RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: brigidmac on Friday 19 April 24 22:54 BST (UK)
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Not something I've looked at much before .
So a few questions are coming up
& I'm finding it hard to find court transcripts & articles about the case .
First question is about Aliases : is there any convention about which name is given first
I think it's the one arrested under and previous names go back in time so the last one listed most likely to be the original name .
I
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My other question is when place of release destination is given what does
SGCM London mean ?
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Could it be the Saint Giles Christian Mission (SGCM)?
"In 1877, what was known as Prison Gate work was started. The Mission set up huts outside Holloway, Pentonville and Wandsworth Prisons where newly discharged prisoners were offered breakfast and assistance often in the form of travel money to get home, clothing, and assistance with employment, as well as encouragement to take the temperance pledge.
Work among first time offenders continued with the opening of a series of hostels and homes between 1880's and 1900. These catered for young offenders who were encouraged and supported to find work or enter the armed services".
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Thank you it's very interesting
Some of the criminals on same page were discharged to RSADP London
Which was probably something similar
The lady I'm investigating was discharged to her mother's address which makes it easier to confirm it's the same person ..despite different names the final conviction gives her other aliases and number of previous convictions
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RSADP here in a previous thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=838851.0 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=838851.0)
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First question is about Aliases : is there any convention about which name is given first
Recent convention is that whatever name the person first gets dealt with under becomes their "file name" and doesn't change.....any other name they later come to notice under is an alias.
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I'd like to be able to read the court records
+ Wonder how 2 larcenys became a felony .
I have a thread which is on the Irish forum at the moment because the baby was born in Ireland
But the couple I'm looking at are
Alice Barrow 1866 Lancashire
&
Her husband George Daniel Mansfield B 1865 but that might not be his real name
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Here is the other thread with quite a bit of information re court appearances that might help others.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=882066.0
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You beat me to it Heywood I was just copying the link .
It's reply 48 that is of interest.
We now know Alice Barrows origins and her convictions
+ Even her physical description
But George MANSFIELD is elusive
I know what became of their daughter Frances Gertrude MANSFIELD & her children with first husband
But don't know what became of the daughter she had with John DAVIES
I'm trying to look for more details about these convictions
I have access to ancestry
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In reply #28 on your other thread I mention a potential marriage for Minnie Davies.
Best not to continue that on here though and detract from the criminal records so will post on your other thread.
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Looks like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. :o Report from July 1861. Lots of witness accounts about this unsavory crime in Kent newspapers July and August.
One in-depth report, in particular, is in the Chatham News (13 July 1861). It's quite grisly!
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Oh dear that's terrible the couple only got married in June 1861.
But widowed Amelia was entrusted to care for her daughters ('Alice/Frances ) child 30 years later !
So far I haven't found records of what larceny or felony was committed by Alice Frances Barrow/Mansfield/Davies
+ No evidence of the existence of George Daniel Mansfield
Apart from a birth record for their child a marriage & a crime
I'd love to be able to access newspapers
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Maybe the 1861 crime is what led to the Barrow couple moving up north. From the in-depth report I read (with witness accounts) I would consider Amelia "hardcore". I wouldn't read the 1861 reports if you've just eaten. :o Their dead baby was found in a horrible state.
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So far I haven't found records of what larceny or felony was committed by Alice Frances Barrow/Mansfield/Davies
+ No evidence of the existence of George Daniel Mansfield
Apart from a birth record for their child a marriage & a crime
I'd love to be able to access newspapers
I can only access snippets but haven’t seen anything in newspapers. There is lots of information re her crimes on:
UK, Calendar of Prisoners, 1868-1929
Registers of Habitual Criminals and Police Gazettes, 1834-1934
I thought you had quoted from the last one - Police Gazettes
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There's also an 1884 criminal record for Alice Barrow (no aliases). It references 1879 and 1880 for her previous crimes, as well.
