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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: lynellen on Thursday 25 April 24 09:33 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me track down a marriage between Alice Elizabeth Scrace and William Webb. The most likely place is Tunbridge Wells.
Alice was born in Frant in 1856 and died in Tunbridge 1942. Her parents were Henry Scrace and Frances Huggins.
William Webb was born in Braughing, Hertfordshire in 1854 and died in Tunbridge in 1906. His parents were Samuel Webb and Ann Matilda Miles.
Alice and William's 1st child was born in Tunbridge in 1881.
I cannot find a marriage record for them and the misspelling of Scrace in a lot of the documents is making it even harder to find.
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I know you’re asking about a marriage but do you have Alice’s birth certificate - I ask as it’s registered as being in Ticehurst Sussex, not Kent though there is a suggestion of there being a bit of boundary flexibility in that area. Why do you think they were married at Tunbridge Wells?
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I know you’re asking about a marriage but do you have Alice’s birth certificate - I ask as it’s registered as being in Ticehurst Sussex, not Kent though there is a suggestion of there being a bit of boundary flexibility in that area. Why do you think they were married at Tunbridge Wells?
Frant is in the Ticehurst reg district.
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Hi,
It looks like the Scrace family were living in Tunbridge Wells by 1861, although the census is confusing because is states town of Tonbridge, parish of Frant, the address given I think reads Rumber Street, Frant Reach.
So I think you're correct there does seem to be alot of boundary flex between Ticehurst / Frant / Tunbridge Wells.
By 1871 the family are on the census in Town of Tunbridge Wells, parish of Tunbridge Wells, address looks like Balti Street.
The 1881 census gives Alice as married to William Webb, living in Tunbridge in Garden Street.
I have searched every area for their marriage, but just can't find it.......
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It's possible that they never married for whatever reason.
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From all the other info I've found so far on both Alice's and William's siblings, they would be unusual in their families not to have married, but I suppose it is possible. The other possibility is that Alice was previously married and widowed by the time she married William at the ago of 25. But again I haven't found any record of her marrying anyone else.
It's very frustrating!
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Or William could have been previously married and left his wife, therefore he couldn't marry otherwise it would be bigamy.
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I haven't found a likely earlier marriage for William in Ware (where he was in 1871) but there's 10 years before his next sighting in Tonbridge, and a lot of miles in between.
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Yes, I agree, a lot can happen in 10 years and as you say there is no record of him between 1871 and 1881. It's very frustrating, but guess I'm going to have to accept that they probably never actually married.
Here's another Webb anomaly that you might be able to help me solve;
Jimmie Webb born 25 July 1915 (according to my grandmother's birthday book). The only official record I have found of him is on the 1921 census living with my great grandmother, alice Elizabeth Webb in Tunbridge Wells. The census confirms his birth of 1915 and says he was born in Hove and that he was Alice's grandson.
The family rumour was he was the illigitimate son of one of Alice's daughters, but no-one knew for sure which one.
He was only ever known as Jimmie Webb and he and my dad were very close. Sadly none of the older members of the family are left to ask questions of, so he remains a mystery and another one of the ones I haven't managed to track down.
I found a Jim A Webb born 1915 in Marylebone MMN Webb on ancestry, but when I tried to obtain the birth certificate on the GRO I couldn't find the listing. It's very strange, as it was on the transcript, but there doesn't appear to be any record at the GRO.
If you can solve this I would be in awe!
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You should always search using just first names if you can't find a registration. The old indexing covered all surnames recorded on the registration, the new indexing doesn't.
Births Mar 1915
ANDREWS, Jim A (WEBB)
Marylebone 1a 939
WEBB, Jim A (WEBB)
Marylebone 1a 939
ANDREWS, JIM ANDREW (WEBB)
GRO Reference: 1915 M Quarter in ST. MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 939
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
Perhaps only the mother is named and she is ANDREWS formerly WEBB. You would need to see the cert.
Debra :)
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If Grandma had the birthday right, Jimmie's birth should have been registered Quarter 3 1915. As to mother I would suspect the daughter with the family in 1921, she didn't marry until 1918.
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Thank you Debra, I've now located this on the GRO and have ordered a certificate. Hopefully that will either eliminate or confirm it's the correct Jimmie Webb.
Thank you also Lizzie for all your help and suggestions. Not sure The Jim A Andrews is the right one as the 1921 census states he was born in Hove, not Marylebone, but I guess the census details aren't always accurate......
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A census record is only as good as the informant (Head of Household) knows. In 1921 (as in 1911) we are seeing the form the householder actually filled in, so we don't have the problem of any enumerator transcription errors. Of course, Alice snr might have though he was born in Hove but not asked the child's mother. When Jimmie was born, Hove would have been in the Steyning registration district.
Jimmie could have been a nickname, short for James, or his middle name could have been James, or his real name could be something unrelated to either Jimmie or James. (My OH says his father called him Charley when he was a child - he has three forenames, none remotely like Charles or Charley !)
