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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: iowagirl on Sunday 05 May 24 17:03 BST (UK)
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Hi, You have all helped me in the past with my Grange family in Manchester - particularly their home, The Hollies, and their business, The Grand Junction Pub. I am hoping someone might know what the above place/business is/was.
It is mentioned in a spreadsheet dated August, 1914. There are 3 columns, date; parties and description.
Heading: Royal Livery Stables in Hulme, Manchester, subject to Chief Rent of £19 3 0
1. 22 May 1848 John Roberts to Hannah Sutcliffe Feoffment
2. 11 Aug 1871 Hannah Sutcliffe of 1st part, Samuel Skaife Grange 2nd part and Charles Major 3rd part Converyance
3. 3 Dec 1877 Mary Hopwood & Samuel Skaife Grange Grant of right to interfere with lights
4. 1 May 1878 Mary Hopwood & Samuel Skaife Grange Deed endorsed on last mentioned grant
5. 1 Mar 1911 E & SS Grange to SS Grange Conveyance
I think John Roberts owned/leased/ran the Grand Junction around 1850 or so.
Charles Major (Mager) was married to Mary Skaife, sister to Jane Skaife Grange - wife of Samuel Skaife Grange.
E Grange is Edwin and he and SS Grange were sons of Samuel Skaife Grange.
Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
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There are newspaper references dating from 1885 relating to Royal Livery Stables, Preston Street, Hulme. Nothing earlier that I can see.
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Side-by-side map view showing where Preston-street was in Hulme (it runs bottom left to top right in the LH panel.
https://tinyurl.com/bdz7kja4 (https://tinyurl.com/bdz7kja4)
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Hi Alan, Thanks for your reply. I haven't found a mention of the Stables in the newspapers, but will look again.
I'm not certain what I'm looking at in maps comparison. I found the Grange Junction, at the intersection of Preston, Jackson and Warde Streets in older map. Changed quite a bit in newer maps.
Was there a mention of the Royal Livery Stables that I missed? Appreciate your help, sorry I'm a "little slow" on the uptake here. Elaine
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Alan, I did see the mention of the horses for sale at Royal Livery Stable, Preston Street.
Hopefully I will find something else for more explanation. Thank you so much for your time and replies.
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Hi Alan, Thanks for your reply. I haven't found a mention of the Stables in the newspapers, but will look again.
I'm not certain what I'm looking at in maps comparison. I found the Grange Junction, at the intersection of Preston, Jackson and Warde Streets in older map. Changed quite a bit in newer maps.
Was there a mention of the Royal Livery Stables that I missed? Appreciate your help, sorry I'm a "little slow" on the uptake here. Elaine
No, I’ve looked at various maps, including earlier ones, and I see no sign of any stables. I’m not even convinced that the newspaper references are to the same place as your document. Where was hte Grand Junction by the way?
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No mention of livery stables in Preston Street in this directory of 1895. The Grand Junction is on the NE corner at No. 2.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/153116/rec/9
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Going back to your "spreadsheet" (#1) this sounds like a summary of an Abstract of Title prepared for the next conveyance of this property, to prove the chain of ownership and the vendor's right to sell it. Or, it is the "Deeds referred to", listed at the end of the next conveyance.
A feoffment is a form of conveyance, which went out of use shortly after the first deed, when the law relating to conveyances was simplified. Charles Major may be there acting as a trustee to Grange, not owning a share in the property.
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Hi Molly, I think Samuel Skaife Grange (my 2xgg'father) and Charles Mager, besides being related thru marriage, might also be partners at the Grand Junction Pub. Charles is shown as a publican in some on the censuses, and possibly lived there.
Yes, the info on the spreadsheet was basically an abstract of owners from 1848 thru 1870 something or other. John Roberts is listed and I know that he either owned or leased or was employed at Grand Junction before Samuel Skaife Grange. I just wondered if possibly it was the same place with a different name in 1848.
Thanks for input. All appreciated.
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A few thoughts on Hannah Sutcliffe, named on the document. Is this her I wonder?
There is a Hannah Sutcliffe living in Preston Street in 1851 (at No.26), 1861 (at No.24) and 1871 (at No.24). She is the umarried head of household and is respectively: mangle woman, shopkeeper, shopkeeper. Her age is consistent with a year of birth 1804, and there is a baptism that fits in Rochdale in 1805. She seems to have died in 1873.
