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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: glendan561 on Tuesday 30 April 24 03:12 BST (UK)
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Are there crew lists for the above vessel. I'm specifically looking for a Hector McKenzie McNeil.
Many thanks in advance.
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Hello
Can you please give a little more refinement to your request. Plus what you know to date.
A quick delve into our past suggests to me that there were possibly at least two vessels serving the NZ ports with the name SS TRIUMPH. One in the 1860's and then the one in the 1880's that shipped cargo between UK and NZ ports.
In November 1883 it went aground in the Hauraki Gulf, not far Tiri Tiri Island, when leaving the port of Auckland, and was eventually abandoned as a wreck. Only some of the railway rails destined for other NZ ports, were salvaged. Some 200 immigrants disembarked at Auckland.
Alan.
PS It's quite a while since I was last looking up LLoyds Register for info re ships leaving UK ports, but that direction would possibly be best for finding any records of Master and crew on vessels leaving the UK ports.
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for your prompt response. I believe it is the latter ship and I might be heading down a rabbit hole with this. I have no concrete proof the seaman in question was a crew member. All I have is a vague entry in the admissions register at the Canterbury Women’s Refuge in Gordon Street, Christchurch.
Glenda
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Hi,
You might interested in this website:
CLIP - the Crew List Index Project.
https://www.crewlist.org.uk/
Here is a description of the SS Triumph of 1883:
Star, 10 October 1883, page 3
SHIPPING NOTES.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t58/
Evening Post, 30 November 1883, Page 3
THE S.S. TRIUMPH AGROUND.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t59/
Regards,
Spades
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A brief description of the cause of the wreck and history of the area.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/tiritiri-matangi-you-light-up-my-life/HDNTNRRKW2RAQIHJJHCE5B7SYU/
Spades
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... I believe it is the latter ship and I might be heading down a rabbit hole with this. I have no concrete proof the seaman in question was a crew member. All I have is a vague entry in the admissions register at the Canterbury Women’s Refuge in Gordon Street, Christchurch.
Glenda
Hi Glenda
Can you explain further please - or give us a reference regarding the "admissions register at Canterbury Women's Refuge, Christchurch" and how this specifically ties in with the man you are seeking (Hector McKenzie McNEIL).
~ Lu
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On admission to Gordon Street, Margaret Alice was asked about the baby's father. She stated the father was Hector McNeil, a seaman from SS Triumph. She attended Gordon Street in September 1887, her son, named Albert Hector was born later the same month. She remained at Gordon Street until early 1888.
Hector McNeil (Snr) was a carpenter who lived in Invercargill however, I don't believe he was the father of this particular baby however, Margaret Alice did work for Hector McNeil from April 1884 and she had her first child, Annie, in May 1885 in Lumsden. Unfortunately, she only survived 49 days. He might have been Annie's father but it's doubtful he was the father of Albert Hector. She left Lumsden in approximately 1885 and I can't locate her until Gordon Street in September 1887.
Hector also had a son, Hector McKenzie McNeil who was about 17 when Margaret Alice arrived in Invercargill. So, there are two males, father and son, who could have been the father of her first child. No name has been recorded on either birth registration.
Hector McKenzie McNeil left NZ and the next time I can locate him is when he's living in Melbourne, Australia. I can't find him on any passenger manifest despite working my way through PROV. Working as a seaman he would have had an opportunity to start over in a place nobody knew him. Hector jar died in Melbourne in 1917, two years after his father and Margaret Alice died in tragic circumstances in 1891 in Christchurch, leaving behind her four year old son.
Many thanks for all assistance.
Glenda
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Thanks Glenda ... that's all good information (and I see it connects to your earlier HAWORTH thread).
* Can you please also supply the actual link to the Admission Record (Canterbury Refuge) ?
[Haven't been able to locate it at NZ Archives).
~ Lu
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The Gordon Street document was obtained via Archives NZ. The quality of print is poor and I don't have the authority to reproduce it.
Glenda
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Just getting back to the vessel s.s. "Triumph" ...
* Have you looked through the listings at "Mariners in Australian Waters" ???
[ I couldn't find a "McNEIL" + "Triumph" connection : ]
* Have you checked PapersPast (NZ) for the time frame say, 1886 - 1887 ? There are a lot of references to the vessel ss "Triumph" and its comings and goings. It seemed mainly to operate between NZ and Australian ports (though did see a reference to it having arrived from Calcutta).
