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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: aelish on Thursday 18 April 24 16:44 BST (UK)
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Hello,
This is my first post in Roots Chat, so please forgive me if it's in the wrong spot.
I'm unraveling a mystery and my current brick wall is with by g,g grandfather, Francis Joseph McNally (FJM).
I recently found the church registry of his marriage (17 JUN 1908 / St. Michael, Philadelphia PA) which indicated that he was baptized on 31 JAN 1878 in Liverpool, England by Father James Nugent. I had always believed that his date of birth was 31 JAN 1878 and that he was born in Philadelphia. I never could find a birth certificate for him anywhere in the USA. Four of his siblings were baptized Philadelphia between 1868 and 1875, three at St. Michael's and one at another church. I have their records from the relevant church registries, but have never found a civil birth record for any of them (in the USA).
As I've begun looking in and around Liverpool for FJM's birth record, I discovered that he appears to have been deserted at Kirkdale Industrial School 4 SEP 1800 at the age of 2 along with two brothers (George, deserted 17 SEP 1880, and Henry, deserted 4 SEP 1880) and two sisters (Mary Ann and Rebecca; deserted 4 SEP 1880), and someone who may be a cousin or another sibling - Thomas McNally; deserted 4 SEP 1880. The ages of each of the children appear to line up with the ages found in the other baptismal records I have (for George, Mary Ann - I don't have Rebecca's) and with the City of Philadelphia Death Certificates that I have (for FJM, George, and Rebecca). The Kirkdale records that I have for these children state that they were born in Prescot, Lancashire, England. But I don't know who the informant was for that given that they were deserted - and I have a baptismal record for all but FJM and Rebecca (and Thomas) in Philadelphia.
I believe the mother of all of these children (except Thomas) is Rebecca (McLaughlin) McNally. I've found an admission to Kirkdale Workhouse for Rebecca (the mother) 30 DEC 1877. It's noted that she's in the "lying in" area of the workhouse, her husband is "James" (which tracks with my other records), and that James is a publican; "where slept last night" has the entry "Friar Street Everton" and in the last column, it reads "Prisoner". The record also includes a "÷" notation, except that the slash is tilted, like this: ∕ . It appears after her last name on the record, and before the word "Prisoner". I've found one record for a Rebecca McNally (from 1865, Wolverhampton) for larceny with a sentence of 1 year, and another record of a Liverpool trial on 3 JAN 1878 for Rebecca MACNally and her husband (James MACNally) convicted of stealing and sentenced to 1 year hard labor. The latter record makes reference to the 1865 larceny for Rebecca - so it appears to be the same Rebecca although McNally is spelled differently in the two records.
So, my questions are:
- Would a pregnant woman have been moved from jail into a workhouse to give birth in the late 1870s? Or, would a pregnant woman have been admitted to a workhouse while she awaited trial?
- I know that Father Nugent served as a pastor in the Liverpool Jail for many years, and was involved in child welfare his whole life. What records would I check to see if Fr. Nugent baptized JFM in either a jail or the workhouse?
I have later records of these children being discharged from Kirkdale and coming to the USA - 1882. They do not include an adult Rebecca - I suspect she may have died there, but have not record of that. All death certs and US Censuses that I have for the children and their father, James, indicated that James and Rebecca (the mother) were born in Ireland, although I have no proof of that yet. I suspect James and Rebecca emigrated to the US after her 1 year sentence in 1865 for larceny and settled in Philadelphia. Then, it appears they went (back?) to Liverpool with several of their children - and had 1-2 more children there before being convicted of stealing. I just can't figure out why they went to England... any thoughts/hypotheses appreciated!
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Welcome to Rootschat!!
As you said that you had records of the family going to USA in 1882, I checked the 1881 census to see if I could find any of them. Not sure if you have already done this, but it doesn't say you have. I found all of them in The Union Workhouse School at Kirkdale except for Henry who wasn't on the list, and the girls were on a separate census to the boys. So we have Thomas (who may be a relative) aged 13yrs, Francis aged 3 yrs, so that fits in with your 1878 date for his birth, George aged 11 yrs. All born in Prescot Lancashire. The girls Mary Ann aged 13yrs, and Rebecca aged 8 yrs also born Prescot.
No sign of parents James and Rebecca though.
Regards.
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thank you so much, Paco! I had found them in the Census, yes.