Where did she live? Looking at the directory linked in reply #6, No.22 is just before (to the N) of Clopton Street. Then in the next block are Nos.30, 32, and 34 before City Place. So where are the numbers between 22 and 30? Some of them appear in censuses up to 1871 but I cannot find them in 1881 or 1891. There is an interesting looking building on the southerly corner of the Preston Street/Clopton Street junction. Could this be the site of Hannah Sutcliffe's abodes, and of the Royal Livery Stables after 1871?
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Here is a livery stables and a vet at 150 Clopton Street in 1895. Premises let perhaps?
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/152904/rec/9
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In an 1875 directory Clopton Street ends at no 148, and Preston Street has erratic numbering there, or a misprint: 20,22,23,16,30,32,34.
However there seems to be a gap where the stables were, or not yet built.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/258686/rec/6
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1886, 150 Clopton Street: Jones, Alfred Jas. Veterinary Surgeon.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/151377/rec/4
Preston Street: gap between 22 and 30.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/151517/rec/4
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More evidence that the building on the corner of Clopton Street and Preston Street is the Royal Livery Stables, and a link to Samuel Skaife Grange.
From the same Directory (1895) as linked in reply #6, but looking at Clopton Street [navigate to p495 to find this]:
Clopton Street, City Road to Preston Street, Hulme, Right hand side.
the last two addresses listed are both No. 150, and they are
Reginald W Johnstone, livery stable keeper
EH Stent MRCVS, veterinary surgeon
Greater Manchester Rate Books 1893
150 Clopton Street
occupiers: Reginald Wood Johnstone and Ernest Howard Stent
owner S. S Grange's Ex's [Executors]
Description: mews
Shorter Oxford Dictionary
mews noun,
"Orig., the royal stables at Charing Cross in London, built on the former site of the royal hawk mews. Later gen., any set of stable buildings grouped round an open yard or alley. Treated as sing. or pl. LME."
In the 1894-95 Electoral Register the listing for the joint owners of 150 Clopston Street is:
Reginald Wood Johnstone, 6 Wilberforce Terrace
Ernest Howard Stent, 556 Chester Road, Stretford
snap MollyC!
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This is the largest map scale, 1:500 surveyed 1889.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t5i/
Added: For comparison, this is the 1:1056 scale of 1848. It shows the original premises fronting Preston Street appear to be two houses/shops. Is this where Hannah Sutcliffe lived? The Grand Junction was not yet built.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t5j/
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Manchester Courier, 13 Nov 1847
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16 April 1890: Manchester Evening News
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There is a discrepancy between the Grand Junction Inn being there in Nov 1847, (#15) but not on the map in 1848 (#14). The six-inch map created at the same time was surveyed 1845, published Nov. 1848. That shows Upper Jackson Street finishing in a pond(!) before it could quite reach the junction. Warde Street was not fully laid out as far as the junction. Clearly this was a developing suburb and things were altering quickly.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t5k/
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3. 3 Dec 1877 Mary Hopwood & Samuel Skaife Grange Grant of right to interfere with lights
4. 1 May 1878 Mary Hopwood & Samuel Skaife Grange Deed endorsed on last mentioned grant
In the Greater Manchester Rate Books, Mary Hopwood is recorded as the owner from 1891–1900 of 148 Clopton Street (adjacent to the stables and on the same block between Cuba Street and Preston Street). The occupier shown as Edward Bouch, agreeing with the 1895 directory.
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Using the Greater Manchester Rate Books I have tried to follow the history of the livery stables site. I start in 1868 with the first appearance of Hannah Sutcliffe in Clopton Street. (There are much earlier records for her in Preston Street.)
