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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: brigidmac on Thursday 02 May 24 19:55 BST (UK)
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Can anyone identify the mother's name . For Francess Mansfield
I've looked at SP and can find no corresponding births but maybe I could look under mothers maiden name
Fathers profession could be corporal something
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Hi
Could it be Agnes Mansfield….
Regards
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Yes that's the married name but what is her maiden surname?
It looks like Indus to me
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Corporal 47/147? th Foot
It does look like Indus. Can you compare the first letter with other capital letters on the page?
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How old was Frances when she married, please?
Her father was a Corporal in the 47th Foot. The regiment spent time in Canada in the 1860s.
Nell
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Yes that's the married name but what is her maiden surname?
It looks like Indus to me
Could it be Innes
Rosie
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I tried to include more but attachment was too big Francess was age 17
Future census all state she was born in Perth
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Brides name has been transcribed as Francesco
On subsequent censuses the couple seem to be using surname Beggs rather than McCormick
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I've just checked a death registration for Frances McCormick who was the widow of John Beggs McCormick.
The parents' names are completely different:
Niven Mansfield (soldier) and Frances Mansfield mms Galloway
???
Nell
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Oh that's interesting I've come across a Niven before
There are no marriages in Scotland for an Alexander
& No Perth births
In fact there aren't many Mansfield s at all between 1841-1861
It's a very precise detail about the regiment
I suppose what she knows at wedding is more reliable than a death certificate where the informant probably did not know the parents of deceased
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Rosie I don't think it's Innes as there is an upward stroke in middle
No capital I on page to compare it looks a bit like the S on seaman
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Hi,
I think I would suggest asking Scotland’s People for assistance, in reading the page, they will probably rescan. This may make everything clear.
Looking at the page it is fairly clear that the name entered is Francesco, and this is what it is indexed under.
Have you looked at Maria Mansfield, born in Perth in 1857, Mansfield seems a fairly unusual surname, this may be her, or a sibling.
I would not be too concerned about the death certificate, names could be flexible, especially in the Army. He was dead by the time she married, and so the informant may have got it wrong. Who were they?
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The informant was her daughter Annie, now married to Reid.
John and Frances had a son named Niven John McCormick in 1877, but he died in 1879.
Nell
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The birth for Maria Mansfield 1857 Perth has parents as
James Mansfield
Lillias Duncan
So different Mansfield
Rosie
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What date was Francess death please ? I wonder why they changed surname sometimes .
Annie Begg born Glasgow is the daughter is the line through whom the DNA connection occurs
Her son was James Mansfield REID
b 1902 Harrogate England
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Thanks Rosie I ve run out of credits on SP .
Ancestry has some of the census BMD
But not the originals
INDUS. Doesn't seem to be a Scottish surname
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Frances died of bronchitis 16 January 1917 at 149 Graeme Street Glasgow. Her daughter Annie gave her own address as 14 Errol Street.
Nell
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The n in “Indus” is similar to the n in and. Could the word be _ _ _ns. Could the d actually be a different letter with a “dot” hovering near/above it?
My Vaus records are often transcribed as Vans. n and u can be mistaken. :-\
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Thanks for the information Nell
I can't remember where I saw Niven before except in the toddlers death
Thanks for the idea Lisa
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Is the name 'Irans' or 'Irons'?
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It does look like Indus.
I see Indus too!
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Is there any way it could start with M? Looking at m.s. and McCormick?
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As mentioned before I would contact S P and see if they can help
I did notice that Frances had a daughter Esther ( McGennis ) Beggs but not seeing anything so far ???
Rosie
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John is right it looks like the M in M/S
Maiden Surname
So could be followed by cl....?
How do I go about requesting a clearer copy from SP. ?
I think.Mcgennis was Esther's married name as she has a child with that surname
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John is right it looks like the M in M/S
Maiden Surname
So could be followed by cl....?
How do I go about requesting a clearer copy from SP. ?
On Scotland's People scroll down to bottom of page and click on contact us just click on that and fill in the form requesting a clear image on mothers maiden name
Rosie
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Thank you Rosie I've done that now
Although Francess states birthplace as Perth on all the Glasgow census her birth year varies between 1851 and 1861
I believe the most likely is 1858 ...I dont see why she would lie on marriage unless she was younger than 17.
may have been born in England...or Ireland as there are DNA and paper links to other Mansfield s ?.
