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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Isabel Griggs on Monday 20 May 24 01:42 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am trying to find information on my husband's great grandmother, Elizabeth Alice Edwards. This is the information I have, so far!
Marriage (Registration No 1891002960):
Henry Edward Griggs place of birth Dover, occupation Cook/Bachelor, usual address Napier, Parents Jane Griggs nee Bailey and Geoffry Griggs, married on the 4th of Nov 1891 in Napier Cathedral, Elizabeth Alice Edwards place of birth London, spinster, parents George Edwards & Jane Edwards nee Compton.
Death (1939024965):
Elizabeth Alice Griggs died on the 28th of March 1939, Hospital Palmerston North from 235 Ruahine St, Palmerston North, NZ. Cause of death Coronary Thrombosis, Coronary Sclerosis. Certifying doctor A G Stanley. Last seen alive by doctor 28th March 1939. Age at death 71yrs. Place of birth London, England. Number of years in NZ-56yrs. Buried on the 31st of March 1939, Kelvin Grove Cemetery, NZ. Daughter age 45yrs, sons 43yrs, 42yrs, 40yrs & 33yrs. Mother Jane Edwards nee Compton. Father George Edwards. Spouse Henry Edward Griggs. Age when married 23yrs, Place Napier, NZ.
Obituary of Mrs. Elizabeth Griggs:
The death occurred recently at her home in Ruahine Street of Mrs. Elizabeth Alice Griggs aged 71, and the interment took place on March 31 at Kelvin Grove Cemetery.
Born in London, the late Mrs. Griggs came to New Zealand on the ship 'Westland' in 1883 with her parents, the late Mr. & Mrs. G Edwards (not sure if this is correct) and they settled at Napier, where she was married in 1890 to Mr. Henry E Griggs after residing for a period in Wellington, Mr. & Mrs. Griggs took up farming in the Pahiatua and Eketahuna districts, where they broke in a virgin block of land and in 1920, they came to Palmerston North, where they have since resided.
Mrs. Griggs was of a retiring disposition devoted to her home and family. She was survived by her husband, four sons, Messer's E. Griggs (Tauranga), F. Griggs (Wanganui) H. Griggs (Kairangi, Waikato) B. Griggs (Auckland) and a daughter, Mrs. A. C. Richardson (Palmerson North) There are also seven Grandchildren.
Family Folklore... Elizabeth came out to NZ at the age of 16 yrs. She was with her sister Lousia Annie who went on to Australia. It is said that another sister Emma went to Canada (no prove).
I have found her sister Lousia and indeed came to Australia and buried here.
The birth date I was given for Elizabeth 17 May 1866 London. Lousia Annie 7 Nov 1863 London.
I was also given a birth date for their mother Jane Campton 26 May 1837 no place. Their father I was told was born in Windsor, England. No Date.
The father George Edwards was supposed to be a "Gentleman's Gentleman"? and spoke various languages? The story goes that he left the family and Jane had to look after all the children by herself. The three eldest girls went overseas leaving the mother with several younger children.
I was also told that Elizabeth's parents lived at 39 Norfolk sq, Hyde Park, London.?
Most of the above, I take with a grain of salt. Some, I have proven.
Where it states in the Obituary "the late Mrs. Griggs came to New Zealand on the ship 'Westland' in 1883 with her parents, the late Mr. & Mrs. G Edwards and they settled at Napier". She may have come on the "Westland", but I do not believe that her parents came over here. My husband John's father (Desmond) was born in 1926 and remembered his grandparents. He never heard that Elizabeth's parents were on the ship. His story and other sons stated that it was only the girls.
I cannot find any document on these parents. Any help pointing me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Isabel
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Do Louisa Annie’s details give the same parents and place of birth?
Have you found her birth in England?
In fact…please provide all the details you have for Louisa Annie
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Just to clarify. Is the story that Louisa was on board the ship to NZ and then she went on to Australia later?
So if they changed their names they might be any one of the pairs of presumably sisters on the list of passengers. I certainly don’t see any Edwards on this arrival. Was there another sailing of the Westland in a different year?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP18831102.2.10?query=samuel
Single women from that sailing of the Westland were destined for the Hawkes Bay so that fits at least.
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Who are the witnesses for the marriage certificate, 1891?
"I have found her sister Lousia and indeed came to Australia and buried here."
What have you found for Louisa?....marriage?...death?....where?....when?.
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Fascinating tangle of information and family folklore
Could this death relate to father George and wife Jane?? Probably too old :-\ http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t6p/
Deleted - Looks like this husband Thomas not George
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Wow! Thank you all for responding.
mckha-489 ... to answer your questions on Lousia Annie Edwards... This is what I have!