1868
139 Clopton Street, 2 records
occ William Reeve, also owner, beerhouse
occ William Reeve, owner Hannah Sutcliffe, stables and yard
1871
139 Clopton Street, a similar set of 2 records
1872
139 Clopton Street, 3 records
occ Arthur George Garnett, owner William Reeve, beerhouse
occ Taylor Garnett Evans & Co, owner William Reeve, advertising board
occ William Reeve, owner Hannah Sutcliffe, stables and yard
now the stables site transfers from Hannah Sutcliffe to Samuel Skaife Grange
1873
139 Clopton Street, 3 records
occ Arthur George Garnett, owner William Reeve, beerhouse
occ Taylor Garnett Evans & Co, owner William Reeve, advertising board
occ William Reeve, owner Saml. Grange, stables and yard
there are similar records for 1874 and 1875
now there seems to be a renumbering (139 > 148) and/or redevelopment
1877
148 Clopton Street, 3 records.
occ James Astall, owner Wm Hopwood, house
occ S Grange, owner S Grange, stables and yard
occ Taylor Garnett Evans & Co, owner S Grange, advertising board
1878
148 Clopton Street, 2 records.
occ James Astall, owner Wm Hopwood, house
occ William Holland, owner S Grange, livery stables
1879
148 Clopton Street, 2 records.
occ James Astall, owner Wm Hopwood, house
occ Walter Johnson Holland, owner S S Grange, mews
[In the 1881 census Walter J Holland is a vet, age 26, lodging nearby at 7 Wilberforce Terrace]
1883
148 Clopton Street, 2 records.
occ James Astall, owner Wm Hopwood, house
occ Walter Johnson Holland [crossed out] Thomas Green, owner S S Grange, mews
1884
148 Clopton Street, 2 records.
occ James Astall, owner Wm Hopwood Ex., house
occ Thomas Green, owner S S Grange, mews
death of S S Grange, appearance of R W Johnstone
1889
148 Clopton Street, 2 records.
occ James Astall, owner Mrs Hopwood, house
occ Reginald Wood Johnstone, owner S S Grange Exctrs, mews
1890 same except Edward Bouch has appeared as occupier of the Hopwood property
1891 same
1892 same (owner now named as Mary Hopwood)
1893
change of numbering: Hopwood property is still 148, Grange property is now 150
E H Stent has appeared as co-occupier with RW Johnstone at 150
…which takes us up to the 1895 directory, and I can stop thinking about this.
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A well-spent two and a half hours Alan!
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A well-spent two and a half hours Alan!
And I almost didn’t post it! But I needed closure.
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Thank you both, Alan and Molly! I had not run across Samuel Skaife Grange owning the stable. I appreciate your help so much!
Any SS Grange after 1885 would be the son of Samuel Skaife Grange.
Is there any way to tell when the Grand Junction transferred from Grange family to someone else? As of 1911, Ed Grange (son of Samuel Skaife Grange and bro to SS Grange) was running it. He died around 1915 or so and his wife, Annie Skaife Grange, continued to live at The Hollies, but I don't know about the Pub.
Elaine
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P. S. Alan, I appreciate your 2 and a half hours you will never get back!!!
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Any SS Grange after 1885 would be the son of Samuel Skaife Grange.
Except that the references are to executors of SSG senior I think?, so it seems that it took a long time for his affairs to be sorted.
When did the two SSG’s die?
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Samuel Skaife Grange/aka Skaife, died in 1885. His estate was probated then with his wife, Jane, one of the executors. Then, there was another probate in 1917- Probate London 26 March to Samuel Skaife Grange farmer. Effects £75. Skaife's son, Samuel Skaife Grange/ aka SS Grange, died in Iowa, USA in 1946.
I have a copy of his "long winded" :) will. I just found his will. His wife and Smith Wm Skaife were executors and trustees. Then he had 3 codicils, and end result his sons, Ed and SSG were appointed and SW Skaife and his brother, John, were excluded. But no explanation for 2nd probate. I think when SSG came over in 1911, he and his brother were closing out assets left to them from Skaife. SSG was back in Manchester in Dec 1914 and stayed about 10 days. Then he and his youngest son, Paul, were back in 1934, which was right after brother Ed's wife, Annie, died in 1931; Ed died in 1915. I wonder if their ages had them closing these assets or if Ed knew he was ill.
The fact that John Roberts was involved in the livery stable made me wonder if that was then the Pub, but evidently not. John Roberts also had his fingers in the Pub. Possibly he owned several pieces of property in that area.
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The Grand Junction Inn after 1885
From the Rate Book records:
141 Warde Street (the Grand Junction Inn)
from 1885-1900 the owner is 'executors of S S Grange'
1885-1892 occupier is Jane Grange
1893-1900 occupier is Edwin Grange
unfortunately the records are very sparse after that
in 1916 the owner is Hyde Queen's Brewery, no named occupier
in 1926, same owner, occupier is Charles Pringle
from census records
1901 Edwin Grange is head and licensee, but Walter and Florence Mayer are managing the pub.
1911 Walter and Florence Mayer are residents and managers; SS Grange and his wife Emily are visitors. Edwin Grange is at The Hollies and is a licensed victualler.
1921 Charles Pringle is the resident and licensed victualler, employer is Hyde Queen's Brewery, (see 1926 Rates record)
So, at the moment, all I can say is that the pub was sold sometime between 1911 and 1921. If Edwin Grange's wife Annie took over in 1915 the pub had been sold by 1921. I can't see any newspaper item transferring the license, I don't know if these were still published in newspapers by this date. My guess would be that the pub was sold to the brewery soon after his death.
