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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: beaglelady on Thursday 23 May 24 19:07 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone
I have a John Murray b. 1721 Ewes, Dumfriesshire. His parents are Lord Edward Murray and Lady Katherine Skeene. Edward's father is Sir John Murray 1st Marquess of Atholl, Knight of the Thistle of Fife. Ive found this info on several members trees on Ancestry. What im puzzled about is how to confirm if Edward is actually a Lord and his father's status of a Marquess of Atholl and Knight? Where can I see this info for myself please?
Many thanks
Elaine
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You will find plenty of information on this family by doing a simple "google Search"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murray,_1st_Marquess_of_Atholl
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If he is the John Murray who married Mary Boyles in Norfolk I would be sceptical of the Trees that name his Parents as the ones you have.
John/Mary bapt Wells -next-the Sea;
MARY 27 Dec 1753
ANN 30 Apr 1755
JOHN 8 Sep 1756
ELIZABETH 30 Oct 1757 buried 15 May 1762 age 4
VALENTINE 17 May 1759 buried 19 Oct 1761, infant
CHARLOTTE 22 Sep 1761
ELIZABETH 26 Apr 1763
JAMES VALENTINE and GEORGE WILLIAM 2 Jun 1764, Twins
ELLEN BENNETT 14 Jul 1765
ROBERT 15 Nov 1766
CHARLES 10 Sep 1768
On some bapts John is Dr John Murray
There is also a WILLIAM buried 1 Apr 1771 son of John/Mary
So I would say Trees that have John Murray and Ann BENNETT as his Parents may be more correct.
Trish :)
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Entry on Familysearch.Org has;
John Murray
Birth 29 Nov 1721 Unthank Farm, near Hawick, Roxburgshire
Bapt 24 Jan 1722 Ewes, Dumfriesshire
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If Ancestry says that John Murray, born 1721 in Ewes, Dumfries-shire, is the son of Edward Murray and Katherine Skeen, Ancestry is peddling rubbish (as is its wont).
According to the index to the original records at www.scotlandspeople.go.uk, John Murray, baptised 24 January 1721 (not 1722 as FamilySearch suggests) in Ewes, was the son of John Murray and his mother is not named. See attached screenshot.
Scotland's People (SP) has no records of the baptism of any children to Edward Murray and C/Katherine Ske*n*.
Forget about Ancestry and other commercial web sites and go for the original records at SP.
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There is a mention of Edward Murray, son of John Murray and Amelia Stanley, at http://www.thepeerage.com/p60911.htm#i609110 - however this is extracted from a genealogical compilation and not to be trusted 100% as it's not a primary source.
Edward Murray's wife is not named there.
SP has a record of the burial of an Edward Murray in Edinburgh Canongate on 17 November 1737.
According to The Peerage, Edward Murray's son John married Euphemia Ross or Boyd, widow of the Earl of Kilmarnock, but had no family, and died in 1748 in Edinburgh. SP has a record of the burial of a John Murray in Edinburgh Canongate on 21 October 1748.
Both listings in The Peerage have an icon which might imply that there is a gravestone, but I can't find anything online about such a stone or stones.
There may be additional information in the original burial records.
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Hi folks
Thanks for your replies. Ok there seems to be some doubt over John Murray so ive gone back to my Grt G/father Samuel Murray b.1747 Morton, Dumfriesshire. He married a Janet Johnstone in 1779. Geneanet does state Samuels parents as John Murray and Betti Johnson but obvs cant trust this info.
Samuel had a dau Helen Murray who married John Hastings. I know Im on the right track with these ancestors. Just cant seem to confirm if John Murray and Betti Johnson is correct info??
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You have got to stop believing anything you find on Ancestry, Geneanet and the like. By all means use the information there as pointers, but go for the primary records - those created at the time of the event by or for the people who were actually involved - at Scotland's People.