1) I know that Lousia Annie is Elizabeth's sister. In 1894 Elizabeth and Henry E Griggs had a girl. Her name was Lousia Alice Griggs she was born in NZ. I have a photo of Lousia Annie Edwards with this little girl, she would have been about 3yrs. We believe that Lousia Annie went over from Australia to visit her sister and children. If the photo is anything to go by it would have been about 1896/7. I have not found a travel record from Aussie to NZ for Lousie Annie yet.
2) I have not long ago found this record, which looks positive. I see that the date in J-A-S 1862. Not the date the family gave me out of the family bible 🤔 I will send for it. As I mentioned, I take the families account with a grain of salt.
Birth: Possible
Name: Louisa Annie Edwards
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1862
Registration District: Kensington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 105
3) Lousia Annie Edwards never married. I found her living at 63 Brown Street, Paddington Municipality, Sydney, Australia.
She is buried in the Church of England Cemetery, Rookwood, Sydney. Section: 14
Grave: 6129
Public Trustee paid for funeral
Buried alone
No Headstone
Place of death: Paddington
Dote of interment: 12th May 1942
Age of deceased: 81yrs
My hubby, John and I found her grave in Rookwood and sat and had a cup of tea with her and left flowers. 😊
Kind regards,
Isabel
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4) I found this in the 1881 England Census, I won't post the whole document.
1881 England Census
Name: Louisa A. Edwards
Age:16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Kensington, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:124 Lad Gro Rd
Education: Employment status:
.
Occupation: Domestic Serv
Registration District: Kensington
Sub-registration District: Kensington Town
ED, institution, or vessel:47
5)Australian Electoral Roll:
1930 & 1936 was living at 36 Brown St, Paddington-Home Duties.
6) I requested death cert on the 26th of July 09 received death cert on the 29th of July 09 from Laurie
NSW DEATH REGISTRATION TRANSCRIPTION REF NO: 1942/11939
Name: Louise Annie Edwards
Date of Death: 10th May 1942
Place: 63 Brown Street, Paddington Municipality
Rank or profession: No entry
Sex & Age: Female, 83 years
Cause of Death: Senility (heart disease)
Length of Illness: Inquest unnecessary
Medical Attendant: ET Oram SM (city coroner)
Date Last seen: 11th Mar 1942
Father: No entry
Occupation: No entry
Mother: No entry
Informant: JW Travis, sergeant 3/C Police Station, Darlinghurst, Sydney
Registration: L Thompson, 25th May 1942, Paddington
Date of Burial: 12th May 1942
Place of Burial: Church of England Cemetery, Rookwood
Undertaker: EE Murray employed by Wood Coffill Limited
Minister & Religion: RO Todd, Church of England
Witnesses: O Tolhurst and W Hawkings
Place of Birth: London, England
Time in Aust Colonies: About 50 years in Australia
Place of Marriage: Not married
Age at Marriage: No entry
Name of Spouse: No entry
Children of Marriage: No entry
Other Details: None stated
Transcribed by Laurence Turtle
PO Box 144 Kurrajong 2758
Phone: (02) 4573 1559 Fax: (02) 4573 0536
Web Site: http://home.iprimus.com.au/lturtle/
Email: lturtle@iprimus.com.au
7)Wrote to the Public Trustee in Sydney for "Will" information address:
Attention Records
NSW Trustee & Guardians
GPO Box 7
Sydney 2001
Dear Ms Griggs
Wrote to the Public Trustee in Sydney for "Will" information address:
Attention Records
NSW Trustee & Guardians
GPO Box 7
Sydney 2001
I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 30th July 2009.
Please be advised that due to the length of time since the death of your late great grandaunt it will be necessary for this Office to conduct manual searches of our records Department.
I will contact you again when results of searches are to hand.
Yours sincerely
D Stevens
From the NSW TRUSTEE AND GUARDIAN. received on the 05 Aug 09.
Estate of Louisa Annie Edwards: -Will details attached in Scrapebook:
In the Supreme Court of NSW, Probate Jurisdiction.
Affidavit of death: -Deponent, Emily Alice Wilomer, of 21 Jiges St. Potts Point, NSW, occupation: retired sworn on the 19th of May 1942.
Affidavit of John Charles Watt, 19 O'Connell Street, Sydney, occupation: public servant- sworn on the 18th day of May 1942.
Particulars of property:
Commonwealth Saving Bank, Sydney.
A/c No. G386373Balance: 121pounds, 0 shillings and 7 pence. interest 2 pounds, 5 shillings and 1 pence.
Jewlery valued at 3 shillings
Cash 2 pounds and 10 shillings and 7 pence-Total 125 pounds and 19 shillings and 3 pence.
