hon. Edward Robert Petre late of Stapleton Park, but now residing in Brussels, (Registered at Wakefield).
Petre and Surrey and George Hood, sign.
We went to Lancs Archives, Hull University Archives (Hist Centre) and enquired at Essex Record Office about the Petre Stourton Rental records for the Manor of Selby Township, but none found for the years wanted.
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George Hood, Cooper, took over Richard Gibson's business premises (rented from Lord Petre), but we can't use Gibson's Bankruptcy file 1807 - 1810 to check if there was a family relationship with Gibson, because not all files were preserved in the 'B 3' Series (TNA).
We are thwarted by being unable to check other records, due to their non-survival.
I have followed your other posts about George Hood with great interest and I know the feeling of being stuck at what seems to be a permanent brickwall, or semi permanent. You keep chipping away but just go round in circles.
One ancestor of mine is James Smith, yes Smith, died 1849 and "not born in county" in 1841 census which was Oxfordshire. I am hoping he was just from a surrounding county like Berkshire, Gloucestershire or Buckinghamshire. But he could have originated further afield, he was a tin plate worker. No known settlement records for him have been found, and I am not sure if he was a freeman or did an apprenticeship, if so it may have been a pauper one. The witnesses to his wedding hard back to London and Bucks but no definite link however the Bucks born witness had an aunty who wed a Smith.
And Sarah Bradford, previously Coombs, unknown maiden name (c1791-Feb 1851) died in London, not born in county in 1841. Died just before the 1851 census. Her first husband was George Coombs, and the 1810 Axminster marriage of Geo Coombs to Sarah Davy has been ruled out due to further research.
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Oxford University, City and County Herald, 3rd March 1849
"Feb. 24, aged 59, Mr. James Smith, tin plate worker, Queen street."
Oxford Chronicle and Berks and Bucks
Gazette, 3rd March 1849
"Feb. 24, Mr. James Smith, tin plate worker, Queen street, aged 59."
Second Notice - indexed as the Oxford Chronicle and Reading Gazette. Seems it covers neighbouring counties?
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Around the time of your James Smith's death, an Administration was applied for in 1850, "Court where granted" "C. Durham", by
Timothy Smith, 2 St Giles St. Oxford, Accountant, Son,
John Martin, Surgeon, same city and
Samuel Evens, Tailor, same city.
for:-
James Smith, Gentleman, late of 2 St Giles Street, Oxford.
Those who also signed were:-
Widow, Ann Smith,
John Smith, Oxford.
Joseph Austin, Oxford.
North East Inheritance Project website
https://familyrecords.awh.durham.ac.uk/nei/data/simple.php
Not saying he is related to your James Smith?
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James Smith, Gentleman of Oxford, Probate 1850, in the Index to Death Duty Register (search on f m p) :-
IR 27/132 around 76 (76 & 96 PRO Printed numbering)
IR 27/59 around 96
The above IR 27 indexes give Folio numbers 550 and 506, usually in IR 26
IR 26 search for Surname S 1850 to 1850 returns all folios and several Register types ...
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=S&_cr=IR%2026&_dss=range&_sd=1850&_ed=1850&_ro=any&_st=adv
The Cat Refs required should be amongst these.
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We ordered a TNA Reproduction Estimate giving the full IR 26 Will Register reference AND folio number with Year, Name and Place and they found it (for the Estimate fee fortunately) and gave us an image fee cost.
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The Admin possibly:-
1850, D Qtr, James Smith, 83 years
Registration District Oxford.
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Thanks for the info BushInn1746, not sure if they are related but worth checking out.
I wonder if DNA testing will help crack our James Smith and George Hood cases, or give us some leads.
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Oxford University, City and County Herald, 3rd March 1849
"Feb. 24, aged 59, Mr. James Smith, tin plate worker, Queen street."
Oxford Chronicle and Berks and Bucks
Gazette, 3rd March 1849
"Feb. 24, Mr. James Smith, tin plate worker, Queen street, aged 59."
Second Notice - indexed as the Oxford Chronicle and Reading Gazette. Seems it covers neighbouring counties?
Excellent find, thanks. Oxford Chronicle and Berks and Bucks sounds interesting, covering 3 counties. Age at death give a 1789/1790 year of birth, however as we know ages can be inaccurate in records. I have him in 1841 aged 45 (rounded down). From my research I have, the 2 witnesses to his 1819 Oxford wedding were Andrew Carney and Hannah Hawkes. Hannah's father was Jonas Hawkes, whose sister Elizabeth born 1767 wed Joseph Smith in 1786 in Marsh Gibbon, Bucks. Andrew Carney was a gold plate setter, living in Oxford in 1819. He seems to have been a Londoner as I traced him in the 1841 census in Clerkenwell, Middlesex (born in county). Wonder if he was related or a pal who worked in a similar trade?
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Finally got back 1939 registry entries from NI, one family member date of birth confirmed a "possible" birth record I already had (but without enough info on its own). Alas the other date of birth for the couple doesn't help - even manually going through the records. Though bizarrely it's the same DOB as the next entry after the "possible" birth record I have for that individual (theoretically a swap in transcribing the lines could be possible - but really another piece of info would then be needed to really confirm).
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James Smith, Gentleman of Oxford
Oxford Chronicle and Berks and Bucks Gazette, 16th November 1950
"Nov. 9, aged 83, Mr. James Smith, St. Giles’s Street, St. Mary Magdalen."
Oxford University, City and County Herald, 16th November 1850
"Nov. 9, aged 83, Mr. James Smith, St. Giles's Street."
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Tin Plate, Brazier, sometimes these were called White-Smiths.
Found the following with Oxford links or their children marrying Oxford, England (Father on Marriages).
1840s to 1850s.
James Smith, Gent.
James Smith, Tin Plate worker.
James Smith, Baker.
James Smith, Soldier.
James Smith, Labourer.
The Owner of some of the houses in Broadwater's Yard, Queen Street, Oxford, was Mr Goddard.
1850s
Apart from a request by Mr Goddard for a light to the Local Board (refused - Privately owned Alley) and a separate Public Health Report, there is not much for this Broadwater's Yard address.
On the sanatory condition of Oxford. By W. P. Ormerod
1848
https://books.google.com/books/about/On_the_sanatory_condition_of_Oxford_By_W.html?id=aWTWt9QkwYQC#v=onepage&q=%22Broadwater%20Yard%22&f=false
In 1839, there was a Thomas Henry Annesley, Whitesmith, Locksmith & Bellhanger, giving the Yard as his address.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=879761.msg7539278#msg7539278
Do you have any other Smith children marrying, besides Eliza Smith?
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Another brickwall of mine relates to a 96cM DNA match.
A surname of Atherton and with a forename that I will keep to myself, with no family tree and no response to messages.
The problem was that there are over 120 (forename) Atherton’s born from 1940 to 1980 so a needle in a haystack.
Five years of ad hoc reviews and finally nailed him (probably) as a 2C1R.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=879761.msg7539278#msg7539278
Do you have any other Smith children marrying, besides Eliza Smith?
1856 Long Wittenham, Berkshire, 20 October, Marriage.
George Smith, 24, Tinman & Brazier, Residence Oxford S Peter le Bailey, Father James Smith, Tin Man & Brazier.
&
Eliza Champ, 23, Spinster, Long Wittenham, Thomas Champ.
Present: Ann Pool ; James Pool
Berks Archive D/p153/1/8
NOT SEEN marriage image, info from transcription.
1861 Basingstoke, Hampshire
George Smith, 27, Tinman & Brazier, born Oxfordshire, Oxford.
Eliza Smith, 26, born Berks, Long Whittenham.
1871 & 1891 at Winchester Road, Basingstoke.
Eliza's Birthplaces given as Long Whittenham / Long Whitham.
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Those Present at the above Marriage look to be:-
1853 Long Wittenham 16th October, by Banns.
James Pool, 23, Bachelor, Labourer, Long Wittenham, Richard Pool, Labourer.
&
Ann Champ, 23, Spinster, Long Wittenham, Thomas Champ, Labourer.
Present: Amy Thatcher ; Eliza Eason
From Transcription - NOT SEEN image.
Berkshire Archives D/p153/1/8 Parish Records.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=879761.msg7539278#msg7539278
Do you have any other Smith children marrying, besides Eliza Smith?
Hi, I have William James Smith born 1821 who wed in 1844 in Oxford to Sarah Smart.