Still stumped as to the birthplace although I realize it shows Prescot. I have George, Henry, and Mary Ann being baptized in Philadelphia PA in the respective years of their births (as opposed to a later baptism)... and I have been able to find no record of birth for them in Prescot.
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One of the c1880 workhouse records for the children has a notation of "Dead" for both parents.
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yes, I think that was for Thomas McNally - I don't believe he's a sibling of the other McNallys, but likely a cousin. The others were all deserted.
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Yes, there are several workhouse records which state "Deserted", but there's also a 1880-81 record (for Thomas and Francis) which states" Dead" for both parents. Just wanted to mention it.
How did the McNally children end up in Philadelphia (again) by 1882?
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thank you! I don't think I've seen one for Francis that lists his parents as dead - are you able to share that or point me to it?
I have George, Mary Ann, Rebecca, Harry (Henry), and Francis on board the SS Lord Clive which left Liverpool June 1882. With them were two James McNallys (ages 20 and 16). I believe the 20 yo James may be an uncle - and I believe he was also in Kirkdale (it looks like he was admitted at age 10 in 1872; parents dead). I'm not sure who the 16 yo James is. Perhaps an error in recording his age? James (the father) would have been mid 40s at this time...maybe 16 was recoded rather than 46?
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1880-81 Liverpool workhouse entry (on FindMyPast)
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But I don't know who the informant was for that given that they were deserted
"Deserted children" were usually abandoned by a parent(s) whilst in the workhouse. So, the workhouse staff would've been aware of the situation to verify it in their records.
You might find this info helpful: https://visitvictorianengland.com/2015/12/09/victorian-prison-babies/
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Birmingham Daily Gazette
06 January 1865
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This might be Rebecca, as well. One year earlier (1864). The Sheffield Police record indicates this woman's birth year is 1835 (close enough to the RM arrested in Liverpool and Wolverhampton).
Sheffield Independent
09 July 1864
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Not sure if this is Rebecca, although the record image mentions this woman's husband is named James.
Manchester Prison Registers 1847-1881
Event year 1877
First name(s) Rebecca
Last name Mc Nally
Age 40
Locality of record Belle Vue prison, West Gorton
Birth year 1837
Birth place Scotland
When received date May 1877
Place West Gorton
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Thanks, Ashtone. These are helpful - I've searched a lot on Newspapers.com - but have not found articles. I do have the criminal court record for the Liverpool 1878 conviction (which references the Wolverhampton conviction).
I have some evidence of a James and Rebecca McNally involved in similar behavior in Philadelphia, PA. And, to make things more confusing, there was a woman named Kate Armstrong who was a noted pickpocket along the east coast of the US in the 1870s-1890s. She used several aliases, one of which was Rebecca McNally.
https://criminalsrevised.org/132-kate-armstrong/
Kate Armstrong doesn't appear to be my RM - the timelines don't reconcile with Armonstrong's activity and RM's presence in Philadelphia, having children and getting them baptized there.
I do think RM engaged in some level of pickpocketing, larceny. In the UK and perhaps in the U.S.
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I had a look on FreeBMD for likely births and found the following; George Sept Qtr 1869 Prescott; Mary Ann Dec. Qtr. 1865 Prescott; That is the only ones I found in Prescott, however in South Shields Co Durham there is a Francis McNally Mar Qtr 1878, and Rebecca McNally South Shields Co Durham Mar. Qtr 1876. This last one for Rebecca would have only made her 5 years old on the 1881 census, so may not be the two you are looking for.
Regards.
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I had a look on FreeBMD for likely births and found the following; George Sept Qtr 1869 Prescott; Mary Ann Dec. Qtr. 1865 Prescott; That is the only ones I found in Prescott, however in South Shields Co Durham there is a Francis McNally Mar Qtr 1878, and Rebecca McNally South Shields Co Durham Mar. Qtr 1876. This last one for Rebecca would have only made her 5 years old on the 1881 census, so may not be the two you are looking for.
Regards.
Mary Ann McNally b 1865, Prescot has mmn Durkan
George 1869 has mmn Murphy
Added
The two South Shields births have mmn McAffee.
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Thank you, @Paco and @heywood... and the MMN for Rebecca in South Shields is McAfee.
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Rebecca appears to be all over the place with her pick-pocketing arrests. Were those McNally children actually born in Prescot, as the workhouse register suggests?
And did James and Rebecca ever marry? Is there a marriage record? The births could be registered under Rebecca's maiden name.