Lousia Annie Edwards worked here: SCOTTISH HOSPITAL - Brown Street, Paddington, originally known as The Terraces and was built in the 1840s by Judge Kinchella - a notable feature is the tropical forest in the grounds aided by having been laid out in a gully. It was acquired by Sir Alexander MacCormick (Kilmory, Point Piper) an eminent surgeon and academic who gave it in 1926 with an endowment of 26,000 pounds to the Presbyterian Church in memory of his son who was killed in WWI.
Yes, the story goes that both girls came on the ship. Lousia supposedly was working for a family that had children and they lived in Australia. She went with them. Elizabeth Alice was working for a family as a lady's maid and went to NZ
I don't think that they changed their names.
Isabel
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Hello wivenhoe,
To answer your question- I put the marriage cert information on my message at the top. That was all the information on the certificate.
Hello Kay99,
I agree, you wrote- Fascinating tangle of information and family folklore. Oh, I have more tales for the Griggs side of the family. When I produced evidence, b.m.d. certificates, workhouse information, census. I was told I had it all wrong from one Auntie as it did not fit with the story, she had 🤣
Once again, to you all. I appreciate you replying and giving me links and other ideas.
One thing I don't know how to reply to each message separately. Sorry. I hope that you don't think me rude for not replying individually.
Isabel
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Based on the age of Louisa when she died I think she would be born about 1859 and I found this family in 1861 that might be worth looking at - Living at Tottenham Place St Pancras
Jane Edwards 35 Head married House Servant b Englefield Green, Surrey
Emma Jane Edwards 8 Daughter b Marylebone
Louisa Anne Edwards 5 months Daughter b St Pancras
Have to go out now
Kay
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Thanks Kay,
I will have a look.
Isabel
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2) I have not long ago found this record, which looks positive. I see that the date in J-A-S 1862. Not the date the family gave me out of the family bible 🤔 I will send for it. As I mentioned, I take the families account with a grain of salt.
Birth: Possible
Name: Louisa Annie Edwards
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1862
Registration District: Kensington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 105
From the GRO you can see the mother’s maiden name here is WOOLGAR
EDWARDS, LOUISA ANNIE WOOLGAR
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 105
I had a look at that birth last night and am fairly confident the mother is Fanny Dauncey Woolgar and father is Hugh George Edwards and they and their family can be accounted for well after the relevant dates.
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Gro.Gov Records
Emma Jane Edwards 1853 Marylebone mother maiden name Smythe
Louisa Annie Edwards 1860 Pancras mother maiden name Smythe
Rosie
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The birth date I was given for Elizabeth 17 May 1866 London. Lousia Annie 7 Nov 1863 London.
There are no registered births that match your information, nor any EDWARDS/COMPTON/CAMPTON births.
39 Norfolk sq, Hyde Park, London.?
Not there on any census 1861 -1891
I think you need to start with finding out where this information has come from, I am sure someone didn't just pull it out of the air.
Debra :)
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Hi,
I wonder what was there back then? 39 Norfolk sq, Hyde Park, London.
Thanks for replying,
Isabel
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Isabel
Can you please give attention to my questions at my reply #3.
This information will assist people on this forum to help you with your research.
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Elizabeth came out to NZ at the age of 16 yrs. She was with her sister Lousia Annie who went on to Australia.
She was on her own and aged 18.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P7C-9NX
Debra :)
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Isabel
Can you please give attention to my questions at my reply #3.
This information will assist people on this forum to help you with your research.
Hi, I did answer your question #7
There wasn't any witness on the certificate.
Isabel
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I think these people were living at 39, Norfolk Square, Paddington, Kensington in 1881
Martha H Channell? Head 64 Widow of a judge Hammersmith, Middlesex
Eliza Bloomfield Servant 30 Ladys maid Ringwood, Hampshire
Elizabeth Riches Servant 33 Cook Norwich, Norfolk
Martha J Spinney Servant 26 Parlour maid Blandford, Dorset
Ellen Brighten Servant 17 House maid Stepney, Middlesex
In 1871 Martha H Channel was staying with her husband (William Channell -Baron of the Exchequer) at the Albion Hotel in Brighton
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Outside possibility for Louisa (who ended up in Australia) in the NZ passengers lists? :-\
SS Arawa, departed London 7 August 1890
Third Class
Miss L Edwards
Occupation None
Age 30
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6SGQ-M88
Hawkes Bay Herald, 24 Sep 1890
Wellington, Tuesday.
The Arawa, from London, arrived at 4 p.m. to-day....
The Arawa's passengers for Napier are—
Saloon, Lady Whitmore, Mrs Dixon, and Mr Wilson : steerage, Miss Edwards.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBH18900924.2.3.5
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An address connection of sorts:
Circa 1889 to 1891, a well-known Australian family were living at 39 Norfolk Square, Paddington.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Campbell_Praed
1891 census - Mr Praed, children, and servants residing at 39 Norfolk Square.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QQ78-JW2
The Praed family were in Northants in the 1881 census.
