RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Lensmeister on Wednesday 10 April 24 16:33 BST (UK)
-
Good afternoon one and all,
I thought it was a simple task but it is far from that so far.
Q1. Has Scotland's People dropped any records off of their site?
Okay Here's the main reason for the thread.
My wife's great Grandfather was Archibald Morrison.
His father was James Morrison.
Mother Mary Morrison.
Here is a timeline of what I know so far:
1850: His parents married on 1 Jun in Kildalton and Oa, Argyll, Scotland
1851: Census [attached]. Parish of Inner High, 8 St Nicholas Street. at home are:
James Morrison Head Mar 49 Gas Lab born: Argyle, Kilmichael
Mary Morrison Wife 28 Born Argyle, Islay
John Son 5 Born Argyle, Islay
Archibald 3m Born Argyle, Islay
Sarah 10 Born Argyle, Islay
Ann 4 Born Argyle, Islay
a Lodger.
Jane Cameron Visitor 22 Born Argyle, Islay
Catherine Morrison 20 Born Argyle, Islay
1861: Census in Glasgow with parents but now Born Glasgow.
1871: census in Glasgow
1881: Census in Glasgow
1883: Archibald Married Margaret Ferguson McLaughlin in 1883, Glasgow [attached]
1891: Census in Glasgow
1901: Census in Glasgow
1923: Archibald died in Glasgow,
I can't find a Archibald Morrison from 1849 - 1852 on Scotland's People with a father of James and Mother Mary.
Q2. Any ideas where and when Archibald was born?
Thanks in advance,
-
Q1. Has Scotland's People dropped any records off of their site?No.
But they can only put up records that actually exist and to which they have access (and the agreement of the owner of the records if they are records that don't belong to the National Records of Scotland).
It's quite possible that Archibald's baptism was simply not recorded. Maybe they were so busy with the imminent move to Glasgow that they overlooked having it recorded.
Q2. Any ideas where and when Archibald was born?
I would tend to go with the 1851 census, as that is the one closest to his birth.
Actually I wonder if there were two couples with the same names.
In 1851 the census included 3 children, Sarah, 10; John, 5 and Ann, 4, all born before 1850 when Mary married James. Are these children of an earlier marriage, or is this a different James and Mary who were married several years earlier?
I note with interest that James Morrison and his wife Mary, maiden surname Morrison, had a daughter Mary, born 2 January 1855 in Kildalton and Oa, Isle of Islay, Argyll. Her birth certificate says that she was Mary's 4th child, and that there were 1 boy and 3 girls living. It also says that James was 28 and Mary was 32, and that they were married at Kildalton in 1850.
James Morrison and Mary, maiden surname Morrison, also had sons John, born 28 May 1857 at Kildalton, and Gilbert, born 7 April 1860 in Kildalton. Mary died on 14 April 1860 of puerperal fever, and Gilbert died a few weeks later.
The 1861 says that the Glasgow James M was 49 and Mary was 35. As this is after the death of Mary Morrison, wife of James Morrison, in Kildalton in 1860, James and Mary Morrison, parents of Archibald, are not the couple who were married in 1850.
And who are the child Peter, aged 8, and Catherine, aged 5 in 1861?
-
Firstly Thank you very much for you help.
No.
But they can only put up records that actually exist and to which they have access (and the agreement of the owner of the records if they are records that don't belong to the National Records of Scotland).
It's quite possible that Archibald's baptism was simply not recorded. Maybe they were so busy with the imminent move to Glasgow that they overlooked having it recorded.
I thought there wouldn't be records taken down. I was sure I'd found something on Archibald previously.
Q2. Any ideas where and when Archibald was born?
I would tend to go with the 1851 census, as that is the one closest to his birth.
Actually I wonder if there were two couples with the same names.
I wondered that too. Morrison is quite a common name.[/quote]
In 1851 the census included 3 children, Sarah, 10; John, 5 and Ann, 4, all born before 1850 when Mary married James. Are these children of an earlier marriage, or is this a different James and Mary who were married several years earlier?