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Yes, I've checked Papers Past and found the references to the ship however, no items regarding Hector McKenzie McNeil.
Glenda
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Hector McKenzie McNEIL :
You will no doubt have read the Will of Hector McNeil (senior) who died in 1915 ?
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE60132106
Hector's Will was written on 10 September 1914 leaving a good portion of his estate to his (spinster) housekeeper.
The remainder of his estate was bequeathed to Christina McNEIL ("my daughter-in-law") in the hope that she would provide for both herself and her husband, Hector McKenzie McNEIL, a retired Business Manager ... (+ VIC address given).
[-Business manager seems rather a big step upward from having been a seaman ... although there are a few decades in between ??? ]
~ Lu
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Ship: "Titus" - from Melbourne to Sydney - arrival 4/4/1894
Amongst Crew : Hector McNEIL - 27 years - Native place = Invercargill - Donkeyman/Trimmer
[Source: NSW unassisted arrivals - passenger lists ]
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Wow! Okay so I guess that's a very real possibility of being the Hector McNeil I'm trying to tie down. I did wonder if he was the father of Margaret Alice's daughter, Annie who was born in 1885. I know he was batting with the other team but I daresay 18 year old males are the same today as they were in the 19th century.
Thank you for finding that information.
Glenda
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Margaret had a strong Lancashire accent - in the Gordon Street book they have recorded his name as Acton McNeil and I think Triumph might have been their interpretation of Titus.
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The Gordon Street document was obtained via Archives NZ. The quality of print is poor and I don't have the authority to reproduce it.
Glenda
Hello again.
If the item in question is held in the NZ Archives the "R plus 8 digit numbers" that was involved in looking it up, or ordering a copy, will lead other researchers to it's listing, and possibly other documents associated with it. Eg who assigned it to the archive, and what other documents of that era were assigned also. There are also restore specialists, who can use their computers to great effect, when it comes to legibility.
Alan.
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Hi Glenda
That "Titus" 1894 shipping info I posted, was because it gave details of a McNEIL seaman which closely matched the son of Hector McNEIL senior (eg the sailor's age/ year and place of birth).
I didn't necessarily think that "Titus" was similar to "Triumph". ;D
The s.s."Triumph" we already know was in NZ waters and visiting NZ ports during 1886- 1887.
Unsure - (haven't yet looked) - to see if "Titus" was here. ("H. McNEIL" was on that vessel in 1894 ... well after the birth of Albert Hector. )
I have a couple of other references also for this sailor ... will post here shortly.
~ Lu
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I don’t think he was Albert Hector’s father.she didn’t disclose a father on either birth registration. I suppose she did that for a reason or she truly didn’t know who the fathers were. Some family members believe she was working the streets in Christchurch while the dubious Mrs Williams looked after Albert.
Glenda
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I don’t think he was Albert Hector’s father.she didn’t disclose a father on either birth registration. I suppose she did that for a reason or she truly didn’t know who the fathers were. Some family members believe she was working the streets in Christchurch while the dubious Mrs Williams looked after Albert.
Glenda
So why have you said earlier that "On admission to Gordon Street [in 1887 ].... [when asked] ... "she stated that the father was Hector McNEIL, a seaman from SS Triumph" ??? See below > >
On admission to Gordon Street, Margaret Alice was asked about the baby's father. She stated the father was Hector McNeil, a seaman from SS Triumph.
She attended Gordon Street in September 1887, her son, named Albert Hector was born later the same month. She remained at Gordon Street until early 1888.
Glenda
* Do you have a copy (printout) of the birth record for Albert Hector HOWARTH ??
(b. 30/09/1887)
* Where did the birth actually take place ?
* Who was the informant to the birth - details please ?
* Details that were provided about the mother (Margaret Alice) ? (Age / birthplace etc)
~ Lu
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Albert was born in Christchurch at the Canterbury Women’s Refuge. Margaret Alice was apparently 23 years of age, although she was 23 when she had Annie as well.The first informant was H P Brake, Authorised agent. Address was Linwood, although this could well be Gordon Street. Father is described as Not Recorded. The registration I have is a Data Printout from NZ BDM. Registration No. is 1887/11265.
Other than Lancashire being recorded as MA’s place of birth all other information is blank; no address or occupation.
Glenda