Who knows...perhaps Elizabeth A Edwards was a servant with this family before she emigrated.
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Isabel
Can you please give attention to my questions at my reply #3.
This information will assist people on this forum to help you with your research.
Hi, I did answer your question #7
There wasn't any witness on the certificate.
Isabel
That’s weird. Is it a typed official certificate rather than a printout of the actual entry?
(We always recommend buying the print out when you can. It has the most info and is marginally cheaper)
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Elizabeth came out to NZ at the age of 16 yrs. She was with her sister Lousia Annie who went on to Australia.
She was on her own and aged 18.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P7C-9NX
Debra :)
Well done!
Thinking that perhaps one of the other single women from Middlesex might have been a friend - I started looking for Matilda BURGELL age 28. But I cannot find a single thing. Am I reading her name correctly?
Added to say found her as Matilda Girling who married Henry Burgell, but where is she in 1881?
Similarly not seeing a good candidate for Florence Pritchard who was the same age as Elizabeth?
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Outside possibility for Louisa (who ended up in Australia) in the NZ passengers lists? :-\
SS Arawa, departed London 7 August 1890
Third Class
Miss L Edwards
Occupation None
Age 30
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6SGQ-M88
Hawkes Bay Herald, 24 Sep 1890
Wellington, Tuesday.
The Arawa, from London, arrived at 4 p.m. to-day....
The Arawa's passengers for Napier are—
Saloon, Lady Whitmore, Mrs Dixon, and Mr Wilson : steerage, Miss Edwards.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBH18900924.2.3.5
Thank you, this could well be Elizabeth Alice Edwards.
Isabel
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Elizabeth came out to NZ at the age of 16 yrs. She was with her sister Lousia Annie who went on to Australia.
She was on her own and aged 18.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P7C-9NX
Debra :)
Well done!
Thinking that perhaps one of the other single women from Middlesex might have been a friend - I started looking for Matilda BURGELL age 28. But I cannot find a single thing. Am I reading her name correctly?
Added to say found her as Matilda Girling who married Henry Burgell, but where is she in 1881?
Similarly not seeing a good candidate for Florence Pritchard who was the same age as Elizabeth?
Thank you for the information. I really appreciate all your help. I don't appear to be able to open the link, I will try again later.
Isabel
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Isabel
Can you please give attention to my questions at my reply #3.
This information will assist people on this forum to help you with your research.
Hi, I did answer your question #7
There wasn't any witness on the certificate.
Isabel
That’s weird. Is it a typed official certificate rather than a printout of the actual entry?
(We always recommend buying the printout when you can. It has the most info and is marginally cheaper)
I think it was the printout. I will look it out. I have it filed away.
Thank you
Isabel
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Elizabeth came out to NZ at the age of 16 yrs. She was with her sister Lousia Annie who went on to Australia.
She was on her own and aged 18.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P7C-9NX
Debra :)
Well done!
Thinking that perhaps one of the other single women from Middlesex might have been a friend - I started looking for Matilda BURGELL age 28. But I cannot find a single thing. Am I reading her name correctly?
Added to say found her as Matilda Girling who married Henry Burgell, but where is she in 1881?
Similarly not seeing a good candidate for Florence Pritchard who was the same age as Elizabeth?
I don't appear to be able to open the link. I will try again later. Much appreciated your help. This lady has been a mystery for a while now.
Isabel
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Elizabeth came out to NZ at the age of 16 yrs. She was with her sister Lousia Annie who went on to Australia.
She was on her own and aged 18.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P7C-9NX
Debra :)
Thank you for the information. I really appreciate all your help. I don't appear to be able to open the link, I will try again later.
Isabel
Have you registered an account on family search? It’s free. But you do have to register.
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Elizabeth came out to NZ at the age of 16 yrs. She was with her sister Lousia Annie who went on to Australia.
She was on her own and aged 18.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6P7C-9NX
Debra :)
Thank you for the information. I really appreciate all your help. I don't appear to be able to open the link, I will try again later.
Isabel
Have you registered an account on family search? It’s free. But you do have to register.
Yes I have, my internet is a bit slow.
Thanks,
Isabel
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The Griggs appear on Wellington electoral rolls in the 1890's
For 1896 we have
Griggs, Henery Edward, Thompson street, Seaman's electoral right No. 1A issued
Griggs, Elizabeth Alice, Thompson street, married woman, residential
and in this year also
Edwards, Louisa, Thompson street, spinster, residential
This is about the time of the photo of Louisa Edwards and her niece Lousia Alice.
Henry Griggs is in the 1896-7 PO Directory at Thompson Street, not a vast number of other people listed there.
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Wow! Thank you so much. Yes, that will date the photo.
