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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Glynn65 on Thursday 16 May 24 05:50 BST (UK)
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Looking for the Death Certificate of John Baird, Born/Christened 22/08/1784 in Ayr, Scotland.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to find when or where he passed away! In 1861 John was living in Dundee, Angus, Scotland with his wife Helen, John Was 77.
John was the son of William Baird and Mary Gibson.
This is the John Baird I've located but he's not a match: BAIRD JOHN 72 GIBSON M 1877 474 / 2
BUCHANAN. The John I'm looking for would've been 93 in 1877.
Any help would be really appreciated.
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Have you considered the John Baird, age 87, who died in 1871 in St Andrew, Dundee?
His wife, Helen McLean, died in the same district of Dundee in 1869.
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" In 1861 John was living in Dundee, Angus, Scotland with his wife Helen, John Was 77."
When and where did wife Helen die?. Where is Helen buried?
On Helen's death certificate, who is the informant? Is Helen recorded as wife or widow?
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unsure where Helen Died, but Helen was born in Dundee on 26 Jan 1790
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The 1871 census has John living in St Andrew Dundee with his daughter Jane.
According to the census, John was born in Hamilton, Lanarkshire, not Ayrshire.
Are you looking at the correct John and Helen?
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unsure where Helen Died, but Helen was born in Dundee on 26 Jan 1790
See reply #1
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Hi Neale,
Helen's maiden name was Watson if this helps?
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Hi Neale,
Helen's maiden name was Watson if this helps?
Then, I think you might have been looking at the wrong census.
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Mmm I think I maybe 🤔
Tough one, John was definitely born in Ayr … can anybody track him please.
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John Baird married Helen Watson in 1817 in Glasgow.
What is your reason for thinking he was born in Ayr in 1784?
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The 1871 census has John living in St Andrew Dundee with his daughter Jane.
According to the census, John was born in Hamilton, Lanarkshire, not Ayrshire.
Are you looking at the correct John and Helen?
That Jane is far too old to be the Jane who was the daughter of John BAIRD and Helen WATSON. She was baptised in 1820 so would have been around 51 in 1871, not 63. The 1871 Jane married in 1833. The Dalfield Walk family in Dundee are not the right ones.
This looks like the right ones in Madon Bank (Meadow Bank?), St Cuthberts, Edinburgh in 1841.
John Baird 45, Gardener
Helen Baird 45
Jane Baird 20
John Baird 15
Wm Baird 15
Elbert Mcallister 40
Euphemia Mcallister 40
Just a transcription so I can't vouch for accuracy. John and Helen thought they were aged 45-49 so a year of birth around 1792 - 1796.
Debra :)
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Debra, I’d agree with you, John a Gardener, his son and Grandson was both Gardeners.
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This looks like the right ones in Madon Bank, St Cuthberts, Edinburgh in 1841.
John Baird 45, Gardener
Helen Baird 45
Jane Baird 20
John Baird 15
Wm Baird 15
Elbert Mcallister 40
Euphemia Mcallister 40
FreeCEN transcribes the address as Meadow Bank, and the McAllisters are Gilbert and Euphemia, in a separate household, so there's nothing there to help with the Baird family. SP and FindMyPast also say Gilbert not Elbert. I assume, therefore, that the foregoing is from Ancestry.
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That Jane is far too old to be the Jane who was the daughter of John BAIRD and Helen WATSON. She was baptised in 1820 so would have been around 51 in 1871, not 63. The 1871 Jane married in 1833. The Dalfield Walk family in Dundee are not the right ones.
Yes, that is exactly why I ask Glynn65 if they are looking at the right person, and why I asked about the birth of John in 1784 in Ayr.
Basic facts need to be clarified.
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unsure where Helen Died, but Helen was born in Dundee on 26 Jan 1790
I cannot see a baptism with that birth date in Dundee, only one is in Renfrewshire with parents Thomas WATSON and Isabel FROW.
If John and Helen died before registration started in 1855 then you may not find any records. Burial records are few and far between in Scotland.
In 1841 John Jnr. was a jeweller's apprentice. I think he married Christian/Christina MITCHELL in St Cuthbert's in 1843. They can be followed through the census records to 1891 in Perth and John died in 1893.
JOHN BAIRD
Aged 72
Mother's maiden surname: WATSON
1893
387 / 591
Perth
Debra :)
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Hi Neale, apologies for the late reply, I was nowhere near my pc, here is the baptism of John Baird in Ayr: John Name John Baird Sex Male
Christening Date 22 Aug 1784
Christening Place Ayr, Ayrshire, Scotland.
Christening Place (Original) Ayr, Ayr, Scotland.
Birth Date 15 Aug 1784
Father's Name William Baird Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Mary Gibson Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Christening
John is my 5 gg.
