RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: greyingrey on Saturday 18 May 24 16:59 BST (UK)
-
I don't know where else to post. this......ive got a. family.in England who give their son the middle name of Lyon. in England in 1819....was this a purely jewish name at the. time and.considered somehow not very respectable by conservative non jewish families, or was it used by everyone
-
Can't answer re the religious side but many of my ancestors were given surnames as middle names.
Apart from one - none of the surnames connect to the FH so my conclusion was they were friends of the family.
3 females were given middles names of Bullock/McDonald/ Jackson
My paternal grandfather was given the middle name of Gilchrist because his eldest sister - born 22yrs previously - married a James Gilchrist a year before my grandfather was born. That middle name was subsequently given to my brother - he hated it😡
-
The Lyon name is part of the Scottish nobility, the Earls of Strathmore, and the Celtic Clan Lyon dates back to the 1300's and has origins in Anglo French nobility so not purely a Jewish name. With it origins in noble families, can't imagine it wasn't considered a respectable name in polite conservative society of Georgian England.
The Queen Mother was Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and the daughter of the 14th Earl of Strathmore.
-
I don't know where else to post. this......ive got a. family.in England who give their son the middle name of Lyon. in England in 1819....was this a purely jewish name at the. time and.considered somehow not very respectable by conservative non jewish families, or was it used by everyone
Why would anyone think that the Irish surname Lyon is Jewish??
-
Well.... J. Lyons & Co. was founded in London by a well-known Jewish family. One of my relatives ate lunch everyday at a Lyons' Corner House in the West End, courtesy of work luncheon vouchers. ;D
-
thanks. to you both.
I appreciate what you're saying, but im talking about working class Nottingham, where I've never come across anyone with the first or second name Lyon, who. wasn't. jewish...I know jews didn't name their children after living friends or relatives, so, if a non jewish family had named the baby after a. jewish friend, the friend wouldn't. have been very pleased.
at the time there was a fair amount of jewish immigration into Nottingham, I wonder if giving your child this name. would. have. provoked the same reaction as if you'd given it an Indian name in the 1950s.
I guess what I'm really asking is whether this was. a name like Samuel or Joseph, used by both communities or. would it have been seen as for4eign ???
-
Who even knew this name has/had Jewish links?
-
yes, Ashton, I just about. remember those days....
but thats the whole point, they were a jewish family and whereas there are lots of. Leons around now, in non jewish families, I wonder if that was the case then 8)
-
well, wexfllyer, id. always thought the present day name Leon had. a strong jewish connection, but I only had it confirmed when I found. out when one of my branches.was. jewish. and I found Lyons there but nowhere else in any of my. families.
so, as I said, it. doesn't seem to have been used by. both communities....but that. might be. just my experience
-
I have a family member who married someone called Lyons in London in the early 1950's.
He was indeed very Jewish and she had to change religion.
-
And of course J. Lyons & Co has the Nigella Lawson family connection. :)
-
Hi, I think the answer is yes, Elizabeth Bowes Lyon, wife of George VI was Very definitely Scottish.
-
I don't know where else to post. this......ive got a. family.in England who give their son the middle name of Lyon. in England in 1819....was this a purely jewish name at the. time and.considered somehow not very respectable by conservative non jewish families, or was it used by everyone
If a middle surname such as "Lyon" is not a family name, nor is it a place in France where the family originated from, it possibly means that somebody with the surname "Lyon" was helpful to the parents. By "helpful" I mean Mr/Mrs/Miss Lyon could have given a job to the father, or was a kindly landlord, or was helpful in another way.
-
Hi, sorry I should perhaps have been clearer, it was late!
Lyon is a not uncommon Scottish surname, as other people have mentioned, a middle name could be a grandparents surname, some other relative, or someone who was looked up to, I have relatives with the name of the local landowner. My reading of this that they were appreciative of their support or something similar.
-
my family. had no Scottish connections, as far as I can see
I think there are 3 possibilities here...either the family were jewish...the. woman went on to marry a jewish. man named Lyon...first name....or they were grateful to Lyon for some reason...but as I said, I understand that. it is against jewish tradition to name a. baby after someone while they're still alive.
intriguingly, the biological father might not still have been around at the baptism and I'm wondering if the mother took up with Lyon and put the name in herself, without the fathers knowledge....im really trying to figure out if the biological father was jewish.
we cant find any birth details. for the father....believe me everyone here has tried and I'm not going to put them through. that again..-....I do wonder about the name pattern of the first son.....the fathers first name was George and the second name was his mother's surname ....obviously, we've no idea. if the baby. paternal grandfather was George, but, would,it have been usual with the first ....anid indeed second. son.....to have shut. the fathers name out so much.
we cant find any birth details f
-
Hi, assuming we are talking about Samuel Lyon Asher, from previous thread, he is recorded as a Methodist, on the records of the James Pattison when he was transported in 1837.
