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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kilkenny => Topic started by: Isabel Griggs on Tuesday 14 May 24 10:08 BST (UK)
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I am looking for a birth record for James Campbell. On Scotland census he stated his birth in Kilkenny, Ireland. His father was Robert Campbell, Mother Janet Banton.
On his death certificate it states his father Robert Campbell Soldier 89th Regiment/deceased and Janet Campbell nee Benton deceased.
I was given information that in 1804, one of this regiment's depots was at Kilkenny, north of Waterford, Ireland.
Any help appreciated.
Thank you,
Isabel
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The Reay Fencibles spent some years in Ireland while the regular army was fighting Napoleon. Robert probably met and maried Janet "Betty" Banton (possibly Bannatyne) in Glasgow, and she followed his unit
I was not aware of Robert's son James - where and when did he die?
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Thank you for replying. I appreciate any help you can give me.
James Campbell was my 2x great grandfather. He married Jane Sutherland in Tongue 28 Feb 1829.
They had 9 children. Their 3rd child, William was my great grandfather.
Infromation on James that I have. Would love to find his birth record.
Married: On the 28th Feb 1829 Tongue, Sutherland, Scotland, Banns were placed on the 11th February 1829. James Campbell married Jane Sutherland
Death [048/ 00 0009]:
James Campbell Blacksmith & Crofter married to Jane Sutherland died on the 11th June 1884 at 12h 30m P.M Durine aged 82yrs. Parents Robert Campbell Soldier 89th Regiment/deceased and Janet Campbell nee Benton deceased. Cause of death Chronic Bronchitis 3yrs as certified by James Little. In formant Charles Campbell, son present. Registered on the 14th June 1884 at Durine by Torquil Neilson.
Thank you again,
Isabel
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If your ancestor was born in Kilkenny he was probably baptised there. You haven’t said what denomination he was. If from a Scottish family he might have been Presbyterian. However there wasn’t a Presbyterian church in Kilkenny around 1800 (one did open in 1841). So he was probably baptised into the Church of Ireland (COI) instead. There are 3 COI churches in the town. St Canice’s records start in 1790, St Mary’s in 1729 and St John’s early records were lost in the 1922 fire in Dublin.
St Canice & St Mary’s records are now in the RCB library in Dublin. (Personal visit required to view them). Rootsireland has some years for both on their site but I don’t know which years. My guide to COI records doesn’t say.
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Hello Elwyn,
Thank you for this information.
Robert Campbell, James' father was born in Durness, Sutherland, Scotland. I have been given the following information.
James Campbell's father Robert was in the 89th Regiment of Foot. It is known from the Army Lists and the London Gazette that, in 1804, one of this regiment's depots was at Kilkenny, north of Waterford, Ireland. A depot was a place for gathering together officers on leave or reporting for duty, mail, and stores etc.
See War Office: Army Lists 1796 to 1815 and London Gazette at http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/search. I have never been able to find this information :(.
This is James' death cert which also states that Robert served in the 89th Regiment.
Death [048/ 00 0009]:
James Campbell Blacksmith & Crofter married to Jane Sutherland died on the 11th June 1884 at 12h 30m P.M Durine aged 82yrs. Parents Robert Campbell Soldier 89th Regiment/deceased and Janet Campbell nee Benton deceased. Cause of death Chronic Bronchitis 3yrs as certified by James Little. In formant Charles Campbell, son present. Registered on the 14th June 1884 at Durine by Torquil Neilson.
Robert married Janet Banton. I have not found a marriage for them in Scotland. It has been said that she may have been born in Ireland and James being first born in Ireland before they came back to Scotland.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a birth certificate for either Robert or Janet in Scotland. But I have found an earlier marriage for Robert Campbell and Catherine Campbell (alias Grange).
Parish Register of Durness -Marriage 1764-1814 Page 66, No. 8- 1783
Robert Campbell, alias Macarlishmhicalister, in Saingo... Catharine Campbell, alias Grange, in Keoldale 5 Dec.
I have 19% DNA from Ireland- this family might be where that % came from.
Anyway, I do appreciate all your help.
Isabel
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Isabel,
I think you either need to take out a subscription to rootsireland or get a Dublin based researcher to look at the church records in the RCB library to see if you can find a baptism in the Kilkenny records.
Soldiers marrying someone they met whilst on duty, and then taking them home was fairly common. I have a copy of the 1841 census for Handa (quite close to Sango where your family lived) and I know that one the island's residents then was a married woman born in Ireland. I also know from speaking to one of her descendants that they had met whilst he was serving there.
The only thing I would say is that the surname Banton is almost unknown in Ireland. In the 1901 census there are only 3 in the whole country, and 2 of those were born in England. One was serving in the army incidentally. Benton is a little more common (51) but none in Co. Kilkenny. So I’d wonder if the lady did come from Ireland. Was she the daughter of another soldier perhaps?
I wouldn’t rely too heavily on the DNA ethnicity test as firm proof of Irish connections. Those tests are based on averages and are not very accurate. There has been so much movement within the British Isles over the past 5 thousand years that there’s not really much difference between the DNA of anyone in these islands. They do say ethnicity testing is as about as reliable as a horoscope.
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Elwyn, thank you for your response. I have registered with rootsireland just now. I will pay for a subscription when I know that I am going to get a chance to have a good go at searching. I appreciate you telling me about this group. I had not known about rootsireland.
I have noticed that on some documents Janet is 'Banton' others 'Benton' I will have a good search when I get a subscription.