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Curiously I can find a James Webb in correct quarter in Steyning mmn Shufflebotham. Can't find a likely marriage to fit in that area though.
could one of the son's be the father and died before 1921 and so did his wife? and grandma took care of Jimmie.
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Do you know when Jim/Jimmie died approx.
SS
added, was it in 1969?
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Curiously I can find a James Webb in correct quarter in Steyning mmn Shufflebotham. Can't find a likely marriage to fit in that area though.
could one of the son's be the father and died before 1921 and so did his wife? and grandma took care of Jimmie.
Or one of the daughters had a relationship with a Mr Shufflebotham and switched the surnames round when the birth was registered
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Hi Lizzie
Thanks to you pointing me at Steyning, I found his birth and got the certificate from GRO. The birth date 25th July 1915 matches what is in my Grandmothers birth book. It gives father as James Webb, Mother Lucy Mary Webb mn Shufflebotham.
I believe this is Lucy Mary Webb, daughter of Alice, born 1898. I now think she was sent off to her elder sister Francis in Hove to have the illigitimate baby James and she lied about being married and having a maiden name.
My guess is the father was a lad called James something or other and he was a driver in the South Lancashire regiment (as the birth certificate claims) he was not present when James (Jimmie) was registered.
I have trawled through all the sites I belong to and cannot find a Lucy Mary Shufflebotham anywhere. No birth, No marriage and no death.
This would fit with the family rumour that Lucy was Jimmie's mother.
Can't see a way to find who his real father was though.
Don't know when or where he died as the last record I can find is 1921 aged 6. I would love to find anything on him after that date........
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Thanks to SS I now have his death in second quarter of 1969 in Tonbridge. Will get cert. from GRO tomorrow.
You've all been so helpful and have solved a few family mysteries for me. Thank you
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I think with the clues that Lucy gave, the father of James is possibly James Shufflebotham. There is one or more of the same name in the regiment you mention. Although being able to verify it would be difficult.
Just my thoughts
Cas
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Thank you Cas. The simplest explanation is usually the best one. I was just thinking Lucy made up the name Shufflebotham.....
I'm guess that if James was really in the regiment, and I see no reason for her to have invented that, then he must have been close to Tunbridge in 1914 as that's where Lucy was living with her Mother.
It's another avanue to explore.....
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As Cas has mentioned there are several James Shufflebotham's with military records. One in particular stands out for me. Service number 706028--Driver- Royal Field Artillery. If you have a sub for Findmypast 3 records are shown. The link below also has a picture of him. Also his full military record is available from the National Archives at a cost of £3.50--link attached--this may hold some usefuldetails.
SS
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FLIVES%2F4025134
(Click on view original record)
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5148943
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https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBM%2FLIVES%2F4025134
(Click on view original record)
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5148943
The FindMyPast link is to a photo of him!
Is there a photo of Jimmie to compare?
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The National Archive link is free if you sign in for free account
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Thank you again for all the help and links. James Webb (Jimmie's) birth certificate states;
Father James Webb (so we believe really James Shufflebotham)
Private
South Lancashire Regiment
Motor car driver
Just found this;
1/4th Battalion Territorial Force
04.08.1914 Stationed at Warrington, Cheshire as part of the South Lancs. Brigade of the West Lancs. Division.
13.08.1914 Moved to Dunfermline and then Tunbridge Wells.
Feb 1915 Mobilised for war leaving the Division and landing at Havre.
Jimmie's Mother Lucy Mary was living with her mother Alice in Tunbridge Wells. Jimmie was born July 1915, so was conceived around October 1914. It fits!
Just need to find James Shufflebotham in that battalion of the South Lancs Reg.
Golly I could never have found any of this without all your help
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A possible fit.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FICRC%2FC_G1_E_04_01_0089%2F0027&parentid=GBM%2FICRC%2FR%2F296561
SS
If the above record is a possible then these are the details of this James. Born Skelmersdale
SHUFFLEBOTHAM, JAMES DALEY
GRO Reference: 1895 D Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 838
Skelmersdale comes under Ormskirk Reg District
Appears with parents Thomas and Mary Jane on 1901/11 census and in 1921 census as a private in the Army. On all 3 census born Skelmersdale.
SS
added, the address on the FindMyPast record of 72 Gartons Lane is the home of his father Thomas in 1921
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SS, Yes that could be him, but I've now found two others.......
The one you have found was a POW, taken at Epsny 30.11.1917. rank PTE no. 141682 B Comp. South Lancs. Born 7 Oct 1895 Skelmersdale
Could very well be him.
Also could be;
James Shufflebotham, soldier no. 70201 5th S.Lancs, service no 4138
James Shufflebotham, soldier no. 241683, 5th, b.comp S.Lancs. POW 30.11.1917 born Skerber (?) Lancs. home address Clock Fall, Skerber, Lancs.
I'm not sure if the POW's are one in the same chap, or just coincidence that both in same regiment and both taken POW on same day in same battle.
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Believe 141682 & 241683 are the same man
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Other image
ss
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That's helpful, one less to research.... Thank you