Elizabeth Smith born 1831 in Oxford who wed 1857 to Alfred Drury.
Charles Smith born 1838 in oxford who wed in London in 1859 to Amelia Stubbs.
One of James Smith's daughters seems to vanish after the 1861 census, Ann Smith born 1833 in Oxford. Last seen on the 1861 census aged 28 unmarried, servant born St Peter Le Bailey, servant to Isaac West, living at 67 St Giles Street, Oxford.
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Tin Plate, Brazier, sometimes these were called White-Smiths.
Found the following with Oxford links or their children marrying Oxford, England (Father on Marriages).
1840s to 1850s.
James Smith, Gent.
James Smith, Tin Plate worker.
James Smith, Baker.
James Smith, Soldier.
James Smith, Labourer.
The Owner of some of the houses in Broadwater's Yard, Queen Street, Oxford, was Mr Goddard.
1850s
Apart from a request by Mr Goddard for a light to the Local Board (refused - Privately owned Alley) and a separate Public Health Report, there is not much for this Broadwater's Yard address.
On the sanatory condition of Oxford. By W. P. Ormerod
1848
https://books.google.com/books/about/On_the_sanatory_condition_of_Oxford_By_W.html?id=aWTWt9QkwYQC#v=onepage&q=%22Broadwater%20Yard%22&f=false
In 1839, there was a Thomas Henry Annesley, Whitesmith, Locksmith & Bellhanger, giving the Yard as his address.
Thanks very much for the info, and for the George Smith wedding in 1856. So a tin plate worker may also be known as a whitesmith?
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=879761.msg7539278#msg7539278
Do you have any other Smith children marrying, besides Eliza Smith?
1856 Long Wittenham, Berkshire, 20 October, Marriage.
George Smith, 24, Tinman & Brazier, Residence Oxford S Peter le Bailey, Father James Smith, Tin Man & Brazier.
&
Eliza Champ, 23, Spinster, Long Wittenham, Thomas Champ.
Present: Ann Pool ; James Pool
Berks Archive D/p153/1/8
NOT SEEN marriage image, info from transcription.
1861 Basingstoke, Hampshire
George Smith, 27, Tinman & Brazier, born Oxfordshire, Oxford.
Eliza Smith, 26, born Berks, Long Whittenham.
1871 & 1891 at Winchester Road, Basingstoke.
Eliza's Birthplaces given as Long Whittenham / Long Whitham.
1901 London St Paul, Deptford, Greenwich, Eccl Dist Christchurch
25 Giffin Street
George Smith, Head, M, 64, Tin Smith, Own Account, born Oxford.
Jane Smith, Wife, M, 30, Machinist nk, born London Borough.
George Smith, Tin Plate Worker / Tin Smith, born Oxford, looks to have remarried?
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1881 Basingstoke
7 Winchester Road
Census Schedule No 29
George Smith Head, Mar, 44, Tin Plate Worker, born Oxford.
Eliza Smith, Wife, Mar, 47, born Berks Whitenham
Coincidence or what, Smith next Schedule No.
1881 Basingstoke. (Previous image)
Census Schedule No. 28
Rose Hill, Basingstoke
James Smith, Head, Mar, 73, Retired Seedsman, born Hants, Basingstoke.
All Born Hants Basingstoke.
Grace Smith, Wife, Mar, 59,
Charlotte Smith, Daur, 43 School Mistress,
Elizabeth Smith, Daur, 21, Do
Charles Smith, Son, 18, [occupation ?]
Frank Smith, Son, 16, Ironmongers Apprentice
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A person who worked with Tin and sheet metals was sometimes called a Whitesmith.
Some Whitesmiths polished or burnished items, to a bright finish or plated metal items.
Added -
See also Tinning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinning#History
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1851 St Peter Le Bailey, Queen Street, Oxford, England.
Sarah Smith, Head, W, 54, Laundress, Oxon, Oxford.
Elizabeth Smith, Daur, U, 19, Oxford.
Ann Smith, Daur, U, 18, Oxford.
George Smith, Son, U, 15, Tinman & Braziers App, born Oxford.
Charles Smith, Son, - , 13 Labourer in Cocoa Manufac'y, born Oxford.
1836, Baptism St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford.
25 June, George Son of James & Sarah Smith,
Abode: Broadwater's Yard, Arnold's Passage,
Trade: Tin Plate Worker & glazier,
By whom, [initial?] Reay, Curate.
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Oxford Chronicle and Berks and Bucks Gazette, 28th December 1850.
LARGE and substantial WORKSHOPS, situ-ate in Broadwater’s Passage, Queen Street, Oxford, now in the occupation of Mr. Wagstaff, currier, will be SOLD BY AUCTION early in the ensuing month.
Further Particulars ...
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Oxford Journal, 21st February 1852
Street Commissioners' Meeting
...
Mr. Charles Ward attended and complained on behalf of Mr. Goddard, the owner of several houses in Broadwater's yard, Queen-street, of the inconveniences which his tenants suffered for want of a lamp in that yard, and the nuisance ...
The Principal of Brasenose College said he did not see how they could open the question of lighting private property after the decision which the Board pronounced at their last meeting. ...
Mr Ward replied that there were 16 occupiers of houses in that yard, and the owners considered that, as they paid a large amount for lighting and paving, they were entitled to a light. ...
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1851 St Peter Le Bailey, Queen Street, Oxford, England.
Sarah Smith, Head, W, 54, Laundress, Oxon, Oxford.
Elizabeth Smith, Daur, U, 19, Oxford.
Ann Smith, Daur, U, 18, Oxford.
George Smith, Son, U, 15, Tinman & Braziers App, born Oxford.
Charles Smith, Son, - , 13 Labourer in Cocoa Manufac'y, born Oxford.
1835, Baptism St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford.
25 June, George Son of James & Sarah Smith,
Abode: Broadwater's Yard, Arnold's Passage,
Trade: Tin Plate Worker & glazier,
By whom, [initial?] Reay, Curate.
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Oxford Chronicle and Berks and Bucks Gazette, 28th December 1850.
LARGE and substantial WORKSHOPS, situ-ate in Broadwater’s Passage, Queen Street, Oxford, now in the occupation of Mr. Wagstaff, currier, will be SOLD BY AUCTION early in the ensuing month.
Further Particulars ...
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Oxford Journal, 21st February 1852
Street Commissioners' Meeting
...
Mr. Charles Ward attended and complained on behalf of Mr. Goddard, the owner of several houses in Broadwater's yard, Queen-street, of the inconveniences which his tenants suffered for want of a lamp in that yard, and the nuisance ...
The Principal of Brasenose College said he did not see how they could open the question of lighting private property after the decision which the Board pronounced at their last meeting. ...
Mr Ward replied that there were 16 occupiers of houses in that yard, and the owners considered that, as they paid a large amount for lighting and paving, they were entitled to a light. ...
Sarah Smith was an Inkpen by birth and her father was William Inkpen (1769-unknown death date). His father was William Inkpen born c1730 and the surname is unknown in Oxfordshire before 1765 so I guess he originally came from Dorset or Sussex or Kent which is where the main Inkpen families live. Wm Snr was a college servant in 1765 then a publican and died soon after his son Wm Inkpen Jnr was born in 1769.
I do wonder if James Smith was connected in any way to Andrew Carney or Hannah Hawkes, who witnessed his 1819 wedding.
-
1851 St Peter Le Bailey, Queen Street, Oxford, England.
Sarah Smith, Head, W, 54, Laundress, Oxon, Oxford.
Elizabeth Smith, Daur, U, 19, Oxford.
Ann Smith, Daur, U, 18, Oxford.
George Smith, Son, U, 15, Tinman & Braziers App, born Oxford.
Charles Smith, Son, - , 13 Labourer in Cocoa Manufac'y, born Oxford.
1836, Baptism St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford.
25 June, George Son of James & Sarah Smith,
Abode: Broadwater's Yard, Arnold's Passage,
Trade: Tin Plate Worker & glazier,
By whom, [initial?] Reay, Curate.
----------
I have changed the above Baptism year, it reads 1836 top of the page.
This looks to be his Marriage ...
1856 Long Wittenham, Berkshire, 20 October, Marriage.
George Smith, 24, Tinman & Brazier, Residence Oxford S Peter le Bailey, Father James Smith, Tin Man & Brazier.
&
Eliza Champ, 23, Spinster, Long Wittenham, Thomas Champ.
Present: Ann Pool ; James Pool
Berks Archive D/p153/1/8
NOT SEEN marriage image, info from transcription.