Verdict: Pleaded guilty of felony, to wit, larceny, after previous conviction for felony.
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1895 - Habitual Criminals and Police Gazettes - summary
Frances Davies alias Mansfield and Alice Barrow
‘Scar centre forehead, bridge nose, left temple, right cheek-bone, eyebrow and each corner bottom lip.’
6 previous convictions.
Her description sounds as though she has been beaten.
In 1891 she had a scar on the back of her hand and a mention of 11 convictions though.
Seems to have started in 1880 and she was sent to Mount Vernon reformatory for 5 yrs for Larceny.
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Liverpool Weekly Courier, 25 October 1884
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Her description sounds as though she has been beaten.
Well, maybe mum Amelia was responsible...
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id seen the description of Alice + crimes of larceny + felony but not what shed stolen or who the crimes were against .
like ashton I too wondered if the couple had moved away from chatham kent to escape disgrace .
i wonder what brought "george daniel mansfield " to west derby lancashire + why the couple chose to have baby in Ireland .
he's a real mystery.
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Young Alice was aptly named (Barrow). She gave Bonnie & Clyde (Barrow) a run for their money!
Liverpool Shipping Telegraph and Daily Commercial Advertiser
07 April 1880
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Blimey! Alice was on a roll in 1880. She certainly worked all the angles!
Liverpool Albion
28 August 1880
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Thank you for pm
I can now access the free newspapers
View which are on FindMyPast
& Now understand the note on criminal record about 14 days & 5 years
Alice was remanded in prison for 14 days before being sent to reformatory
School
She committed the crime in August of stealing opera glasses and other articles 1880
according to another newspaper her accomplice was Edward George JONES who was sentenced to hard labour
The fact that she ran away from Liverpool to London & Chatham
Suggests she may still have had relatives there
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Yes, Edward George Jones in 1880. I didn’t see he was bracketed with Alice Barrow - sorry.
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Could it be the Saint Giles Christian Mission (SGCM)?
"In 1877, what was known as Prison Gate work was started. The Mission set up huts outside Holloway, Pentonville and Wandsworth Prisons where newly discharged prisoners were offered breakfast and assistance often in the form of travel money to get home, clothing, and assistance with employment, as well as encouragement to take the temperance pledge.
Work among first time offenders continued with the opening of a series of hostels and homes between 1880's and 1900. These catered for young offenders who were encouraged and supported to find work or enter the armed services".
Hi Ashtone - that answers one of my questions before I asked it! Edward Vine was discharged to SGCM London on 6 July 1892. The only odd thing is that he was serving his sentence in Portsmouth, not one of the London prisons. But the family's roots were in Shoreditch, so it makes sense that he was returned to London on release.
But another question - his brother Harry (recorded as Henry) Vine was discharged from Cold Bath Fields Prison on 23 Jan 1881 to 40 Ely Place, Hoxton. There seems to be no such address today, and I haven't found any family connection with that address. Was it perhaps the address of a police station or a charity like SGCM?
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1881 census 40 Ely Place, Shoreditch (likely to be same address I would have thought?)
William HUNLOCK age 60 silk weaver. Widower
George 33 unm. Embossed on glass
Richard 22 unm, silk weaver
Here is the street anyway. https://maps.nls.uk/view/101201505#zoom=4.5&lat=9912&lon=14286&layers=BT
https://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news/25687799.lost-east-end-street-now-busy-hospital/
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That makes a lot of sense, mckha! I just checked the census records. Their sister-in-law was Elizabeth Hurlock (not Hunlock). Harry and Edward's brother William and she lived just a few doors away at No. 35 Ely Place in 1881. Should have thought of this myself. It's a family of contrasts. William lived a relatively normal law-abiding life as a firewood dealer, with four children. His wife Elizabeth died in 1882, but he quickly re-married. Another brother had a stellar musical career as an army-trained bandmaster including 3 years for the Royal Navy and 10 years at Harrow School.