I was thinking that maybe he had been previously married but on their marriage entry it states he is a bachelor.
I note with interest that James Morrison and his wife Mary, maiden surname Morrison, had a daughter Mary, born 2 January 1855 in Kildalton and Oa, Isle of Islay, Argyll. Her birth certificate says that she was Mary's 4th child, and that there were 1 boy and 3 girls living. It also says that James was 28 and Mary was 32, and that they were married at Kildalton in 1850.
James Morrison and Mary, maiden surname Morrison, also had sons John, born 28 May 1857 at Kildalton, and Gilbert, born 7 April 1860 in Kildalton. Mary died on 14 April 1860 of puerperal fever, and Gilbert died a few weeks later.
Where did you find this info?
The 1861 says that the Glasgow James M was 49 and Mary was 35. As this is after the death of Mary Morrison, wife of James Morrison, in Kildalton in 1860, James and Mary Morrison, parents of Archibald, are not the couple who were married in 1850.
Me neither ;D
And who are the child Peter, aged 8, and Catherine, aged 5 in 1861?
I know. More intrigue
Again thanks for you help thus far.
-
Where did you find this info?
Scotland's People. Where else?
-
This might be the couple who married in 1850. Everyone showing as born in Kildalton:
Thomas Morrison 60 Farmer Of 5 Acres
Isabella Morrison 60
James Morrison 26 Son-in-law
Mary Morrison 25 Daughter
William Morrison 5 Months Grandson
Address 26 Glen Lotts, Kildalton
Possible remarriage for James in 1860, following the death of wife Mary as mentioned by Forfarian. Second remarriage to Ann McCuaig on 17 July 1860. 1861 Census for them:
James Morrison 35 Farmer 40 Acres
Ann Morrison 30 b. Bowmore
William Morrison 10
Janet Morrison 8
Isabella Morrison 6
Mary Morrison 4
Address Moor Lots, Kildalton
Monica
-
Morrison is quite a common name.
There's also an infinite variety of possible spellings: Morrison, Morison, Murison, Muirson, Murrison, Moreson - and these are only the ones I've come across in my own research... ;D
Ruth
-
Morrison is quite a common name.
There's also an infinite variety of possible spellings: Morrison, Morison, Murison, Muirson, Murrison, Moreson - and these are only the ones I've come across in my own research... ;D
Ruth
Use m*r*s*n when searching - that picks up all variants.
-
Afternoon all,
I'm at work so limited access to info other than some basics.
I'm sort of thinking that the 1861 may not be the family I am looking for after all.
Let me go back to Archibald Morrison's Marriage:
Married 1st June 1883.
Groom: Archibald Morrison (Iron Foundry Laborer) Batchelor.
Father: James Morrison (General Labourer) deceased.
Mother: Mary Morrison Nee Morrison Deceased
Both living at 34 East Hill Street, Glasgow.
Bride: Margaret McLaughlin (Cotton xx worker) Spinter.
Father: John LcLaughlin (Xxx Works Labourer)
Mother: Mary McLaughlin nee Ferguson
I know this is the right marriage as the wife's grandfather is James Morrison.
Born 17 Aug 1884 34 East Hill Street Glasgow.
Father: Archibald Morrison (Iron Works Labourer)
Mother: Margaret Morrison Nee McLaughlin
The birth cert shows marriage date as 1st June 1993, Glasgow.
------
Looking at the 1891 Census now:
Living at 54 Barrack Street, St John Parish, Parliamentary Division Camlachie.
Archibald - Head - Mar - 41* - Foundry Labourer (Unemployed) - Lanarkshire Glasgow.
Margaret - Wife - Mar - 35 - No trade - Lanarkshire, Glasgow.
John - Son - Un - 11 - Scholar - Lanarkshire, Glasgow.