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Fantastic! That fits perfectly. It appears most of the assets were switched to my gg'father, SS Grange in 1911. Ed died in 1915. So, the pub evidently sold in 1916.
So now you and Molly figured it out for me. Ed dies in 1915, Pub sold 1916, Annie dies 1931 or so and The Hollies = personal residence= sold at auction around 1933. Then SSG and his son, Paul, come over in 1934, but uncertain what is left to dispose of. Samuel Skaife Grange owned property in Yorkshire, where he was from, so maybe some of that was left to take care of.
Thank you again. If you need anything from USA, let me know. hinshaw77a@gmail.com
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These maps are awesome! Thank you Alan and Molly.
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Footnote:
I have been browsing Greater Manchester archives catalogue. The following may be of interest.
Alterations to Grand Junction Hotel
Owner: E Grange, Grand Junction Hotel
https://www.gmlives.org.uk/results.html?#imu[rid=ecatalogue.556117]
Apparently a building plan, undated.
4 photos, 1971. Grand Junction Hotel, Hulme
https://www.gmlives.org.uk/results.html?#imu[rid=ecatalogue.1008486]
16 photos 1960-65. Preston Street, Hulme
https://www.gmlives.org.uk/results.html?#imu[rid=ecatalogue.1008486]
Unfortunately most are at the west end of street, or facing the south side, but they give a flavour of the district. Nothing for Clopton Street.
Added: I don't think these addresses work directly.
Put the street address in "Any text" and category "Photo"
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THANK YOU
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The Tourist Historian has quite a few pictures on his facebook site and instagram. Very interesting.
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I recall reading about the pub last year - have driven and walked past it on many occasions. Hopefully Gary Neville and his wrecking ball have nothing to do with its regeneration.
A historic pub in Hulme will be brought back to its former glory and become a social hub for music and culture again after a regeneration scheme has been approved.
Junction Hotel on Rolls Crescent will be brought back into use as a community hub following its closure in 2016 and be joined by a four-storey apartment block next door. The block, which will contain 24 one and two-bed apartments, will also have commercial space on the bottom floor.
The hotel itself, thought to date back to around 1865, would be restored under the scheme and extended with two apartments on both the first and second floors.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/incredible-images-show-plans-bring-28276604
Barbara
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Thanks Barbara for sharing that.
I have read some of that.
The pub has always been an area of interest in our family. My cousins and I remember hearing our great uncle talk about it. He spent about a year and a half in Manchester when he was about 15. He mentioned that people would drop change when in the pub and not bend over to pick it up, but he said he wasn't too proud to bend over and pick it up!
Elaine
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I meant to include that in the 1901 census for the Grand Junction Inn there is:
Edwin Grange, nephew, 14, scholar, born USA
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Hi Alan, Yep, that's my great uncle, Edwin, or Uncle Ted, as we called him. I wish I had heard more of the stories he had from his time in Manchester.
Also, it finally occurred to me, that possibly the area we now know as Royal Livery Stables started out as a bare lot or lots and then the name finally became to be a while after. Does that make sense?
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Alan, any thoughts on where my great uncle, Edwin, might have gone to school when he was in Manchester. I think he came over Dec 1899 and back to USA in 1902. Have not found travel over, but SSG's brother, Edwin, came over in Nov, 1899, and the local paper said he went back to UK in Dec 1899. So I "assume" my Uncle Ted came over with his uncle, Edwin.
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The earliest map (1848) was linked to by MollyC in reply #14. It’s clear that there is a different building(s) on the corner, and a lot of space around it, so yes, there were lots of changes in the area over the next few decades.
As far as school records for Edwin Grange are concerned, I had a quick look and found nothing. I think your best bet would be to post a new query about this on a specific board, and then you might get a response from an expert on such matters.
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There are many schools listed in the 1895 directory from frame 220 onwards:
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/152629/rec/9
(British Schools were non-conformist and National Schools were Church of England)
The 1888 OS map shows a school a short distance to the SE of the Grand Junction on Upper Jackson Street. It was a Board School set up under the Education Act 1870 whch introduced compulsory schooling. However these schools only took pupils up to about age 13. If the family could afford it he may well have attended a private school, of which the most prestigious is the Manchester Grammar School for Boys. I think you should follow Alan's suggestion.
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Thanks Molly and Alan
Samuel Skaife Grange and his brother, Ed, attended Merchants College in Blackpool. I have what I think is their school picture. But that seemed to have closed long before "Uncle Ted" came over.
When I first asked about the stables, I thought it might have been the original site of Grange Junction before it was built. And now I find it was another business.
Again, thanks for your time and research links.
Elaine