Really appreciate your help 🙏
Isabel
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Marriage
Elizabeth Alice Edwards place of birth London, spinster, parents George Edwards & Jane Edwards nee Compton.
The birth date I was given for Elizabeth 17 May 1866 London. Lousia Annie 7 Nov 1863 London.
I cannot find any document on these parents.
Hi there
I think that perhaps some of the information you have about Elizabeth Edwards and her family is true (sort of!) and some of it isn't. Most particularly the info she herself gave on her marriage record.
Obviously there is no sign of a marriage between a George Edwards and a Jane Compton, or (now that we have the maiden names from the GRO site) any birth registrations of children.
Possibly this is because Elizabeth didn't know very much about her parents, especially her father, and got some things wrong. There may be a deeper reason though.
I have been trying to hunt down an Elizabeth and a Louisa Edwards who appear in St Pancras workhouse/school records. With mixed success! These two were possibly related, i.e. sisters, but are not always together. To confuse things, there is more than one Louisa in the records, and possibly more than one Elizabeth too, so my brain has become a bit addled by it all!
So here they are in a St Pancras workhouse school record (Most of the London records on FamilySearch are no longer available to us, but a few remain)
Admitted 13 June 1873
Louisa Edwards, age 12 yrs
Elizabeth Edwards, age 10 yrs
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3NG-Q62V
They were both discharged on the 19th June
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3NG-QDLZ
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Gro.Gov Records
Emma Jane Edwards 1853 Marylebone mother maiden name Smythe
Louisa Annie Edwards 1860 Pancras mother maiden name Smythe
I am now thinking that the workhouse/school records could relate to the births flagged up earlier by Rosie. You have told us that there may have been an older sister Emma.
So here are the full details from GRO
EDWARDS, EMMA JANE
Mother's Maiden Surname: SMYTHE
GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 314
EDWARDS, LOUISA ANNIE
Mother's Maiden Surname: SMYTHE
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 114
The mother of these two girls was Jane.
It looks like Jane and her daughter Emma were in St. Pancras workhouse in 1860. Records are on ancestry.
There were two successive admissions in October.
Jane Edwards 35
Emma Edwards 7
On the first admission Jane is described as Servant. On the second she is a Tramp.
In the workhouse Jane gave birth to a girl on 7 November 1860. This is the same birthday you have for your Louisa Annie, though the year is different.
Emma was sent to the school at Anerley on 19 November.
Jane (and baby as well, I guess) were discharged on 18 March (1861)
Meanwhile, curiously, there is a baptism (on ancestry) that gives the daughter's name as Jane.
5 December 1860 at St. Pancras, one of a number of workhouse baptisms that day
Jane
Parents Edward + Jane Edwards
Father a Servant
Abode Workhouse
Born 7 Nov 1860
One of the other workhouse baptisms that day was Rebecca, daughter of John + Mary Eliza Webb. Also born 7 November.
There is a birth reg for her as Rebecca Eliza Webb in Pancras, Dec 1860, 1b 114. That is the same GRO ref as for Louisa Annie Edwards. There is no birth reg of a Jane Edwards at that time in Pancras.
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In the 1861 census Jane, Emma and Louisa are at Tottenham Place, St. Pancras
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M756-B15
Jane Edwards is 35, Married, a House Servant, born Surrey Englefield Green.
Emma Jane is 8, born Middlesex St Marylebone
Louisa Anne is 5 months old, born Middlesex St Pancras
Now things get really murky.
In 1871 Jane and her family are still in St Pancras. Recorded as Edward.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBDC-NF6
Emma is not there, and there is another daughter. But she is not called Elizabeth!
Jane Edward is 46, now a widow, and a Hawker. She has lost an eye. Not sure what the place of birth says, but it ends with the word Green!
Louisa is 10.
The other daughter appears to be Fanny E Edward, 8, born St. Pancras.
There seemed to be a good candidate registered in Sep 1863, Pancras.
Edward, Fanny Elize. This is from the retype of the original GRO index
The new index has her with a slightly different middle name (possibly mistranscribed from the cert)
EDWARDS, FANNY ELSIE
Mother's Maiden Surname: SMITH
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 144
Looks good. But no, she sadly appears to have died, with her death being registered in the same quarter.
EDWARDS, FANNY ELISE
Age at Death (in years): 0
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in ST PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 115
There is a burial indexed on Deceased Online of a Fanny Eliza Edwards, 13 September 1863. Authority Camden.
So who is the "Fanny E" Edward in 1871? Where did she spring from? Is she Elizabeth in disguise, and, if so, who was she really?
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The father George Edwards was supposed to be a "Gentleman's Gentleman"? and spoke various languages? The story goes that he left the family and Jane had to look after all the children by herself.