James - Son - un - 6 - Scholar - Lanarkshire, Glasgow.
Alexander - Son - Un - 4 - No Trade - Lanarkshire, Glasgow.
Moses - Son - Un - 2 - No Trade - Lanarkshire, Glasgow.
Matthew - Son Un - 8mo - No Trade - Lanarkshire, Glasgow.
* It looks like 41 but the original has a tick through it.
I have other census' 1881, 1871 as well but I haven't got them with me at the moment.
Can anyone see the 1861 census to establish where Archibald was born going on this info?
-
1881: 34 Hill Street, lodging with Moses Thompson, age 31, born Glasgow
1871: 12 Weaver Street, age 20, born Glasgow, with widowed mother Mary and brother John, 35
1861: Weaver Street, age 10, born Glasgow, with parents, brother John, 15, and younger siblings Peter and Catherine.
1851: St Nicholas Place, aged 3 months, with parents and siblings Sarah, 8; John, 5; and Ann, 4, all born Islay.
John seems to have aged 20 years in the 10 years between the 1861 and 1871 census - might be a good idea to view the originals just to check.
For elimination purposes:
1851 Census, Islay: James Morrison, 26, with wife Mary, 25, and son William, 0, with Mary's parents Thomas Morrison and Isabella Gilchrist
1861 census, Kildalton, Islay: James Morrison, 35, with wife Ann, 30 and children William, 10; Janet, 8; Isabella, 6 and Mary, 4.
In 1871: James, 44; wife Ann, 39; children William, 20; Mary, 15; Ann, 9; Eliza, 7; Margaret, 5; Catherine, 3; Duncan, 1. The births index confirms that maiden surname the mother of the younger children was MacCuaig. James Morrison and Nancy McCuaig were married in Kildalton in 1861.
Can't find a death of James' son Archibald by his first wife Mary Morrison.
James Morrison died in Kildalton in 1871. His death certificate should confirm the name of his first wife.
-
Thanks for the help on Archibald.
1881: 34 Hill Street, lodging with Moses Thompson, age 31, born Glasgow
I agree that this one IS the right Archibald. It possibly also show's his future father-in-law John McLachlan (aged 56). Archibald married a Margaret McLachlan in 1883 whos father is a John. If it not the same John then coincidence.
1871: 12 Weaver Street, age 20, born Glasgow, with widowed mother Mary and brother John, 35
Looking at the original document there is:
Mary - Head - Mar - 46 - Washerwoman - Islay, Kil.... (cannot make it out )
John - Son Unm - 25 - Labourer - Islay, Kil.... (cannot make it out )
Archibald - Son - 20 - Labourer - Lanarkshire, Glasgow
1861: Weaver Street, age 10, born Glasgow, with parents, brother John, 15, and younger siblings Peter and Catherine.
At home are:
James - Head - Mar - 49 - Labourer - Kilmichell Glassery
Mary - Wife - Mar - 35 - No trade - Port Charlotte, Kil .... (Cannot make it out)
John - Son - Unm - 15 - Labourer - Port Charlotte, Kil .... (Cannot make it out)
Archibald - Son - Unm - 10 - Scholar - Lanark Glasgow
Peter - Son - Unm 8 - Scholar - Lanark Glasgow
Catherine - Dau - 5 - Scholar - Lanark, Glasgow
(From original document)
1851: St Nicholas Place, aged 3 months, with parents and siblings Sarah, 8; John, 5; and Ann, 4, all born Islay.
I have this original document. The reason I am a little reticent that it correct is that all subsequent Census shows his birth place as Glasgow.
I've not found ANY birth/baptism for Archibald in the Glasgow area for him.
Also with his parents being married in 1850 Who are Sarah John and Ann I wonder?
John seems to have aged 20 years in the 10 years between the 1861 and 1871 census - might be a good idea to view the originals just to check.