Or Canada if the regiment for her father is correct .
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Yes it's a pity we can't find her before the 1881 census tried looking for the father Alexander Mansfield on Military records but no luck either
Rosie
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Hi, sorry, it’s obvious when you know!
Go to the certificate in question.
Above the certificate, there is a “Report an issue” button, select that and put in that you are finding it hard to read the mother’s maiden name. If you use the “Report an issue, it pre-fills record entry data. Sometimes they will just read it for you from the original, but more usually, they rescan and send an updated copy to you. It then gets updated for everyone else, but that can take a while.
I also make a point of correcting indexes where someone has misread a name, I have come across some pretty strange misreadings, but some can be understood as the people doing the later transcriptions were not Scot’s.
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I’ve not reread all of the postings so apologies if the answers can be found in them…
What documents have you found for Frances, please? Two Ancestry trees have 1881-1901 census transcriptions (no original documents); death unknown. Have you found any documents for just Frances (not her children) other than the above census returns and the marriage document? Is there a possibility that the 1881-1901 returns are for a different Frances and John?
The family trees state Frances’ parents were Niven Mansfield and Frances Galloway. Supposedly, Frances’ parents were deceased at the time of her marriage. Is there a possibility that her parents died when Frances was young and a family member (Niven) raised her?
In 1881, John and Frances were living with Ann Duffy, a relative. Have you researched Ann to find out her connection to John and Frances?
I’ve seen records for Irish births where forenames were written in Latin. After a brief search, I haven’t found the Latin word for Frances. Was Francesco a name that was known in Scotland? If not, was she (and her parent/parents) possibly not Scottish?
Have you researched Niven Mansfield?
I don’t have access to Scottish records (nor knowledge about them) so I can’t help, but your puzzle is quite intriguing.
Hopefully, the clearer image will help.
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There doesn't appear to be any records on S P for Niven Mansfield or a Frances Galloway
I think the person who registered the death of Frances Mansfield 1917 was not sure of her parents .I would say the parents mentioned on her marriage certificate are the correct ones .No luck finding Frances on 1861/1871 census records
Rosie
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To answer Lisa
The originals I have seen are the marriage ...waiting for clearer version
And the 1891 John is a ship fireman born Ireland age 36
Francess born Perth age 30
Annie 12 Esther 10 John 6 all born Lanarkshire
Living at 14 school wynd
All people on page at same address
The sco on her name at marriage is
actually a double ss I think
Nothing in scotland for Frances alone
I've looked for a Niven & Alexander Mansfield with no success
No evidence of a mother Agnes either
Yes I will see if I can work out Ann Duffy's relationship
Added * she's not the one with maiden name Forbes Husband hugh
She could be a single mother I suppose
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Just a thought, both her parents were dead by the time she married. She may not have known where she was born. With a quick look, the 47th Foot were nowhere near Perth at the relevant time.
Have you found her in the 1911 census?
She will have filled that in herself , I have seen some changes in place of birth, husbands going close enough, then the wife making it more accurate after his death!
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Is the name 'Irans' or 'Irons'?
Probably no connection with your Frances and John, but I thought the following was interesting, given the above suggestion…
1881 Glasgow Anderston census - possibly your Beggs couple?
Ann Duffy, age 33, born Ireland and Hugh Duffy, age 6. In the same household, recorded as other relatives:
“Francies Biggs”, born c1858, Perth
John Biggs, age 29
Annie Biggs, age 2
1861 Glasgow census - possibly the same Ann?
Ann Duffy, age 18, born c1843, Ireland
(Father) John Duffy, age 48
(Mother) “Agne Iran Duffy”, age 40
Jennes, age 21
John, age 15
Elizabeth, age 13
After a quick search, I could not find John and Agne Iran Duffy in 1871.
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The children in that 1861 Duffy family were all born Ireland looks like Agnes her husband and eldest son were stonemasons
I think Jennes may be mistranscription of James .
You could be onto something here Lisa
Frances Mansfield could be a step sister of Ann Duffy if the latter was a single mother of Hugh
An alternative is that Ann DUFFYs maiden name was Collins
I LL get some more SP credits to check the original of Iran
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The children in that 1861 Duffy family were all born Ireland looks like Agnes her husband and eldest son were stonemasons
I think Jennes may be mistranscription of James .