There is a rough settlement exam of Jane Edwards, age 33, in St Pancras in early 1861.
Sometimes these things can be a bit of a damp squib, but this one is crazy good ;D
The gist of it -
Husband absent.
Says she was wed to Edward Edwards as Smithe spinster at Baden Baden, Germany, 3 March 1848.
2 children, Emma Jane, 6 years, and Louisa Anne, 3 months.
Husband left her in August 1860
He is a Servant. No relations. He was the illegitimate son of Lord Beresford and born in Waterford, Ireland about 45 years ago.
I am the daughter of John + Anne Smithe, both deceased. Father was a (small?) Farmer
I have an elder sister, Mrs Elizabeth Farrer (?), living at Sleaford, Lincolnshire, who could give more information
I was born (in?) Englefield Green, near Windsor.
There are certainly some similarities there to the family tales, even Windsor gets a mention!
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Hi again
I do think it could be worth getting that birth record of Louisa Annie in Dec 1860, in Pancras.
Especially since you can now get an instant digital image to download for just £2.50 from the GRO. No waiting at all to see if she was indeed born on 7 November in the St Pancras workhouse.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
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Looks like a coincidence
Fanny Elise Edward
Baptism 28 Jun 1863 Holy Trinity, Haverstock Hill, Camden, England
Father Aaron Edward, bricklayer
Mother Susannah Edward
Address: 19 Grafton St
There's a Fanny Edwards b c1863 discharged from Leavesden School in 1876 in the poor law records. Will dig about a bit more
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Oh well found Mabel.
It does sound like good news for us. The plot dilutes!
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I have a lot to learn from how Jonw65 navigates those poor law records!
It’s looking very very interesting now!
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Hi mckha
Well I had to navigate them elsewhere today, and I thought I had mucked up the exam link :-\
So this might work, or it might not
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2651/images/31451_214822-00030
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Hi mckha
Well I had to navigate them elsewhere today, and I thought I had mucked up the exam link :-\
So this might work, or it might not
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2651/images/31451_214822-00030
Yes that worked, thank you :)
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When I originally found the Jane Edwards and family in 1861 and posted it I also checked the birth the Louisa Annie
It lists her as born on 7 Nov 1860 at St Pancras Workhouse - father Edward Edwards mother Jane Edwards formerly Smythe Domestic Servant - registered by J Edwards St Pancras Workhouse
Kay
Added - Amazing research jonw65
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When I originally found the Jane Edwards and family in 1861 and posted it I also checked the birth the Louisa Annie
It lists her as born on 7 Nov 1860 at St Pancras Workhouse - father Edward Edwards mother Jane Edwards formerly Smythe Domestic Servant - registered by J Edwards St Pancras Workhouse
Kay
Thank you, I will get you certificates and see what they have to say 😊
Isabel
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In 1861 this might be the sister Elizabeth Farrar that was referred in the settlement exam of Jane Edwards
Livnng at Old Sleaford Lincolnshire
Elizabeth Farrow Widow Female 46 1815 Laundress Egham? Surrey
Harriet Farrow Daughter 16 1845 Laundress Sleaford, Lincolnshire
William Morris Lodger 21 1840 Typer graphical printer Cambridgeshire
Added - In 1851 husband Louis P(arker) Farrow b 1806 Boston Lincolnshire
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From Freecen:
Baptisms - St John the Baptist, Egham
6 Feb 1814 - Elizabeth Smith
22 Jun 1823 - Jane Smith
Parents John & Ann Smith - Labourer
Abode - Egham
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In 1861 this might be the sister Elizabeth Farrar that was referred in the settlement exam of Jane Edwards
Livnng at Old Sleaford Lincolnshire
Elizabeth Farrow Widow Female 46 1815 Laundress Egham? Surrey
Harriet Farrow Daughter 16 1845 Laundress Sleaford, Lincolnshire
William Morris Lodger 21 1840 Typer graphical printer Cambridgeshire
Added - In 1851 husband Louis P(arker) Farrow b 1806 Boston Lincolnshire
Thank you so much. I appreciate all the help I have been given.
Just waiting to be able to buy those certificates, I have the grandbabies at the moment 🫠
Isabel
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From Freecen:
Baptisms - St John the Baptist, Egham
6 Feb 1814 - Elizabeth Smith
22 Jun 1823 - Jane Smith
Parents John & Ann Smith - Labourer
Abode - Egham
Wow! You guys are amazing, thank you so much 🙏
Isabel
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Hi again
I do think it could be worth getting that birth record of Louisa Annie in Dec 1860, in Pancras.
Especially since you can now get an instant digital image to download for just £2.50 from the GRO. No waiting at all to see if she was indeed born on 7 November in the St Pancras workhouse.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
jonw, I have ordered, Emma Jane, Louise Annie and Fanny Elise's birth record.