1861 Basingstoke, Hampshire
George Smith, 27, Tinman & Brazier, born Oxfordshire, Oxford.
Eliza Smith, 26, born Berks, Long Whittenham.
1871 & 1891 at Winchester Road, Basingstoke.
Eliza's Birthplaces given as Long Whittenham / Long Whitham.
A Tree on Ancestry has George Smith above, marrying someone else (but no Registrar or GRO, B, M, D, Certificates).
George Smith, Tin Smith below in 1901, looks to be the earlier Tin Plate Worker, but remarried by 1901?
1901 London St Paul, Deptford, Greenwich, Eccl Dist Christchurch
25 Giffin Street
George Smith, Head, M, 64, Tin Smith, Own Account, born Oxford.
Jane Smith, Wife, M, 30, Machinist nk, born London Borough.
George Smith, Tin Plate Worker / Tin Smith, born Oxford, looks to have remarried?
----------
1881 Basingstoke
7 Winchester Road
Census Schedule No 29
George Smith Head, Mar, 44, Tin Plate Worker, born Oxford.
Eliza Smith, Wife, Mar, 47, born Berks Whitenham
-------------------------------------------------------
There was another George Smith, baptised in October 1835 at St Peter Le Bailey Oxford, with different parents, different abode and Father's occupation.
-
Thanks, I shall have to see when George remarried and moved to London.
-
1861 New Street, Oxford, England.
William J Smith, Head, Mar, 39 Tin Plate Worker, Oxford.
Sarah Smith, Wife, Mar, 38, Ironer in Laundry, Bucks High Wycombe.
Edw Simpson, Nephew, 6, Oxon, Oxford.
I can't get anywhere with this young Simpson chap?
What did you and anyone else make of him?
There seems to be 3 Simpson families having children, looking at GRO Registrations Mother's M.S. ... Bossom ; Wilson ; Hanks
Mark
Hi, I have William James Smith born 1821 who wed in 1844 in Oxford to Sarah Smart.
Elizabeth Smith born 1831 in Oxford who wed 1857 to Alfred Drury.
Charles Smith born 1838 in oxford who wed in London in 1859 to Amelia Stubbs.
One of James Smith's daughters seems to vanish after the 1861 census, Ann Smith born 1833 in Oxford. Last seen on the 1861 census aged 28 unmarried, servant born St Peter Le Bailey, servant to Isaac West, living at 67 St Giles Street, Oxford.
-
1861 New Street, Oxford, England.
William J Smith, Head, Mar, 39 Tin Plate Worker, Oxford.
Sarah Smith, Wife, Mar, 38, Ironer in Laundry, Bucks High Wycombe.
Edw Simpson, Nephew, 6, Oxon, Oxford.
I can't get anywhere with this young Simpson chap?
What did you and anyone else make of him?
There seems to be 3 Simpson families having children, looking at GRO Registrations Mother's M.S. ... Bossom ; Wilson ; Hanks
Mark
Hi, I have William James Smith born 1821 who wed in 1844 in Oxford to Sarah Smart.
Elizabeth Smith born 1831 in Oxford who wed 1857 to Alfred Drury.
Charles Smith born 1838 in oxford who wed in London in 1859 to Amelia Stubbs.
One of James Smith's daughters seems to vanish after the 1861 census, Ann Smith born 1833 in Oxford. Last seen on the 1861 census aged 28 unmarried, servant born St Peter Le Bailey, servant to Isaac West, living at 67 St Giles Street, Oxford.
Not sure where this Simpson chap fits in either. I have had a look myself.
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Meant to say those 3 Simpson couples registering Births, were in the Reg'n District of Oxford only.
1861
William J. Smith (as above)
Sarah Smith (as above)
Edw Simpson, Nephew, 6, born Oxon, Oxford
(f m p transcribe Edward).
Only other full names I can think of:- Edwin / Edwyn?
Looks like Simpson surname?
Just imagine if he was linked to an unknown Smith relative?
-
Two of the four Simpson marriages registering Births (around the time of Edw Simpson) in the Oxford & Headington Reg'n Districts:-
1844 Oxford, St Thomas, by Banns
Joseph Simpson, Boatman, (Father, Robert Simpson) and
Ellen Bossom, (Father, Chas Bossom).
Present (wits) John Humpriss his mark ; M. Lewis.
1840 Oxford, St Giles with St Mary, by Banns,
28 Oct'r.
John Simson, (Father, William Simson)
and
Maria Kearse, (Father, William Kearse).
Present (wits) George Plester ; Harriet Elkins.
----------
Free BMD has this Female Birth listed:-
1855 Simson, Female, Reg'n District Oxford.
-
Another Marriage (3rd found) of the 4 couples registering Simpson Births in the Reg'n District of Oxford.
1845, 21 Dec'r Oxford, St Peter Le Bailey by Banns.
Charles Simpson, B, Groom, Broken Hays, Thomas Simpson, Labourer.
And
Frances Charlotte Hanks, S, Broken Hays, Nathaniel Hanks, Carpenter.
Present (wits) William Russell ; Elizabeth Smallman.
Can't find Simpson = Wilson, marriage.
Two Sampson Baptisms (parent of one married as Simpson?)
1857 St Ebbe, Oxford
Robert Sampson, S of Robert & Eliza Mary Ann Sampson, Littlegate, Tailor.
Seems to be their Marriage? ...
1853 Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Robert Simpson, 21, Taylor, Robert Simpson, Taylor.
And
Eliza Maria Ann Andrews, 20, Wm Andrews, Commercial Traveller.
(Signed Robert Samsiren & Eliza Mary Ann Andrews)
Present (wits) George Newman ; Hannah Newman ; William Brown.
Married as Simpson, baptism of child Sampson
----------
1854 St Ebbe Baptism
Charles Stevens Sampson, S of James & Susan Sampson, Beef Lane, Tailor.
Listed on one site as Charles Stevenson Sampson, but image says Stevens.
Possible marriage ...
1846, 27th Dec'r, St Martin in the Fields
James Sampson, Bach, Tailor, Robert Sampson, Tailor.
And
Susan Stevens, Spinster, Issac Stevens, Excise Officer.
Present (wits): John Seymour ; Mary Ann Pipen? (or Mary Ann Piper?)
----------
Comments
In the Oxfordshire Archives there might be Nonconformist Registers of Births too, for mid 1850s?
I'll leave you to go through the Census and BMD, Baptisms etc, but plenty of possible couples and some surname combinations also online, for the parents of the mystery 'Edw Simpson'.
Oxford seems to have a lot of Parishes too.
The 1851 Map of Registration Districts on Family Search seems to show the Sub-districts, which might possibly be used in later Census as Birthplaces, if 'Edw Simpson' survived long enough.
We don't know if Edw was a middle or aka family forename?
Also Oxford not far from Berkshire.
1861
'Edw Simpson' 6, Nephew, might be related to Smith's Wife? I had this with a Cousin of a Male Household Head.
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Yes I guess William Smith could describe Edwin Simpson as a nephew when he was a nephew by marriage.
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1851 St Peter Le Bailey, Queen Street, Oxford, England.
Sarah Smith, Head, W, 54, Laundress, Oxon, Oxford.
Elizabeth Smith, Daur, U, 19, Oxford.
Ann Smith, Daur, U, 18, Oxford.
George Smith, Son, U, 15, Tinman & Braziers App, born Oxford.
Charles Smith, Son, - , 13 Labourer in Cocoa Manufac'y, born Oxford.
1836, Baptism St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford.
25 June, George Son of James & Sarah Smith,
Abode: Broadwater's Yard, Arnold's Passage,
Trade: Tin Plate Worker & glazier,
By whom, [initial?] Reay, Curate.
----------
I have changed the above Baptism year, it reads 1836 top of the page.
This looks to be his Marriage ...
1856 Long Wittenham, Berkshire, 20 October, Marriage.
George Smith, 24, Tinman & Brazier, Residence Oxford S Peter le Bailey, Father James Smith, Tin Man & Brazier.
&
Eliza Champ, 23, Spinster, Long Wittenham, Thomas Champ.
Present: Ann Pool ; James Pool
Berks Archive D/p153/1/8
NOT SEEN marriage image, info from transcription.
1861 Basingstoke, Hampshire
George Smith, 27, Tinman & Brazier, born Oxfordshire, Oxford.
Eliza Smith, 26, born Berks, Long Whittenham.