You could be onto something here Lisa
Frances Mansfield could be a step sister of Ann Duffy if the latter was a single mother of Hugh
An alternative is that Ann DUFFYs maiden name was Collins
I’ll get some more SP credits to check the original of Iran
Just popping in for a moment (middle of the night here)…or possibly wait for the better marriage image?
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The 1861 entry mother's name is Ann jean DUFFY but it looks like ' " "iron ".
Eldest son as I thought was James
The younger children including Ann Duffy are on 2nd page so it cost 12 credits
I think I should follow known links first
Yes the Niven connection I had only seen on a family tree so there is no confirmation
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Regarding John and Francess BEGG being same couple in 1881 + 1891
Children s births were registered as McCormick from 1879-1887 with mothers maiden name as MANSFIELD
Annie 1879 Esther 1881 John 1884
Eliza beggs 1887 all MCCORMICK
I haven't found baby Nivens birth or death
1877-1879 (* THANKS ROSIE for finding)
Or the children born after 1900 Francess Andrew + Martha .
* (Also found now )
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Baby Niven birth
Niven John McCormick 1877 Anderston mothers maiden name Mansfield
Death
Niven John McCormick 1879 Anderston mothers maiden name Mansfield
Scotland People
Rosie
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Thanks Rosie
I changed parameters and also got
Frances Begg McCormick 1890
& Andrew Bustard MCCORMICK 1894 with mothers maiden name MANSFIELD
& Martha Beggs MCCORMICK 1895
mothers maiden name not given
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Children's deaths were also recorded as Frances Beggs MCCORMICK age 0 1891
Eliza beggs McCormick age 4 1892
Andrew Bustard MCCORMICK used middle name Beggs on marriage.
But that's not getting me nearer solving the mystery of their mother's origins
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Yes it's a bit frustrating not finding any of the family before 1881 .Hopefully you will get word from Scotlandspeople soon ;)
Rosie
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Hi,
It seems possible that Frances MANSFIELD was born in India, if this is her?
24 October 1874
The Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser
Police Intelligence
Regards,
Daisy
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Daisy, that is a great find ;)
Monica
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It would explain why no births of that age in Scotland + is consistent with being a soldiers child
Also soldier father could explain Aldershot MANSFIELD connections
I wonder if the young man in question was John Beggs McCormick.
I'm trying to connect to another MANSFIELD whose birth I can't find
I wonder if George Daniel could be a sibling or half sibling . His marriage contains fictitious names
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=882270.msg7551238#msg7551238
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I saw some of that article on FindMyPast Freeview about Indian born Frances
Was that the full article ?.
If she'd been sent to prison there would be a record.
I didnt find her birth
I wonder if she would be called Fanny in some records .
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I checked census records under that name only 2 in Scotland born in India but wrong surname .Same on the 1871 census records in England there is a possibility if she was born in India she might not have been in U K till after 1871 ???
I would think there would be a court record somewhere of the case did check prison records on S P but nothing .She might have just paid the fine ?
Rosie
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Hi,
Yes, that was the full article that I found.
Daisy
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Thanks Daisy saved me paying a 1 off fee to view .
& thanks for searching Rosie
I did look for John Beggs McCormick in newspapers & court records in case her future husband was her young partner in crime
Might explain why he used his mother's maiden name in 1881 if he was " wanted " .
I agree Rosie that she was probably not in UK in 1871 news report says she was new to Glasgow
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What about Indoe also known as McIndoe as mother's maiden name I. Original post .
There is an Agnes McIndoe born 1828 in Ayrshire which is right age range.
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Possibility for Agnes McIndoe on the 1861 census
Kilmarnock Ayrshire with her husband David Houston
Rosie
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Have received the rescanned document
Mother's name clearer ; Indus
And Frances profession is clearly brokers shopkeeper
Witnesses names Maggie Eggan
& David Roberts
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That is a better image but not making it any easier finding the mother ??? of Frances
Rosie
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Have received a message from descendant of Esther mcguinness
Who says on Esther's birth marriage & death certificates mother's first name is Francesco