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I acknowledge that there is a baptism for a John Baird in Ayr in 1784, but I see no proof that he is the same John Baird who married Helen Watson in Glasgow, and appears in the Midlothian census of 1841 as born about 1795.
If you do not find him in the 1851 census, he died before then. Therefore you don't know where he was born or his birth year.
Hence my question "What is your reason for thinking he was born in Ayr in 1784?"
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Yes, I've been looking at the 1851 and 1861 Census and agree The Dalfield Walk family in Dundee are not the right ones. Thanks for the correction, Dundee and Neale.
I also have John Baird married Helen Watson in my records in 1817 in Glasgow, Thanks for pointing that out too Neale, I'm now wondering if I've been on the wrong track again, John Baird and Helen Watson have been the hardest people for me to track down, so far.
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John Baird was the Son of William Baird and Mary Gibson b. 22 Aug 1784 (Scotland's People).
Below is the christening date for Archibald, John and Helens 1st Son.
Name: Archibald Baird. Event Type: Christening. Event Date: 24 Jun 1818.
Event Place: Mauchline, Ayrshire, Scotland. Event Place (Original): Mauchline, Ayr, Scotland.
Gender: Male. Birth Date: 5 Jun 1818. Father's Name: John Baird. Mother's Name: Hellen Watson.
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John Baird was the Son of William Baird and Mary Gibson b. 22 Aug 1784 (Scotland's People).
Yes.
Below is the christening date for Archibald, John and Helens 1st Son.
Name: Archibald Baird. Event Type: Christening. Event Date: 24 Jun 1818.
Event Place: Mauchline, Ayrshire, Scotland. Event Place (Original): Mauchline, Ayr, Scotland.
Gender: Male. Birth Date: 5 Jun 1818. Father's Name: John Baird. Mother's Name: Hellen Watson.
Yes.
But what is your evidence to prove that John Baird, husband of Helen Watson and father of Archibald is the same person as John Baird, son of William Baird and Mary Gibson?
If that census is the right family, John's age is recorded as 45, which means that he was born between 1791 and 1796. John Baird, born in 1784, if he was still living in 1841, would have been 56 and should have been recorded as 55 - a full ten years older.
The most obvious candidate to be father of John Baird, father-in-law of Helen Watson, and grandfather of Archibald is surely John, son of Archibald Baird and Agnes Bell, who was baptised in Mauchline on 3 January 1796?
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This is what the indexes to the original records show.
John Baird and Helen Watson were married in Glasgow in 1817. Their family were
Archibald, baptised 1818 in Mauchline
Jean, baptised 1820 in Leith
John, baptised 1822 in Leith
William, baptised 1824 in Greenock
In 1841 the family, minus Archibald, were living in Meadowbank, Edinburgh.
Have you viewed all the baptism records? Are the witnesses' names recorded, and if so do they provide any clues?
Archibald Baird and Agnes Bell had eleven of a family, five baptised in New Cumnock then six baptised in Mauchline. If I were you, I would be looking at some of those baptisms to see if they resided in the same place where John B and Helen Watson were when their Archibald was baptised.
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Hi forfarian, I have no proof, only it came up on ancestry DNA, I have also seen names on somebody else’s tree! Obviously 🙄 these aren’t to be trusted, I normally go back through the census, birth, marriage and death certificates, but John has been very challenging, maybe because I’m barking up the wrong tree 🌳
So you think Archibald and Agnes are the way to go?
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Hi forfarian, I have no proof, only it came up on ancestry DNA, I have also seen names on somebody else’s tree! Obviously 🙄 these aren’t to be trusted, I normally go back through the census, birth, marriage and death certificates, but John has been very challenging, maybe because I’m barking up the wrong tree 🌳
So you think Archibald and Agnes are the way to go?
You are absolutely right not to trust anything you find online, and especially not other people's trees on commercial web sites like Ancestry.
In my opinion Archibald and Agnes are a better fit for the parents of John Baird because
(a) John's first son was named Archibald
(b) they were in Mauchline, which is where Archibald was baptised
(c) he is the right age to be the one in the census in Edinburgh in 1841
so I would definitely want to investigate them if I were you.
It may be that Archibald (senior) was related to William-husband-of-Mary-Gibson which could account for a DNA match.
It is also possible that your John Baird is one of the many people whose baptism record, if it ever existed, has not survived.
But don't trust me either! Make sure to leave no stones of your own unturned.
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Thank you 🙏
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Hi Forfarian, I now have proof that john Baird was the son of William Baird & Mary Gibson, I have the Birth from the old parish register from 1784 (Scotland's People), still unsure about the census yet though.
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Good.
But if all you have is the birth/baptism record, what is your proof that these arehis correct parents?