1871 & 1891 at Winchester Road, Basingstoke.
Eliza's Birthplaces given as Long Whittenham / Long Whitham.
A Tree on Ancestry has George Smith above, marrying someone else (but no Registrar or GRO, B, M, D, Certificates).
George Smith, Tin Smith below in 1901, looks to be the earlier Tin Plate Worker, but remarried by 1901?
1901 London St Paul, Deptford, Greenwich, Eccl Dist Christchurch
25 Giffin Street
George Smith, Head, M, 64, Tin Smith, Own Account, born Oxford.
Jane Smith, Wife, M, 30, Machinist nk, born London Borough.
George Smith, Tin Plate Worker / Tin Smith, born Oxford, looks to have remarried?
----------
1881 Basingstoke
7 Winchester Road
Census Schedule No 29
George Smith Head, Mar, 44, Tin Plate Worker, born Oxford.
Eliza Smith, Wife, Mar, 47, born Berks Whitenham
-------------------------------------------------------
There was another George Smith, baptised in October 1835 at St Peter Le Bailey Oxford, with different parents, different abode and Father's occupation.
Small update on James Smith. I did find in November 1811, a James Smith, was made a freeman of the company of tin plate workers. City of London Freedom Admission Papers have some updated records.
Not sure if it is my James Smith, tin plate worker later of Oxford but worth a shot. The 1811 document said James Smith was of Newgate Street, a mans mercer made a freeman of the company f tin plate workers. Sworn by W Mitton, clerk to the company. Paid to Mr Chamberlain.
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There is a website of the current Company, it seems they are classed as a Livery
I am not sure if a Guild is separate, or whether they are a Guild too.
The Worshipful Company of Tin Plate Workers Alias Wire Workers of The City of London
https://tinplateworkers.co.uk/
Added
Might be worth reading up about the Oxford Guilds and Companies and if any records survive?
Craft Guilds
A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 4, the City of Oxford. Originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1979.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol4
-------------
As well as the County Archives you should also enquire here ...
Bodleian Library, Oxford
https://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/home
This Archive is no ordinary Library and they hold many historic manuscript records for other places too.
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Thanks that is worth a shot. He could have been apprenticed in London then moved to Oxford, or may have been apprenticed in Oxford. Bat as he put "not born in county of residence" in 1841 census in Oxford, county of Oxfordshire, it is proving tough trying to find his origins, as he died in 1849, 2 years prior to the 1851 census which gave more accurate birthplaces.
As said, one of the witnesses to his marriage in 1819 in Oxford was Andrew Carney. I traced him later on and he was from London originally born c1788. He was a turner and gold plate setter. Andrew died in 1845 in Clerkenwell.
Due to the common name of Smith, there may have been 2 James Smith's who were tin plate workers, or more, circa 1812 in the UK.
-
Numerous additions / changes to this post
Found sited in Gunmakers of Oxford, the names of various Directories & Poll Books
Universal British Directory 1791 (Countywide), 5 Volumes, (Main Traders in the Main Towns listed in the Index)
Two Volumes are online for free (one online is V. 2)
1802 Freemans Poll
Pigot's 1823
Pigot’s 1829 / 1830 Directory
Vincent’s Oxford Directory 1835
Vincent's Oxford, University, City and County Directory 1835 (Bodleian Library).
Robson’s Commercial Directory 1839
Hunt & Co’s Oxford Directory 1846
Hunt's City of Oxford Directory 1846 (Bodleian)
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I got one set of 1823 Directory scans on CD for another county from S&N Genealogical Supplies, which mentioned one of three of my ancestors in business in Northampton.
S & N Gen. Supplies.
This CD resource contains the 1823 and 1844 Pigot's directories for Oxfordshire. It carries local listings of major professions, of nobility, gentry, ...
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The Oxfordshire Archives produce a Pdf List of Directories they hold called (found on google)
Oxfordshire Directories at Oxfordshire History Centre
https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/museums-and-history/oxfordshire-history-centre/collections-archives-and-records/newspapers-and-periodicals
---------------
Some Digital resources for Oxfordshire history, apparently on Google Books
https://www.oxfordshirehistory.org.uk/public/directories_google.htm
Vincent 1835 Directory does not even seem to list a Blacksmith?
James Smith search
https://heritagesearch.oxfordshire.gov.uk/search/all:combined/0_50/all/score_desc/%22James%20Smith%22
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Thanks that is worth a shot. He could have been apprenticed in London then moved to Oxford, or may have been apprenticed in Oxford. Bat as he put "not born in county of residence" in 1841 census in Oxford, county of Oxfordshire, it is proving tough trying to find his origins, as he died in 1849, 2 years prior to the 1851 census which gave more accurate birthplaces.
As said, one of the witnesses to his marriage in 1819 in Oxford was Andrew Carney. I traced him later on and he was from London originally born c1788. He was a turner and gold plate setter. Andrew died in 1845 in Clerkenwell.
Due to the common name of Smith, there may have been 2 James Smith's who were tin plate workers, or more, circa 1812 in the UK.
PROB 11/1730/487
28 September 1827
PCC Will (Copy) for a James Carney of Eaton Court, Pimlico, Middlesex.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D166188
I've not downloaded but this James Carney, Will, (not easy to read in preview mode with angled wording across) seemed to say:-
Wife was Ann Carney.
Daughter was Margaret Slater.
Daughter was Bridget Stone (or Hone).
Executors: William Slater and Henry Stone.
I have my doubts re Hone alternative and not checked the marriage on Anc.
Seems no Andrew Carney, but have these surnames cropped up in your past Carney searches.
There may be other Carney Wills (non PCC) registered at other archives.
Duty Indexes (IR 27)
Death Duty Index (listed by f m p under 1827) appears to name one Executor as Wm Slater, 8 Eaton Court Pimlico and refers to Volume 3 at Folio 911.
Duty Registers
The Duty Registers are in IR 26 by Surname Letter, Probate Year and Folio ranges.
Just ordered a TNA page check and another Duty Register Wills entry for one of my family (despite having printed images of the 1861 Will Copy recorded in the Book at Wakefield).
Bear in mind there are sometimes several types of Duty Registers in IR 26, I usually go for a Duty Wills Register page check first, of the relevant full TNA Cat Ref., supplying the Testator's name, place and the Inland Revenue Fol. Number.
-
Thanks that is worth a shot. He could have been apprenticed in London then moved to Oxford, or may have been apprenticed in Oxford. Bat as he put "not born in county of residence" in 1841 census in Oxford, county of Oxfordshire, it is proving tough trying to find his origins, as he died in 1849, 2 years prior to the 1851 census which gave more accurate birthplaces.
As said, one of the witnesses to his marriage in 1819 in Oxford was Andrew Carney. I traced him later on and he was from London originally born c1788. He was a turner and gold plate setter. Andrew died in 1845 in Clerkenwell.
Due to the common name of Smith, there may have been 2 James Smith's who were tin plate workers, or more, circa 1812 in the UK.
PROB 11/1730/487
28 September 1827
PCC Will (Copy) for a James Carney of Eaton Court, Pimlico, Middlesex.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D166188
I've not downloaded but this James Carney, Will, (not easy to read in preview mode with angled wording across) seemed to say:-
Wife was Ann Carney.
Daughter was Margaret Slater.
Daughter was Bridget Stone (or Hone).
Executors: William Slater and Henry Stone.
I have my doubts re Hone alternative and not checked the marriage on Anc.
Seems no Andrew Carney, but have these surnames cropped up in your past Carney searches.
There may be other Carney Wills (non PCC) registered at other archives.
Duty Indexes (IR 27)
Death Duty Index (listed by f m p under 1827) appears to name one Executor as Wm Slater, 8 Eaton Court Pimlico and refers to Volume 3 at Folio 911.
Duty Registers
The Duty Registers are in IR 26 by Surname Letter, Probate Year and Folio ranges.
Just ordered a TNA page check and another Duty Register Wills entry for one of my family (despite having printed images of the 1861 Will Copy recorded in the Book at Wakefield).
Bear in mind there are sometimes several types of Duty Registers in IR 26, I usually go for a Duty Wills Register page check first, of the relevant full TNA Cat Ref., supplying the Testator's name, place and the Inland Revenue Fol. Number.
Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.
He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.
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Keep trying to "un notify" on this - can't even find the bit to click, now.
TY
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TY the Unnotify button is next to the "Reply" button.
Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.
He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.