I will let you know when I receive them.
Isabel
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Well done Jon you have been busy excellent detective work :)
Rosie
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Hi again
I do think it could be worth getting that birth record of Louisa Annie in Dec 1860, in Pancras.
Especially since you can now get an instant digital image to download for just £2.50 from the GRO. No waiting at all to see if she was indeed born on 7 November in the St Pancras workhouse.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
jonw, I have ordered, Emma Jane, Louise Annie and Fanny Elise's birth record.
I will let you know when I receive them.
Isabel
Hi Joh,
Lousia Annie b: 7 Nov 1860, Pancras Workhouse, Father: Edward Edwards, Mother: Jane Edwards formerly Smythe, Domestic Servant, informant: J Edwards, Mother, Pancras Workhouse, registered 14 Nov 1860.
Emma Jane b: 4 Dec 1852, 29 Riding House Lane. Father: George Edwards, Mother: Jane Edwards formerly Smythe, servant, informant: J Edwards, Mother, 29 Riding House Lane. registered 11 Jan 1853
Fanny Elize b: 4 Jun 1863, 19 Grafton Street, father: Aaron Edwards, mother: Susanna Edwards formerly Smith. Father's profession Brick Layer/Journey man, informant: S Edwards, mother, 19 Grafton Street, Kentish Town. registered, 6 Jul 1863.
Please let me know your thoughts.
If you have any other names and dates, I am happy to get the cert.
Isabel
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Emma and Jane admitted St Pancras workhouse October 15 1860
Emma transferred to Anersley School November 19
Jane discharged from St Pancras Workhouse March 18 1861 - note child born 7 November
Emma transferred back to workhouse 25 Jan 1861 and discharged March 18 with mother
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Hi
The most interesting thing is that the father on Emma's birth certificate is called George! Which is the name that Elizabeth gave for her father when she married.
So it does somewhat call into question the info Jane gave when she was in the workhouse in 1860/1. Then she said she had been married to Edward Edwards. Unless perhaps he was George Edward Edwards!
What to make of it? How much of the truth was she telling? The facts that she gave about herself seem to be accurate, other than being a Smythe (or Smithe even) rather than plan old Smith.
No birth has been found for Elizabeth, so there seems to be a bit of an impasse. Yes, Fanny Elize was my mistake (sorry!), it was just a coincdence (as Mabel said)
You could perhaps look for a death for Jane, possibly before 1881, possibly in St Pancras. And Elizabeth (and Louisa) should be around somewhere in the 1881 census. As we can't really be sure of her age, and she may be a servant, possibly just born London, you may not be able to pin Eizabeth down with certainty.
There is an Elizabeth F Edward, 18, born St Pancras, a servant in St Giles. Could that be some kind of name reversal of the Fanny E from 1871? :-\ Did Elizabeth give herself the Alice name later? Hard to know.
Jon
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Emma Jane b: 4 Dec 1852, 29 Riding House Lane. Father: George Edwards...
Ooh, look who's associated with that address in 1850 and 1851.
Westminster Rate Books 1634-1900
Year 1850 and 1851
Occupier's first name(s) Edward
Occupier's last name Edwards
Address Riding House Lane
Parish St Marylebone
Not seeing them at the address in the 1851 census, though.
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Oh my goodness! You people are amazing!! How you find this information I will never know... thank you sooo much 🙏
The George Edwards that is named on Emma's birth record could well be Edward Edwards 🤔
Isabel
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I've not been following this thread too closely....but has the marriage record for the couple been located? Didn't it take place in Germany (according to the workhouse records)?
So, if Edward/George Edwards left the family circa 1860 then who is the father of Elizabeth? Perhaps we'll never know.
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Hi Ashtone,
1) how would I find a marriage in Germany? I wonder what they were doing in Germany 🤔
2) John and I had the same thought about Elizabeth's father.
3) did George/Edward return to the family? Why did he leave in the first place? Elizabeth's tale was for work 🤔
4) if they were married in 1848 you would think that there would have been another child born before Emma 1852. Perhaps in Germany 🤔
5) also between Emma and Louisa who was born 1860
This family is quite a mystery...
Many thanks again,
Isabel
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1) how would I find a marriage in Germany? I wonder what they were doing in Germany 🤔
Depends what sites you are using. Do you have Ancestry and/or FindMyPast subs?
You would need the full subs to access global records.
There's also Family Search, which is free to use. You just need to register, which is hassle-free.
Personally, I find checking for any newspaper reports very helpful, too.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
Very odd that the known births are quite spread out. Plus the mother is in and out of the workhouse.
No sign of the father(s) with the family on the 1861 or 1871 census records.
My gut feeling is there's probably different fathers involved, particularly for the younger daughters.
If there was a marriage in Germany it would be good to find the record.