His father is recorded as William and mother Elizabeth?
Do you need to assume a different father from Lyon who you see later in the Census?
William may have been a name taken when he immigrated.
The Nottingham synagogue opened in 1822 as far as I can see, so could he simply have reverted for the 1841 and 1851 Census?
-
aaah thank you David...I didn't know he'd declared himself a methodist.
ive long had the thought that maybe his father, William and his stepfather, Lyon, were one and the. same.
but then I thought about it from. the point of view of. George and Samuel.
your father presumably feels confident. enough to change his fitting in name William to his real name of Lyon....so everyone calls. him Lyon in. the new place he's moved to-....would you still continue to say your father was. William....possible, but I think unlikely.
I don't. know if you're interested in this family, but my line goes....lyon.....Jacob....Joseph....Joseph changes his. name to James, which fits in with the. anglicised name pattern of. Jacobs oldest son...which he was....ive been told by several descendants of Lyons various children that they'd been told by family members, that this was a family decision to leave the jewish faith....I wasn't told anything.
we did come up with.one possible candidate for William, where a William Asher married someone in Leicester roughly around the time that Lyon and Elizabeth are listed together....he became a soldier and stayed resident in Leicester and married. to her until his death
the good. people of this forum have been through. hell and high water to find his birth, but cant find anything, which maybe strengthens the idea. he was born abroad and or was. our man and made a bigamous. marriage..who knows.
j8u
-
Hi, glad to supply another brick removal! Yes, I see what you mean, though could it be that he felt a census was more official than his wedding, it could be the only place he referred to himself as Lyon? It seems a bit strange, though not impossible for Elizabeth to have married a William Asher and then a Lyon Asher?
I do know quite a lot of people who go by a completely different name than their “legal” name. Karen rather than Catherine springs to mind.
-
maybe the mods had better transfer this to Nottinghamshire now, although I'm sure the people there are sick to death of this. family.
I don't think its impossible for William and Lyon to be the same person...im just disinclined to think it...if he. was the same person, he'd already moved to nottingham when he had. his first 2 sons baptised.....he gave Samuels father's name. as William in 1819. and Alfreds fathers name as Lyon in 1820....if he'd had Samuel baptised in Leicester id be inclined to agree with you...fresh start and all this.
have you got an interest in this family....if so, I might have some background information for. you
-
Hi, not specifically the Asher name as far as I know, I do have lots of relatives in and around Nottingham though, Baldwin, Moore, Mallet, amongst many others.
An interesting puzzle, perhaps of the kind DNA would help with. I have managed to push my trees back a couple of generations that way, find a reason to go looking, and then lo and behold you find the documentation confirming things. Looking at wills and books you would never otherwise have looked at. I presume you have looked at Nottingham business directories? I had a Quick Look but could not see any Asher names.
-
yes, ive looked, but I'm open to new ideas.
one of Lyons sons. married an Elizabeth Moore, who's connected to a munton more....that sounds quite good when you sing it to the tune of postman pat....think her. father was Thomas Moore though.....will have to get.out my notes
we really have checked through.all the William Ashers we could find....just the one in Leicester left....but, of course, not all the refcords have been found or transcribed.
thought of Dan tests but people tell me its too far back 6to be any use
-
Hi, Ok, I had thought you probably would have done.
I am not sure that I would agree with DNA not going that far back. I have quite a lot of matches where the most recent common ancestor is in the 1730-1760 period, and some hinting even further back. I will admit some of it took some proving to my satisfaction.
You might get a German match which might help sort things out.
-
thanks David....I have another branch of my family, with both g grandparents lutheran germans, but the Dna is something to think about.
sam could have been a methodist because
William was
sam had genuinely been converted
there was a methodist as minster on his deportation and he wanted. to get well in
I believe Lyon worked for. a prominent methodist in nottm and, even if I'm wrong, this person helped the jews in nottm a great deal and the methodist chapel in nottm was more or less across the road from where they lived
-
its William who's the big mystery