On the 1842 Marriage you will find one of those present (witness) signed as Mary Ann Carney.
1832
One possible suggestion for witness Mary Ann Carney (at 1842 Marriage) is Mary Ann Arle marrying James Carney 9th January 1832.
Present as witnesses at the 1832 Marriage by Banns (Banns Dec 1831 - Jan 1832) at St Anne Westminster, Middlesex, were:- John Horsey ; Jane "Corn*y" [ Jane Carney ]
* not an 'e' but probably meant to be.
Are you able to get the 1832 couple in the Census?
Looks like surname Horsey and the other Jane Corney [ Jane Carney ]
Mark
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Added: One possible for Jane Corney, present as a witness at the 1832 Marriage, above ...
1764 - 1819 London, England: Corney to Box to Smith link?
St Brides, Fleet Street, London, England, 1st August 1819
James Corney married Jane Box, Spinster
In the Presence of:-
Daniel OKeefe
JAMES SMITH
Added:
But his in 1819 signature looks like James Ca*ney? [ James Carney ]
* joined on to the 'a' possibly meant to be an r?
James Smith, could sign his own name quite nicely.
-------------
Further Additions
1819, 27th Oct
Baptisms in the City of London Lying in Hospital, Middlesex
Child - James Corney
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Queens Arms Cot, Blackfriars Road,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Porter,
----------
Baptisms 1822
St John the Evangelist, Westminster, Middlesex.
Oct 13
Born May 25 1821
Child - William Son of
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Rochester Row,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Coachman
I'll leave it up to you, if you want to check this family out for more children and find them in later Census?
----------
Incidentally, there is an Andrew Carney, Abode Bishopsgate, aged 31 yrs, buried City of London and Tower Hamlets Cemetery, Sunday June 5th 1859.
Certificate Received Yes, so it looks like his Death was Registered with the Registrar, in accord with the Registration Act.
Andrew Carney was one of results when searching for a baptism.
----------
Thinking out of the Box (as the day goes on the puns might get worse)
27th May 1764 (Banns also online too)
St Bride, Fleet Street, City of London
"Box & Smith" [margin]
James Box Batch'r and Barbara Smith, Spins'r both of this Parish were Married in this church by Banns
In the Presence of Jane Davis ; Edward James
Regards Mark
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Hi mark, thanks for the new info I shall look into it. If it is any help here is the signature of my James Smith who wed Sarah Inkpen in 1819 in Oxford. This also has Andrew Carney's signature.
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Not the same James Smith signature.
But your James Smith family may have had same named individuals in parallel lines, or even a father perhaps?
Or a coincidence, the harder one looks, the more alternative connections, sometimes can be made.
James and Barbara Box, had a Son John baptised and James Box, Occupation was given.
----------
There is another James Box, who left a Will, Proved 1780 PCC, who was a Smith and a Brazier of Brook Street, in the Parish of St George, Hanover Square, Middlesex.
Requesting to buried in the Burial Ground at Paddington.
My Sister Jane Box now residing in Brook Street.
Reference to property in George Street, Grosvenor Square.
My Daughters Jane Box and Margaret Richards.
My Grand Daughter Jane Richards an Infant Daughter of Margaret Richards ...
(See also Voters Poll 1770s on Anc).
Will
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D383880
Added
[ ]th March 1776
Joseph Richard, Bachelor, married Margaret Box, Spinster.
[All signed & he signed Joseph Richards ]
Present (wits) Thos Trimlet ; Sarah Trimlet.
Marriage Indexed as 11 Mar 1776
Saint Dunstan And All Saints, Stepney: Rectory Square, Tower Hamlets, England
1770
Thomas Trimlet married Sarah Richards
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Yes, the more you look, the more possible connections you will find. It is possible James Smith came from London originally but cannot be sure. Shame he died just 2 years before the 1851 census, as if I even just had a county of birth that would help.
Signature comparison is good as it can help prove or disprove the same signature. Deffo not the same signatures with the 2 James Smith's though.
The Carney/Corney links are something to go on though.
I did find an Ann Carney baptised 26 September 1819 in Oxford St Clement, her father Andrew was a turner. Mother was Sarah. This was just a month after he witnessed the wedding of James Smith.
-
This other James Box, a Smith & Brazier with a Will Proved 1780, I can't see any Smith links there, after a very brief quick search.
----------
But if this were me I'd be looking at James Corney - Box - Smith, surnames link.
Hopefully, the 1819 James Corney & Jane Box, marriage mentioned and all their Baptisms (2 listed found easily, but could be more) might show up in the Census and who knows a Smith surname might show up again in the Census and/or present at their child marriages of any children, or not.
It is a shot to nothing, but the only Carney / Corney & Smith surname family relationship link so far and is worth a deeper look?
Those present at marriages are often related, but a few can be church officials, neighbours, work colleagues or friends from their religious meeting or chapel.
-
Andrew Carney was either a colleague, friend, neighbour or relative it seems. If they were friends, they may have moved up from London together, same as if relatives. Likely not a neighbour as he lived in one of the most easterly areas of Oxford in 1819 and James Smith in the centre of Oxford.
I did just find a James Box listed as an apprentice to John Carter a citizen and blacksmith in 1741, and he was the son of James Box of Hanover Square, also a blacksmith. Possibly the same James Box who was a citizen and smith and brazier who died in 1780.
Also just found a James Corney made freeman in City of London in 1822 as a gold and silver wire drawer.
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Also just found a James Corney made freeman in City of London in 1822 as a gold and silver wire drawer.
Are James Corney and James Carney, the same?
Thought a Goldsmith link was mentioned somewhere before?
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Also just found a James Corney made freeman in City of London in 1822 as a gold and silver wire drawer.
Are James Corney and James Carney, the same?
Thought a Goldsmith link was mentioned somewhere before?
I think the Andrew Carney (c1788-1845) I have my eye on was a gold plate setter, and at other times a turner. I estimate that James Carney/Corney was about 21 in 1822 when he was made a freeman.
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Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.
He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.
On the 1842 Marriage you will find one of those present (witness) signed as Mary Ann Carney.
1832
One possible suggestion for witness Mary Ann Carney (at 1842 Marriage) is Mary Ann Arle marrying James Carney 9th January 1832.
Present as witnesses at the 1832 Marriage by Banns (Banns Dec 1831 - Jan 1832) at St Anne Westminster, Middlesex, were:- John Horsey ; Jane "Corn*y" [ Jane Carney ]
* not an 'e' but probably meant to be.
Are you able to get the 1832 couple in the Census?
Looks like surname Horsey and the other Jane Corney [ Jane Carney ]
Mark
Suggested the above Jane Corney / Jane Carney might be Jane Box and a possible Smith surname link.
-----------
I believe the following 1853 marriage links to the above 1832 marriage.
25th September 1853, Parish of St Andrew, Holborn, London.
Henry Partridge, full, Bachelor, Jeweller, Par. of St Pancras, Thomas Partridge Jeweller.
To
Mary Ann Carney, Minor, Spinster, James Carney, Picture Frame Maker.
In the Presence of James Carney, Elizabeth Arle
2nd letter in Carney signature definitely an 'a'
A less established Mary Ann Carney signature, so not the one present at the 1842 marriage.
Henry Partridge was a Jeweller, so likely a Gold link too.
So the Smith surname link at Reply #53 still on as a possible?
St Brides, Fleet Street, London, England, 1st August 1819
James Corney married Jane Box, Spinster
In the Presence of:-
Daniel OKeefe
JAMES SMITH
-
Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.
He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.
On the 1842 Marriage you will find one of those present (witness) signed as Mary Ann Carney.
1832
One possible suggestion for witness Mary Ann Carney (at 1842 Marriage) is Mary Ann Arle marrying James Carney 9th January 1832.
Present as witnesses at the 1832 Marriage by Banns (Banns Dec 1831 - Jan 1832) at St Anne Westminster, Middlesex, were:- John Horsey ; Jane "Corn*y" [ Jane Carney ]
* not an 'e' but probably meant to be.
Are you able to get the 1832 couple in the Census?
Looks like surname Horsey and the other Jane Corney [ Jane Carney ]
Mark
Suggested the above Jane Corney / Jane Carney might be Jane Box and a possible Smith surname link.
-----------
I believe the following 1853 marriage links to the above 1832 marriage.
25th September 1853, Parish of St Andrew, Holborn, London.
Henry Partridge, full, Bachelor, Jeweller, Par. of St Pancras, Thomas Partridge Jeweller.