The original is showing Archibald as:
1861 - 10 years old
1871 - 20 years old
For elimination purposes:
1851 Census, Islay: James Morrison, 26, with wife Mary, 25, and son William, 0, with Mary's parents Thomas Morrison and Isabella Gilchrist
1861 census, Kildalton, Islay: James Morrison, 35, with wife Ann, 30 and children William, 10; Janet, 8; Isabella, 6 and Mary, 4.
In 1871: James, 44; wife Ann, 39; children William, 20; Mary, 15; Ann, 9; Eliza, 7; Margaret, 5; Catherine, 3; Duncan, 1. The births index confirms that maiden surname the mother of the younger children was MacCuaig. James Morrison and Nancy McCuaig were married in Kildalton in 1861.
Can't find a death of James' son Archibald by his first wife Mary Morrison.
James Morrison died in Kildalton in 1871. His death certificate should confirm the name of his first wife.
These I'll have to have a further look in to.
As a further aside:
Archibald on the 1911 census shows as working at St Rollox Locomotive Works.
Rather amusing that I've worked on the railways all my life. ;D ;D ;D
-
with his parents being married in 1850 Who are Sarah John and Ann I wonder?
I have been trying to explain to you that I am sure that the couple in Glasgow are not the couple of the same names who were married in Islay in 1850. That couple stayed in Islay and had William c 1851, Janet c 1852, Isabella c 1854, Mary 1855, James 1857 and Gilbert, who was born and died in Islay in 1860, and his mother Mary Morrison died a few days after baby Gilbert.
Your Archibald's mother Mary was clearly alive and kicking after her namesake in Islay had died, because she is in the 1861 and 1871 censuses with Archibald.
Your Archibald's parents had Sarah c 1842, John c 1845, Ann c 1846, Archibald in 1850 or 1851, Peter c 1852 and Catherine c 1855. Therefore they must have been married about 1840/1841 but there is no record of the marriage, or of any of the children's baptisms. It's possible, but unlikely, that they didn't marry at all. Either way, the 1850 marriage has nothing to do with your Archibald's family.
-
James - Head - Mar - 49 - Labourer - Kilmichell Glassery
Mary - Wife - Mar - 35 - No trade - Port Charlotte, Kil .... (Cannot make it out)
John - Son - Unm - 15 - Labourer - Port Charlotte, Kil .... (Cannot make it out)
Port Charlotte is in the parish of Kilchoman. See https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Argyle/Kilchoman
The parish of Kilmichael Glassary is on the mainland of Argyll. See https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Argyle/Glassary
-
with his parents being married in 1850 Who are Sarah John and Ann I wonder?
I have been trying to explain to you that I am sure that the couple in Glasgow are not the couple of the same names who were married in Islay in 1850. That couple stayed in Islay and had William c 1851, Janet c 1852, Isabella c 1854, Mary 1855, James 1857 and Gilbert, who was born and died in Islay in 1860, and his mother Mary Morrison died a few days after baby Gilbert.
Your Archibald's mother Mary was clearly alive and kicking after her namesake in Islay had died, because she is in the 1861 and 1871 censuses with Archibald.
Your Archibald's parents had Sarah c 1842, John c 1845, Ann c 1846, Archibald in 1850 or 1851, Peter c 1852 and Catherine c 1855. Therefore they must have been married about 1840/1841 but there is no record of the marriage, or of any of the children's baptisms. It's possible, but unlikely, that they didn't marry at all. Either way, the 1850 marriage has nothing to do with your Archibald's family.
OK I get that. Thanks.