And who arranged/paid for the children's passage to the USA in 1882? Was it Father Nugent?
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This Father Nugent?
https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/father-james-nugent-1822-1905
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Rebecca appears to be all over the place with her pick-pocketing arrests. Were those McNally children actually born in Prescot, as the workhouse register suggests? I'm thinking they were not - all the baptisms I have were in Philadelphia - with parents recorded as James McNally and Rebecca (McLaughlin) McNally, with the right time frames.
And did James and Rebecca ever marry? Is there a marriage record? The births could be registered under Rebecca's maiden name. There is a marriage entry (see attached - their entry is last on the right hand page) for them in the register of St. Philip Neri church in Philadelphia. There's a story with that, too. The entry appears on the 1864 page of the register, but the marriage is dated 10 JUL 1869. Witness last name "Cuddihy". The entry is not numbered like the other entries on the page, so there's something not right with it. I'm not sure if they married in 1864 and it was recoded erroneously, or if they married in 1869 and it was recorded (for some unknown reason) on the 1864 page.
And who arranged/paid for the children's passage to the USA in 1882? Was it Father Nugent?
No idea at this point - that's a good guess.
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@heywood - yes, that's the Fr. Nugent I'm focused on.
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Yes, he was involved in children going overseas.
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I'm thinking Father Nugent arranged passage for the McNally children in 1882. That would explain how FJM was able to provide his 1878 baptism details when he married. Perhaps Father Nugent furnished the family with documents when they left the UK, to use in future.
Pity the US 1890 census is missing. Would be interesting to see where the children were from 1882 until the 1900 census. That's if they have been found in the 1900 census.
I think I see the family in the 1870 census (Philadelphia). Husband James is a "Ret liquor dealer?
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@Ashtone 1870 Census - James age 35 and Rebecca age 27? It could be them, yes. George was about to be born - not sure what day the census was taken as it's blank on their page. Must go back and look at pages before/after. Retail Liquor Dealer - yes.
I have a James and Frank McNally on the 1900 Census - it's a terribly hard to read entry, but it's the last two rows on the image. I don't know what the street is supposed to be - it was transcribed as Casher Street, but I checked a map and the historical street index of Philly and there's no Casher. It could be Castor Avenue, but I don't think that's anywhere the other streets on the Census page - N. 7th, N. Marshall, and Franklin streets.
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Are you 100% certain that's FJM and James in 1900? I'm looking at the occupations for both. Too faint to make out James' occupation (xxx Park?), but Frank's looks like xxx Music. ??? Does this tally with what you know about him?
Also, the 1870 census has a "blank" page, but there's another version that is normal and readable.
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I'm not 100% sure, no. However, on James' death certificate his occupation was listed as a gardener. I think it reads "keeper park" on the 1900 Census. It does look like "music" on FJM's and it looks to me like the word preceding it is "solicitor"... so I'm stumped there.
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I agree - the 1900 occupation looks like "Solicitor Music". When and where do you have James McNally dying? Seem a bit odd to go from "liquor dealer" and "publican" (Liverpool workhouse register) to a gardener.
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17 FEB 1912 in Philadelphia. Note that the year of birth recorded is likely wrong. And gardener is misspelled. But the Darien Street address jives with later Census records, and other records for his children.
Informant was a doctor - not sure how accurate the parental info is.
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Just in case you don't have this report. Friar Street, Everton is mentioned in one of the workhouse registers.
Liverpool Weekly Courier, (5 January 1878)
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This one mentions Rebecca going into the workhouse hospital. Another report for the same crime mentions "certain title deeds relating to property in Boston, in Lincolnshire" were found in the couple's Friar Street house.
I wonder if the other report possibly confused Boston (Mass) with Lincolnshire? ???
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I didn't have either of these two reports, Ashtone, thank you. Where are you finding these? My searches on Newspapers.com and GenealogyBank are coming up empty - but maybe they don't have the papers I need in their collections.
One thing that always bothered me was that their son, George, listed on a marriage application in 1929 that his parents were both deceased and that they resided in "Mass." (which I interpreted to be Massachusetts. I never could understand why he would list "Mass." as their last residence when they (or at least James) spent so much time in Philadelphia. Can you share the article that references Boston?
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Here it is. I use FindMyPast for newspaper coverage. Does Newspapers.com have UK coverage?
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thank you. Newspapers.com says they have UK coverage, but none of these have come up in my searches.