To
Mary Ann Carney, Minor, Spinster, James Carney, Picture Frame Maker.
In the Presence of James Carney, Elizabeth Arle
2nd letter in Carney signature definitely an 'a'
A less established Mary Ann Carney signature, so not the one present at the 1842 marriage.
Henry Partridge was a Jeweller, so likely a Gold link too.
So the Smith surname link at Reply #53 still on as a possible?
St Brides, Fleet Street, London, England, 1st August 1819
James Corney married Jane Box, Spinster
In the Presence of:-
Daniel OKeefe
JAMES SMITH
Thanks very much, this is looking promising.
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Baptisms not checked of James Box and Barbara, but on Anc and I think it mentioned he was a Weaver, possibly why I ruled out the 1780 James Box, Will.
St Brides, Fleet Street, London, England, 1st August 1819
James Corney married Jane Box, Spinster
In the Presence of:-
Daniel OKeefe
JAMES SMITH
27th May 1764 (Banns also online too)
St Bride, Fleet Street, City of London
"Box & Smith" [margin]
James Box Batch'r and Barbara Smith, Spins'r both of this Parish were Married in this church by Banns
In the Presence of Jane Davis ; Edward James
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General Information on St Bride
This page on Family Search has a boundary of St Bride and surrounding Parishes apparently c.1589, bit too early.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/St_Bride_Fleet_Street,_London_Genealogy
It mentions Farringdon without.
"St Bride Fleet Street belonged to Farringdon Ward Without and Castle Baynard Ward.
Also known as St Bridget Parish."
Description changed in 1848.
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Back to 1819 - 1820 on Anc
All London, England, Land Tax Records, 1692-1932
From a general James Smith search, one return was:-
James Smith
1820
Farringdon Without, City of London
Image of p.1 says this Land Tax book is:-
London, An Assessment made upon the several Inhabitants and Premises in the Precinct of St Andrew in the Ward of Farringdon Without.
James Smith £1. [on page 5]
I didn't check for any other James Smith, there are others for 1820 in other books, indexed by Anc under Farringdon Without (bit misleading), but another James Smith, 1820 was in different book title?
Seems the Ward covered more than one Parish?
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It is looking likely Andrew Carney (c1788-1845) was a relative of James Carney/Corney who wed Jane Box in 1819 at St Bride Fleet Street. I am off out soon but will be back later to have another look. I may have to compile a Carney family tree and label it as "Hypothetical relatives) as I have done this with a few other lines, and take notes of what you and I have found out about them.
My nan said she had some Irish blood on her Oxford born mother's side of the family, I have not found any yet but that mother of my gran was the great granddaughter of James Smith who knew Andrew Carney.
That other James Smith who witnesses the Carney/Box wedding may have been his father, or a cousin as we said.
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I just found a James Carney aged 57 in the 1851 census, born c1794 in St Margaret Westminster, living at 38 Fitton Street, St John The Evangelist, Westminster. He is said to be a carman, so that tallies with him being a coachman in the 1820s on his children's baptisms. Jane Carney his wife was aged 58 and born Suffolk, Ipswich.
This could well be the same James Carney who wed Jane Box in 1819.
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I think I found 2 children of James Carney and Joanna nee Box at St George Cathedral, Southwark in RC baptisms.
1825 Joanna Carney, daughter of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents James Boyle and Martina Maria Diprode.
1829 David Carney, son of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents Michael Carney and Martina Helena Coglan.
Seems the James Carney who wed Jane Box in 1819 had a relative called Michael.
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By 1842 (at St Giles in the Fields) Andrew Carney, Widower, Gold Size Maker, signature, has got shaky, possibly due to his age. Father James Carney, Cutter. Present as witnesses:- Mary Ann Carney ; Thos Bayless.
The Mary Ann Carney, witness signature 1842, Mary Ann (part) is similar to Mary Ann Arle in 1832, where you get Jane Corn*y as one witness, [Jane Corney].
Added
1826
Looks like the first marriage of Andrew Carney, might also be St Bride, City of London. Searching London, England.
[Indexed as St Bride, Fleet Street, London]
Added
On another thread you felt there might be a link to the Smith surname, through Hannah Hawkes, is that still a line of enquiry?
(Reply #54 of this thread has Andrew Carney & Hannah Hawkes, witness, sample signatures).
But as said, the 1st witness to James Smith's marriage:- Hannah Hawkes had an aunty who wed a Joseph Smith in Marsh Gibbon, Bucks. Food for thought but nothing concrete. Hannah may have been a friend of the bride or groom and her aunt wed a Smith, and Smith is a popular name.
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Hannah Hawkes was born in 1800 in Byfield, Northamptonshire I think, but her father was Jonas Hawkes born 1764 in Marsh Gibbon, Buckinghamshire to Thomas and Eliz Hawkes. Now, Jonas had a sister Elizabeth Hawkes born 1767, and she married in November 1786 in Marsh Gibbon to Joseph Smith. Not sure if that is anything to go on, or coincidence due to the common surname. The original marriage in 1786 will give the 2 witnesses but I have not been able to find the original or a full transcript of the yet.
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I think I found 2 children of James Carney and Joanna nee Box at St George Cathedral, Southwark in RC baptisms.
1825 Joanna Carney, daughter of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents James Boyle and Martina Maria Diprode.
1829 David Carney, son of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents Michael Carney and Martina Helena Coglan.
Seems the James Carney who wed Jane Box in 1819 had a relative called Michael.
Southwark was only separated by the River Thames from St Bride.
Never used this site but looks interesting?
"Layers of London is a map-based history website developed by the Institute of Historical Research."
https://www.layersoflondon.org/
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I think I found 2 children of James Carney and Joanna nee Box at St George Cathedral, Southwark in RC baptisms.
1825 Joanna Carney, daughter of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents James Boyle and Martina Maria Diprode.
1829 David Carney, son of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents Michael Carney and Martina Helena Coglan.
Seems the James Carney who wed Jane Box in 1819 had a relative called Michael.
From p.6
Reply # 53
Two earliest children? Didn't check for anymore.
1819, 27th Oct
Baptisms in the City of London Lying in Hospital, Middlesex
Child - James Corney
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Queens Arms Cot, Blackfriars Road,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Porter,
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Baptisms 1822
St John the Evangelist, Westminster, Middlesex.
Oct 13
Born May 25 1821
Child - William Son of
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Rochester Row,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Coachman
The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names by E. G. Withycombe, Reprinted Jan. 1946
Says:-
Jane (f.): the usual modern form of Joan(na) (see JOAN). It comes from OFr Jehane, and is not found much before the 16th C., Joan being the more usual medieval form of the name in England. ...
f. feminine
OFr Old French
So it does look like the Catholic Register has used the older historic form of the forename Jane.
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I think I found 2 children of James Carney and Joanna nee Box at St George Cathedral, Southwark in RC baptisms.
1825 Joanna Carney, daughter of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents James Boyle and Martina Maria Diprode.
1829 David Carney, son of James and Joanna (Nee Box) godparents Michael Carney and Martina Helena Coglan.
Seems the James Carney who wed Jane Box in 1819 had a relative called Michael.
From p.6
Reply # 53
Two earliest children? Didn't check for anymore.
1819, 27th Oct
Baptisms in the City of London Lying in Hospital, Middlesex
Child - James Corney
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Queens Arms Cot, Blackfriars Road,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Porter,
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Baptisms 1822
St John the Evangelist, Westminster, Middlesex.
Oct 13
Born May 25 1821
Child - William Son of
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Rochester Row,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Coachman
The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names by E. G. Withycombe, Reprinted Jan. 1946
Says:-
Jane (f.): the usual modern form of Joan(na) (see JOAN). It comes from OFr Jehane, and is not found much before the 16th C., Joan being the more usual medieval form of the name in England. ...
f. feminine
OFr Old French
So it does look like the Catholic Register has used the older historic form of the forename Jane.
I also just found a John Carney wed Jane Arle in 28 Feb 1825 in St Bride Fleet Street. Witnesses Thomas Richards and Mary Ann Arle.
Makes me wonder if John Carney was a relative of James Carney who wed Mary Ann Arle in January 1832.
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I also just found a John Carney wed Jane Arle in 28 Feb 1825 in St Bride Fleet Street. Witnesses Thomas Richards and Mary Ann Arle.
Makes me wonder if John Carney was a relative of James Carney who wed Mary Ann Arle in January 1832.