These record that Samuel Murray and Jan(n)et Johnston(e) had three children, all baptised in Lochmaben, Dumfries-shire between 1767 and 1770. See screenshot from the SP index. There could of course be several more whose baptism records have not survived. So either all these children were illegitimate, or they were married long before 1779. The original records will clarify that point. It seems that the marriage record, if it ever existed, has not survived. This is very common.
How did you get to Samuel M and Janet J? And where did you find that marriage date of 1779?
If Samuel M and Janet J were married before the birth of their son James in 1767, the Samuel born in 1747 is probably too young to be the right one. It was unusual for a young man to be able to support a wife and family at the age of 18 or 19.
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The marriage was on Geaneanet.
I got to Samuel and Janet by tracing from my Grt Grandmother Hannah Westgarth Scott nee Harris...parents Hugh Harris and Mary S Hastings....g/parents John Hastings and Helen Murray....father Samuel Murray and wife Janet Johnston.
Geneanet may not be 100% correct but the area of my ancestors abode is correct as they were living in or around Parish of Morton, Sanquhar.
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The marriage was on Geaneanet.
Yes, but what is the source of that information? It doesn't say, and it cites Ancestry family trees as a source.
Geneanet is not a primary source, any more than Ancestry trees are. It is a collection of trees compiled, in this case, over 200 years after the event.
It could be correct, but unless you follow up every event in detail, you cannot be sure.
I see that there are at least two trees on Geneanet featuring this Samuel Murray. One has him dying at age 102, and it has Janet Johnston, born 1753, having a son John in 1763, which is clearly nonsense. The other looks more sensible, but even that says they were married in 1779, but that there were three children born in 1767, 1769 and 1770.
I looked at the original of the 1767 baptism, which says quite clearly that John Murray, lawful son of Samuel Murray and Janet Johnston, was born on 12 January 1767. This quite specifically means that his parents were married before he was born. Therefore Samuel Murray and Janet Johnston were married before 12 January 1767, and most probably in 1765/1766. (It is of course possible that there were two couples with the same names, one married in 1765-ish and the other about 1779, but in that case both the Geneanet trees are wrong because they list the pre-1779 children as part of the family.)
It's very common for sloppy researchers to find that someone else has already done their tree, and just adopt it without bothering to check. So the fact that there are two, or ten, or a hundred, online trees saying the same thing is meaningless. It could be nine, or ninety-nine, people just copying and perpetuating errors.
I see that there is a death of Helen Murray or Hastings, mother's maiden name Johnston, in 1861 in Morton, Dumfries-shire, aged 71. Depending on when in 1861 she died, and assuming her age is accurate, that suggests that she was born in 1789/1790. That is consistent with her age in the 1841 census (when adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years), 1851, when she gave her age as 60, and 1861, when she said she was 70. But have you viewed the death certificate to confirm that she was indeed a daughter of Samuel M and Janet J, rather than of another Murray/Johns*on* couple? There are nine records of male Murrays marrying a female Johns*on* between 1760 and 1790, not including a Samuel.
I see that the first three children were baptised in Lochmaben, and Andrew and William in Dumfries. The Dumfries baptism records don't name their mother. Have you looked at the originals to see, for example, whether their father Samuel Murray's occupation is consistent with that in the earlier baptisms or in Helen's death certificate? If, for example, the two Dumfries baptisms say that Samuel was a farm labourer, and Helen's death certificate says that hers was a schoolmaster, it would be difficult to be sure that these were not two different Samuels.
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Hi
Im looking at Helen Hastings (Murray) d/cert which does name Samuel Murray and Janet Johnstone as parents. Im unable to decipher Samuel's occupation tho?
I will take a look at the first three children once ive bought more credits. Thank you.
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I think occ is Carter
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Ive looked at original b/cert for Andrew and William and occ of father is a Mason.
Helen's d/cert states Samuel occupation as a Carter. Although it shows Samuel Murray and Janet Johnston as parents.