Many thanks again,
Isabel
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Quick piece of info: Janet "Betty" Banton was reportedly from GlasgowThere is no record of a birth or marriage of a Banton in 1770 -1800, or of a "Benton" in Glasgow in the same period, which is why I favour her name actually being Bannatyne.
I also suspect that Robert and Janet entered into an old Scots irregular marriage by declaratio de praesenti before she followed him to Ireland (perhaps pegnant?)
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-and-kirk-session-scotland
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Hello, I agree with you. I could not find Janet Banton or Benton in SP. My idea was that she might have been Irish, and they married in Ireland: -\. As for her actual name being "Bannatyne" anything is possible. I do wonder if she had a first marriage.
I didn't know about irregular marriage by declaratio de praesenti. So, thank you. I will have a look at that link, it is going to take some looking through :) I did register with rootsireland an will subscribe when I have time to just go searching.
But you could well be right. It does appear that she was in ireland with Robert as James was born there. I would love to find a record for him. My brick wall 😒
Isabel
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Have you acquired the records for the other children born to Robert and Janet to see what information, if any, it gives you?
CAMPBELL, WILLIAM
parents - ROBERT CAMPBELL OR MACARLISHICICALISTER JANET BANTON SEE ENT
M
30/11/1804
048
10 / 99
DURNESS
CAMPBELL, JANET
ROBERT CAMPBELL/JANET BANTON FR 118 (FR118)
F
18/11/1810
048
10 / 113
DURNESS
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Thanks for your response.
Yes, I have.
1) 1804 -Births 048 / Durness, Page 99 of 184.
Robert Campbell, alias Macarlishicicalister, Soldier, and Janet Banton from Glasgow or thereabout, had William baptised on the 30th of Nov. Janet Roberts, wife sponsor.
The document was given to me by a lady helping me on Scotland Genealogy site. 28 Apr 2024 She found this entry when she went to Inverness History House.
2)Parish Register of Durness-Baptism 1764-1814, Page 48, No. 20-1804
Robert Campbell, alias Macarlishicicalister, and Janet, Betty Banton from Glasgow or thereabout, Janet 30 Nov. I thought this may be a mistake, I believe that they saw the name Janet on William's birth entry and wrote that name. There is no Parish Register of Durness-Baptism 1764-1814 entry for William.
3) Parish Register of Durness.-Baptism 1764-1814, Page56, No. 23-1810
Robert Campbell, out-pensioner of Chelsea Hospital, and .... Janet Banton (from Glasgow or thereabout), in Durin, Janet 18 Nov.
4) I have been told that there is a son Charles Campbell 1816 as well, but I have not found the birth entry yet.
Many thanks again.
Isabel
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I would recommend taking a look at these Chelsea Pensioner records for Robert Campbell. His discharge date of 1808 coincides with information from those two children’s births in 1804 and 1810.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8896544
Remember that not all information on death certificates is correct. His regiment may not have been remembered correctly, and of course soldiers were moved between regiments and often served with a number of different regiments.
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4) I have been told that there is a son Charles Campbell 1816 as well, but I have not found the birth entry yet.
It is available from Scotlands People, although the mother’s name is not recorded on the index. For the very small cost, it would be worth getting to see what more information you can acquire.
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Thanks Neale, I appreciate the link. I will certainly that a look.
I totally agree with you, death certificate information was not always correct. You are right. I have focused on the 89th regiment 🤔
I will have a look for Charles Campbell 1816 on SP when I get a chance. I have credits. I hope I find him.
Many thanks,
Isabel
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Isabel, Do you have the record of Robert Campbell's first marriage to Katherine? What information does it give, if any?
Quick piece of info: Janet "Betty" Banton was reportedly from GlasgowThere is no record of a birth or marriage of a Banton in 1770 -1800, or of a "Benton" in Glasgow in the same period, which is why I favour her name actually being Bannatyne.
There are Bunton / Benton / Barton surnames in Lanarkshire in the relevant time period.
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Hi Neale,
Here is the record that I have.
Parish Register of Durness -Marriage 1764-1814 Page 66, No. 8- 1783
Robert Campbell, alias Macarlishmhicalister, in Saingo... Catharine Campbell, alias Grange, in Keoldale 5 Dec.
Thanks,
Isabel
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I would recommend taking a look at these Chelsea Pensioner records for Robert Campbell. His discharge date of 1808 coincides with information from those two children’s births in 1804 and 1810.
Thank you so much for the link. I found two records for Robert Campbell
ROBERT CAMPBELL Born DURNESS, Sutherland Served in 72nd Foot Regiment; 78th Foot Regiment Discharged aged...
Royal Hospital, Chelsea: Discharge Documents of Pensioners. Certificates of Service (disability or reason for discharge, length of service, rank, regiment, age, place of birth and... ROBERT CAMPBELL Born DURNESS, Sutherland Served in 72nd Foot Regiment; 78th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 50 after 23 years 1 month of service.
Date: 1808
And yes, it does fit with the children being born 1804 and 1810.
Now, I just have to find James his son who was born in Ireland.
Much appreciated,
Isabel
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Neale/Isabel
That's helpful. Counting back from 1808 fifty years gives a birthdate in 1758 as expected. That predates the parish register by six years.
All we know of Janet Banton/Benton etc is that she was from "Glasgow or thereabout", which could easily cover most of North Lanarkshire and perhaps some of Dunbartonshire.