In my wider 19th Century Tree (Avatar), I have two Topham brothers, marrying two Hudson sisters.
Because of that, I've had to show a cross-over, like you get in an electrical wiring line diagram.
Next, a Topham child has married a Wilson and a child from that marriage, has married a child from one of the marriages of the Hudson sisters.
Keeping it in the family (blood family intermarriage) springs to mind.
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I also just found a John Carney wed Jane Arle in 28 Feb 1825 in St Bride Fleet Street. Witnesses Thomas Richards and Mary Ann Arle.
Makes me wonder if John Carney was a relative of James Carney who wed Mary Ann Arle in January 1832.
Richards discussed previously, linked to Box.
Thos Trimlet present at one 1776 Marriage - previously Thomas Trimlet has married a Richards in 1770.
See below ...
Not the same James Smith signature.
But your James Smith family may have had same named individuals in parallel lines, or even a father perhaps?
Or a coincidence, the harder one looks, the more alternative connections, sometimes can be made.
James and Barbara Box, had a Son John baptised and James Box, Occupation was given.
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There is another James Box, who left a Will, Proved 1780 PCC, who was a Smith and a Brazier of Brook Street, in the Parish of St George, Hanover Square, Middlesex.
Requesting to buried in the Burial Ground at Paddington.
My Sister Jane Box now residing in Brook Street.
Reference to property in George Street, Grosvenor Square.
My Daughters Jane Box and Margaret Richards.
My Grand Daughter Jane Richards an Infant Daughter of Margaret Richards ...
(See also Voters Poll 1770s on Anc).
Will
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D383880
Added
[ ]th March 1776
Joseph Richard, Bachelor, married Margaret Box, Spinster.
[All signed & he signed Joseph Richards ]
Present (wits) Thos Trimlet ; Sarah Trimlet.
Marriage Indexed as 11 Mar 1776
Saint Dunstan And All Saints, Stepney: Rectory Square, Tower Hamlets, England
1770
Thomas Trimlet married Sarah Richards
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Richards, Box, Carney, Smith. Could all be connected through marriage or friendship.
If John Carney wed in 1822 to Jane Arle, then I guess he was born about 1800, so maybe too young to be a son of Andrew who was born c1788.
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On another note I think I have solved the mystery as to which Elizabeth Suckling born 1763 or 1766 in Finchingfield, Essex was my ancestor who wed Samuel Stock in 1791 in Finchingfield.
Both Elizabeth's had younger sisters called Susan born 1768 (sister of 1763 one) and 1770 (sister of 1766 one).
Samuel Stock witnessed the marriage of Susannah Suckling to Robert Snesham in 1793 in Finchy. Other witness J Martin seemed to be a regular witness. Seemed my Eliz had a sister Susan. Susan died in 1815 in Castle Hedingham aged 47 so born 1768. That backs up the 1768 Susan Suckling, even though ages back then cannot always be relied upon.
After much sleuthing and researching the ever valuable marriage witnesses, I think the 1763 Eliz Suckling daughter of Thos and Jane (Nee Walls) is my ancestor as opposed to 1766 daughter of Francis Suckling and Mary Bassom. Cannot be totally certain but the balance of probabilities points to 1763.
Thomas Suckling wed Jane Wall in January 1760, witnesses William Doe and John Glasscock. Thos was said to be a blacksmith. When my ancestor Eliz Suckling wed Samuel Stock in 1791, the witnesses were John Turner and Susannah Glasscock. Seems Susannah Glasscock was born 1774 in Finchingfield daughter of John and Eliz Glasscock (Nee Willis) who wed in 1765 in Finchy. Witnesses John and Eliz Rogers.
Interestingly Thos Suckling occupied a property off John Rogers in 1775 in Finchy, as did John Turner and Hen/Thos Willis. And William Doe wed Ann Glasscock in October 1760, witnesses John Rogers and Sarah Hodgson.
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I have several brickwalls but the one that really defeats me is Jonas White who married my great great grandmother in 1836 by licence had two daughters born 1839 and 1840.He was a professor of music but that is all I know of him.
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I have several brickwalls but the one that really defeats me is Jonas White who married my great great grandmother in 1836 by licence had two daughters born 1839 and 1840.He was a professor of music but that is all I know of him.
Jonas White appeared at Derby 9th November 1836 before the Rev William Fisher B.A.
Jonas White of the Parish of Castle Donnington, in the County of Leicester and Diocese of Lincoln Organ Builder a Bachelor of the full age of 21.
Prayed for a Licence, intending to marry at Parish church of Aston upon Trent, Martha Minton of the Parish of Aston upon Trent, in the County of Derby in the Diocese of Lichfield & Coventry, Spinster of the full age of 21.
He swore that Martha Minton had her usual abode at Aston upon Trent for 15 days last past.
I can see a Licence Intention [application] on f m p
GRO Index
Two WHITE surname female Births are Registered Mother M.S. MINTON in the Registration District of Shardlow.
Registration District
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/shardlow.html
Sarah Ann White 1839.
Rosanna White 1840.
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There is this one
1851 2283 /558/6
Jonas White 32 yrs, Professor of Music
He is an unmarried visitor in the household of Ann Bulmer and family, Spfforth, Wetherby
His place of birth is transcribed as Newton but it might say ‘unknown’.
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1861 3202 /22/37
There is a Jonas David White, 46 yrs Organist b Thornton Bradford, Yorkshire
He is described as unmarried but it looks as ‘married’ is written above the occupation
1871 4558 /115/24
Jonas White 65 yrs widower, Musician, b Bradford
A pauper inmate
You have perhaps investigated these - no connection to Castle Donington though
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Thank you Heywood for your interest, I have wondered about the Jonas who is a visitor, but I can't verify. Other Jonas Whites in yorkshire I have ruled out at least temporarily, unless he was a bigamist. which from his mother in laws opinion of him in her will, is not impossible.
BushInn1746 where did you find the marriage licence information I looked on Find My Past with no luck.
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BushInn1746 where did you find the marriage licence information I looked on Find My Past with no luck.
Because you seemed confident you had his name correct "Jonas White"
I don't use my f m p app.
Just checked I can still get image again & noted stages.
But on awkward ones that won't return (that I think should), I start fresh from Google
1. search engine "Find My Past" (but do not click the sponsored one).
2. if signed in. On Find My Past click Menu lines (top right)
3. click Search
4. click Records by Category
5. click B M D & Parish
Here you should get the page where you enter search details
6. make sure Britain is selected
7. make sure the one beneath is on B M D & Parish
8. remove All subcategories by selecting 'Parish Marriages'
9. Enter his forname Jonas, but UNTICK because you have exact spelling of Jonas
(That is assuming the site has spelt it correct, but as you know they don't always)
10. enter White in surname (leave on exact)
11. enter year 1836 and
12. make year EXACT (remove -/+ 2 years)
13. click search
Three results.
One of the 3 results should be the Licence image. I have World / Full Membership (whatever they call it)
We have to click the image in England since it was changed
I find with the internet, I can find a document one day, then another day I can't find it ( I wonder if the last search has cleared).
Mark
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I did wonder about the censuses.
I think it might say ‘musician’ rather than married in 1861.
If the couple separated, he could have described himself as single but then when he was in the workhouse, ‘widower’ referred back to his marriage to Martha, rather than a bigamous one.
All supposition.
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I often try and follow up on new leads, even small ones but always remain pessimistic, and always be aware of the coincidences that happen. For example:-
My several times great grandfather James Gater, a maltster of Burford Oxfordshire, who wed in 1711 in Burford to Sarah Smallbones. In 1717 James was said to be a maltster of Burford who agreed to rent a property for £10 a year. Witnesses John Boulter and Humphrey Gillett. Now, James has children Joseph 1711, James 1714 (my direct ancestor), John 1717, William 1720 and Mary 1725. In 1720, Robert Wakefield of Rissington in Gloucestershire made malt at the house of James Gater in Burford, and James paid duties to the City of London. James’ son James Gater born 1714 became a baker and in 1744 in Burford he took on Thomas Wentworth for 7 years as an apprentice baker, whose family had links to Bedwyn in Wiltshire. A Francis Gater of Wellington Somerset had property in Wellington which involved a William Lentall of Burford in Oxfordshire. Coincidence? A James Gater was born 1668 in Uffculme in Devon, son of Francis and Mary. The James Gater born in 1679 in Lambourn, berkshire is a candidate as well. Burford in oxfordshire had a lot of trades people there so people likely moved there from other parts of England, as my Smallbones and Holder family in Burford have shown, they came from near Woburn in Bedfordshire originally.