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Re Riding House Lane.
It is still in existence, and now called Riding House Street (is in Westminster)
In the 1851 census in Marylebone, number 29 is on piece 1486 folio 418 page 45
There are 7 households, but there are no Edwards of course.
On the previous page are the unmarried Sarah Wood at 27, and Thomas Lawrence at 28 (as per directory entries)
Unfortunately we can't see the rate books featuring Edward Edwards, and no number is given in the transcript. Also they don't seem to have the preceding and following years to 1850 and 1851.
I haven't come across any more exams for Jane in nearby places. I was surprised that she was in the St Pancras rough exam book for 1861-2, since she went into the workhouse there several times in 1860, firstly in August (when Edward disappeared) and had been there since October. The rough exam book covering 1860 seems to be lost.
However, since it appears to be a desertion case, Jane might be in the Pancras sworn exams for 1860, as they would probably have wanted a magistrate to issue a warrant for Edward. They are arranged chronologically, I don't think they are indexed (and I don't have access to them today anyway!)
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I don't think they are indexed (and I don't have access to them today anyway!)
Hopefully Isabel has access to Ancestry, even at her local library.
Not seeing Edward or Jane in the 1851 census yet.
Not to divert attention from poor old Jane, but I see that two of her sister's older children have Windsor for a birthplace (as per the 1851 census). Not seeing marriage yet for Lewis P Farrow (tailor) and Elizabeth Smith/Smythe yet. ??? Perhaps she brought those two children to the relationship? After all, Lewis was from Boston, Lincs.
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Lewis Parker Farrow
Elizabeth Smith
Marriage Banns 28 Aug 1836, Saint Giles In The Fields, Holborn:
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No wonder I didn't catch that. It doesn't appear to be on FindMyPast. ???
Apparently, Lewis Parker Farrow (born 1805) lived and worked in his youth as a tailor in Windsor. Explains why the older children where born there.
I wonder how "Smith" became "Smythe" for sister Jane. Was she trying to be posh?
Apologies if I've missed it, but what happened to Emma Jane (born 1852) after 1861? She's not with the Edwards family in the 1871 census.
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Apologies if I've missed it, but what happened to Emma Jane (born 1852) after 1861? She's not with the Edwards family in the 1871 census.
Op said the family story was that Emma went to Canada (corrected)
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I wonder how "Smith" became "Smythe" for sister Jane. Was she trying to be posh?
And…how it became Compton by Elizabeth’s marriage.
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Just a thought re Jane in 1851 working as a servant for a large household in Park St, Westminster :-\
Mrs Smith - Birth abt 1826 Englefield Green, Surrey
Residence St George Hanover Square, Middlesex
Kay
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Just a thought re Jane in 1851 working as a servant for a large household in Park St, Westminster :-\
Mrs Smith - Birth abt 1826 Englefield Green, Surrey
Residence St George Hanover Square, Middlesex
Kay
Yes. I’ve been mulling that one over.
Did you notice Selina Harvey (the niece) was also born Englefield Green
In 1861 she is Selina H. Bathurst Born Egham, surrey, and there is a baptism in 1812 that fits.
And the 2nd housemaid was born Egham. So they do appear to recruit from the area.
There are several Jane Smiths baptised at Egham in the period
1823, John & Ann. John a labourer.
1831, John & Hannah. John a gardener.
I wonder if they are the same couple and 1823 Jane died. (Added, don’t think so, there are two that fit in 1841)
Added. John & Ann had a lot of children baptised at Egham. In 1818 one of them was named Louisa. There were at least two Elizabeths too, but that’s a more common name.
And.. there are COMPTONs in Egham
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The one at Englefield green in 1841 is the 1831 baptism
John Smith, 40, Gardner Not born in county
Hannah 40, no
Ann 17, yes
Sarah 16, yes
Fanny 12, yes
Hannah 6, yes
Elizabeth 4, yes
(No comptons in Egham 1841)
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And.. there are COMPTONs in Egham
[/quote]
My goodness! I can't keep up... you guys are incredible 🥰
Thank you for all the information 🙏🙏🙏
Isabel
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BUT, 1851, jane the daughter of John & Hannah is still in Egham with her parents. ☹️
John born Reading, Berkshire age 49
But Hannah, 40, interestingly was born Norfolk
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Ugh..a jane Smith dau of John Smith a gardener married in 1853 to Thomas Yates, a widower and farm bailiff.
Witnesses John Smith & Elizabeth Smith.
2 marriages before also 1853 Egham, we have
William Farrow marrying Elizabeth Smith. Dau of Stephen Smith , Cordwainer.
Witnesses George Smith (marked) and Ellen Daly.
So now it’s getting very confusing!
But I think we can at least rule out the 1831 Jane. D of John & Hannah.