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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: RW1 on Monday 20 May 24 12:25 BST (UK)
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Hello
My 3 x great-grandmother, Hannah Shipman (née Evans, c.1817 - 21 December 1886) fell down the stairs at either her, or her daughter's, house in High Street, Quinton, Birmingham, on 29 November 1886 and was taken to "the Queen's Hospital, and detained." - as reported in The Harborne Herald & Edgbaston Observer – Saturday 4 December 1886, p5.
She subsequently died on 21 December 1886 at "Workhouse, Western Road - USB", with the cause of death "Unknown". On the death certificate, there is no doctor's signature or details as in "Certified by", etc - the only signatures are her daughter's (as informant) and the registrar's (George Shread).
Does this sound a bit unusual?
Many thanks.
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It would have been quite normal for the time period. It was not until some time after this that a Doctors attendance and signature became compulsory.
Generally the Doctor was only summoned if there was some form of Insurance involved or membership of some Friendly Society which required it. (the Doctor had to be paid)
Often the cause of death was supplied or guessed by the family member registering the death - The only surprising thing about this incident is that it took place in a hospital and still there was no Doctor or "official" cause of Death.
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The only surprising thing about this incident is that it took place in a hospital and still there was no Doctor or "official" cause of Death.
Yes, Hannah's husband died the following year on 9 August 1887 at the same place - Work House, Western Road, USB. His cause of death is stated as "Chronic Bronchitis Pulmonary Congestion Certified by C Mitchell MRCS".
Thanks for your reply.
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Anthony MMM, a former registrar may shed some light onto exactly when a doctors attendance and signature became compulsory.
I think I have a death cert from about 1885 where it said "no medical attendant" and "un certified".
I know this is much earlier than 1886, but one ancestor died in the workhouse in 1851 and the death was registered by a fellow inmate.
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Thanks.
A quick check on some other certificates shows a trend.
Very early ones (1830s) simply list a cause, such as "Dropsy", "Inflammation in the Chest", etc. Around the 1840s the word "Certified" is added after the cause, but with no name of the doctor, eg (died 10 September 1848) "Age Certified". From the 1870s a fuller description is given, followed by the certifying doctor's name, eg (died 29 November 1875) "Chronic Bronchitis Pneumonia 3 days Certified by H Carter MRCS Eng".
There are one or two exceptions - the above is the general trend.
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Legislation changes and more were involved
https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/death-dying/dying-and-death/registeringdeath/ (https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/death-dying/dying-and-death/registeringdeath/)
S_L
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My 3xgreat grandfather's first wife died in Brighton in 1863 and the death cert said "Phthisis. Years, certified". The exact number of years was not stated but it must have been at least 2, and it was certified by a doctor but as said, their name was rarely given at that time.
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The relevant law at the time of this entry would be the B&D Act of 1874 which introduced the procedure for a medical practitioner to provide a "certificate stating to the best of his knowledge and belief the cause of death..". It also required the details of the certifying doctor to be recorded on the register entry, which wasn't previously the case even when a cause had been certified.
However - this new requirement to certify a cause only applied where the person had "been attended during his last illness by a registered medical practitioner" which many people wouldn't have been. So a death could still be "uncertified" and the cause be recorded as whatever the informant gave, or as in this case none at all.
So even though the death took place in the workhouse, it suggests that he had not seen a doctor in his time there (which may have been very brief).
Deaths can (or could a few years ago when I was working as a registrar) still be uncertified in some rare cases and the cause could be recorded as unknown (with the agreement of the coroner).
How the changes now being introduced by the introduction of a new Medical Examiner role in the process, apart from apparently causing quite a few delays, I don't know.
As a doctor once told me when I rang him about a cause of death certificate he had produced "well working out any cause of death for some patients is about half from their medical history and the other half pure guesswork anyway".
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Thanks Antony MMM.
Great to have that information.
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This puts me in mind of my own grandmother, who went into hospital with a broken arm after a fall and died while there from an unrelated infection. The fall might have put your ancestor in the hospital but later died from something that wasn't connected, hence the 'unknown'. I suppose this is the more blunt way of saying some of the previous causes, such as "called by God"...
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I have a death cerificate for my great great grandfather who died in Norfolk in December 1877.
The death was registered by the coroner after an inquest. Cause of death. Died suddenly of natural causes.
His wife, who he had known since childhood, died a few weeks earlier of typhoid.
There was food in the house when he died, he had a tied home and a job.
His very young children had been taken into the workhouse and it was Christmas.
I think he died of a broken heart.
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Yes. I agree. It.s enough to break anyone.s heart.
And people died of stress and sorrow though it was often given some other name.
But he may have had underlying heart disease or some infection .
And Christmas time the authorities wouldn't have been too bothered about another pauper unless it was a murder case.
But we care.