Above is an example of a few leads, but always remaining with an open mind, especially when you get back that far. James Gater never left a will as far as I know when he died in 1737.
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By coincidence, I have just re-visited a brickwall and at last found the person I was seeking.
She was the second wife of my 5th Great Grandfather, Isaac Townend of West Yorkshire (hence she was not actually a blood ancestor of mine).
However it was her forename which had 'bugged' me!
Isaac married a Julip Barker - a widow - on 7 Oct 1794 at Birstall (a parish in West Yorks covering many smaller townships). Her name was Julip at marriage AND in Isaac's will.
As her forename was so unusual, I was curious about the names of her parents and siblings.
I discovered that a Julip Haigh had married a Joseph Barker -- so her maiden name was Haigh.
Eventually, after much re-visiting - I found her baptism in 1743 in Birstall - as 'Julep Hague'. (I don't know why it took me so long actually.)
She appears to have had 5 siblings - 3 with 'normal' forenames - Betty Haigh 1729, Richard Haigh 1730, Jennet Haigh 1733. All born Heckmondwike in Birstall Parish.
However there are 2 more with a father Thomas Haigh;
Neriah 1738
Milkah 1747
So Neriah, Julip and Milkah! What very unusual names.
There may be more lurking around who I haven't found, but I was pleased to have tracked Julip down.
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I've fallen back onto my Schumann family and using Ancestry DNA algorithms on trees and DNA matching to hopefully break it back a generation
I had seen a few names which I was convinced were part of my family and had kept them at arms length for 5 years but with the above I decided to add them and hopefully over the next few months they produce some solid matches - and if they dont I delete them and keep them once more at arms lengths
I am still looking for Blackstone in Windsor and Dorset but pre-1800 DNA matches are hard to interpret
My Simpsons are still stuck at 1857 proven levels - again a possibility but nothing in DNA to help
Always hopeful always looking
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Oh my goodness, David -- I don't even know what DNA algorithms means!
Sounds complicated and difficult, so I wish you luck.
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Oh my goodness, David -- I don't even know what DNA algorithms means!
Sounds complicated and difficult, so I wish you luck.
Just a fancy name for you doing Ancestrys homework for them
If you provide a Family Tree Ancestry will scour other trees looking for similar names and offer hints for you
These are then also analysed to see if there are matched names and suddenly you are a DNA match!
Ok a bit over the top but thats how I feel how half the names as matches are given
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I often try and follow up on new leads, even small ones but always remain pessimistic, and always be aware of the coincidences that happen. For example:-
My several times great grandfather James Gater, a maltster of Burford Oxfordshire, who wed in 1711 in Burford to Sarah Smallbones. In 1717 James was said to be a maltster of Burford who agreed to rent a property for £10 a year. Witnesses John Boulter and Humphrey Gillett. Now, James has children Joseph 1711, James 1714 (my direct ancestor), John 1717, William 1720 and Mary 1725. In 1720, Robert Wakefield of Rissington in Gloucestershire made malt at the house of James Gater in Burford, and James paid duties to the City of London. James’ son James Gater born 1714 became a baker and in 1744 in Burford he took on Thomas Wentworth for 7 years as an apprentice baker, whose family had links to Bedwyn in Wiltshire. A Francis Gater of Wellington Somerset had property in Wellington which involved a William Lentall of Burford in Oxfordshire. Coincidence? A James Gater was born 1668 in Uffculme in Devon, son of Francis and Mary. The James Gater born in 1679 in Lambourn, berkshire is a candidate as well. Burford in oxfordshire had a lot of trades people there so people likely moved there from other parts of England, as my Smallbones and Holder family in Burford have shown, they came from near Woburn in Bedfordshire originally.
Above is an example of a few leads, but always remaining with an open mind, especially when you get back that far. James Gater never left a will as far as I know when he died in 1737.
I did more digging and it does seem the James Gater of Uffculme in Devon in 1668 was someone else, the son of Francis Gater. That James seemed to marry to a Joan in Devon/Somerset in about 1695, and died in 1698. And my James Gater of Burford, Oxfordshire was another James Gater, the one born in Lambourn, Berkshire in 1679 is back on as a candidate then.
It is coincidence that Devon Francis Gater's landlord lived in Burford, Oxfordshire. William Lenthall was a local squire anyway.
Also the Uffculme James Gater born 1668 had a brother Nathaniel Gater, and they both died in 1698 and 1699 respectively in nearby Ashbrittle, Somerset along with their dad Francis in 1712. If it was the same James Gater who moved 80 odd miles to Burford, and he wed in 1711, why did he not name any of his sons Nathaniel or Francis? He named then Joseph, John, James and William.
Still a chance James Gater of Burford was part of the Devon Gater's extended family but unlikely. I know James Jnr had connections to Gloucester and London.
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DNA still depends on the accuracy of the other person's / persons' research (their ability to be able to look or find evidence, purchase or obtain the paperwork etc, Certificates, Wills) for their Tree/s.
Some Trees, are very good, but some Trees copy the errors of others, when checked against documents.
Some don't even have the Census images attached.
Keep your chins up coombs and everyone, I always maintain that some place, somewhere (unknown currently), a document, record or Headstone, has the answer, or a clue to it at least.
I'm still trying too, I've got a clearer scan of a witness signature and I'm no longer certain it says James Cockin, or B.T., Jane Cockin.
Halfway through the k, the writer has stopped and carried it on too.
Mark
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DNA still depends on the accuracy of the other person's / persons' research (their ability to be able to look or find evidence, purchase or obtain the paperwork etc, Certificates, Wills) for their Tree/s.
Some Trees, are very good, but some Trees copy the errors of others, when checked against documents.
Some don't even have the Census images attached.
Keep your chins up coombs and everyone, I always maintain that some place, somewhere (unknown currently), a document, record or Headstone, has the answer, or a clue to it at least.
I'm still trying too, I've got a clearer scan of a witness signature and I'm no longer certain it says James Cockin, or B.T., Jane Cockin.
Halfway through the k, the writer has stopped and carried it on too.
Mark
A trip from Devon to Oxfordshire was maybe a couple of days on a horse and cart, and was very easy compared to a 7 month journey to Australia.
One day you may get a breakthrough with your George Hood, who was over 100 years younger than my James Gater. I reckon James came from humble beginnings and became a maltster. Very common job for those living by rivers.
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As long as you have the minimal information on a highish cM DNA match then you have a reasonable chance of linking them into your tree,
I have many who have no trees, but luckily they have used their actual name and they have identifiable DNA Shared Matches.
It can be the luck of the draw.
The spanner in the works is the NPE and that may or may not result in success.
Endogomy or Pedigree Collapse can screw with results and cause sites like DNA Painter to give incorrect answers.
Conversely we have a 100+ cM match who has been a Brick Wall for 8 years, we know his first, middle and last name but there are over a hundred of them and limited Shared Matches that gives no clue, he also is not on any other site.
Always keep options open and test out any assumptions that are made.
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Had a quick look in the London Gazette for the earliest Gater that could be picked up by OCR scanning and found a Thomas Gater, late of the Parish of St Paul, Shadwell, Middlesex, Victualler, in 1761.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/
The Court were awaiting a Schedule of his Estate and Effects, for the benefit of his Creditors.
Not just in any old Prison.
In the King's Bench Prison, although I bet the conditions were not much better!
Mark
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Hi, I had a look further into that Thomas Gater and cannot find any obvious connection to my Gaters.
I found a Hayter family in Burford and they left will but no connection to James Gater. James Gater Jnr did occupy a house in Burford owned by Benjamin Jordan and Jame's wife witnessed the will of Rebecca Jordan in 1750.
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I did find a Thomas Gayfer of Wapping, London, married a Mary Townsend of Burford, Oxon in 1715, according to the Oxfordshire Marriage bond indexes. I since found he was a stone mason, and had a son James who was apprenticed in the late 1730s. And a son Thomas and John. Likely another coincidence though, even though my James Gater's friends were the Newman stone mason family of Burford/Fulbrook. I'd need some compelling evidence of any connection to James Gater (c1680-1737) before I added anyone of the same surname (outside his children) to my tree, ones who could be a brother, sister cousin etc.
Gater has variants such as Galer, Gayter, Gayfer, Gether etc. The surname is more common if you add in all the variants.