I have done a ScotlandPeople search for the following:
Suname: Morrison
Forename: none
Gender: both
Father: Archibald
Mother: Mary
Years: 1840 - 1847
This is all that came up:
MORRISON
ELISABETH
ARCHIBALD MORRISON MARY MCDONALD FR1812 (FR1812)
F
23/02/1845
564 / 3
60 / 375
GREENOCK OLD OR WEST
MORRISON
MARY
ARCHIBALD MORRISON MARY MCDONALD FR1715 (FR1715)
F
28/02/1841
564 / 3
60 / 182
GREENOCK OLD OR WEST
MORRISON
JANET BOWIE
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/MARY JOHNSTON FR3117 (FR3117)
F
18/05/1847
479
110 / 371
FALKIRK
MORRISON
ARCHIBALD
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/MARY JOHNSTON
M
18/05/1844
479
110 / 218
FALKIRK
Same criteria only I removed the parents and searched for Susan:
MORRISON
ELISABETH
ARCHIBALD MORRISON MARY MCDONALD FR1812 (FR1812)
F
23/02/1845
564 / 3
60 / 375
GREENOCK OLD OR WEST
MORRISON
MARY
ARCHIBALD MORRISON MARY MCDONALD FR1715 (FR1715)
F
28/02/1841
564 / 3
60 / 182
GREENOCK OLD OR WEST
MORRISON
JANET BOWIE
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/MARY JOHNSTON FR3117 (FR3117)
F
18/05/1847
479
110 / 371
FALKIRK
MORRISON
ARCHIBALD
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/MARY JOHNSTON
M
18/05/1844
479
110 / 218
FALKIRK
Same Criteria for Ann with a father of Archibald (lots if the fathers name left off)
Surname Forename Parents/Other details Gender Birth/Baptism Date Parish Number Ref Parish
MORRISON
MARY ANN
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/ANN FARQUHAR
F
01/10/1841
043
40 / 397
WICK
MORRISON
ANN
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/ELIZABETH TOSH FR741 (FR741)
F
30/07/1846
725
30 / 180
YESTER
Came criteria (changed to John with a father of Archibald)
Surname Forename Parents/Other details Gender Birth/Baptism Date Parish Number Ref Parish
MORRISON
JOHN
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/JEAN MCKENZIE FR5336 (FR5336)
M
03/03/1840
644 / 1
360 / 13
GLASGOW
Not seem to match up.
No Peters between 1840 - 1855 with a father of Archibald.
Many Catherines on the Statutory but none with a mother's maiden name of Morrison.
The only Catherine on the old Parish Registers is:
Surname Forename Parents/Other details Gender Birth/Baptism Date Parish Number Ref Parish
MORRISON
CATHERINE
ARCHIBALD MORRISON/CATHERINE BRODIE FR1065 (FR1065)
F
03/10/1854
644 / 2
50 / 347
GORBALS
Looks like none of them were registered.
-
James - Head - Mar - 49 - Labourer - Kilmichell Glassery
Mary - Wife - Mar - 35 - No trade - Port Charlotte, Kil .... (Cannot make it out)
John - Son - Unm - 15 - Labourer - Port Charlotte, Kil .... (Cannot make it out)
Port Charlotte is in the parish of Kilchoman. See https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Argyle/Kilchoman
The parish of Kilmichael Glassary is on the mainland of Argyll. See https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Argyle/Glassary
Thanks for the clarification :)
-
Looks like none of them were registered.
Just exactly so.
Very annoying, but facts (or the absence of them) are chiels that winna ding.
-
I just realised the searches I did abover were for:
a father called Archibald!!! Should have been JAMES!
What a numpty I am!!!!!!!! ::) ::) ::)
So I have done a search on SP thus:
Surname: m*r*s*n
Forename: none
Years: 1840 - 1855
Gender: Both
Father: James
Mother: Mary
Again lots of results none of the ones I am looking for.
-
I had a look at the Statistical Accounts of Kilchoman at https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Argyle/Kilchoman
See screenshot, extracted from the New Statistical Account.
Also https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.4&lat=55.74020&lon=-6.38733&layers=257&b=1&o=100 which shows that there was a Free Kirk in Port Charlotte. Why would the Morrisons traipse all the way to the Church of Scotland Parish Kirk at Kilchoman when there was an alternative on the doorstep? Unfortunately (as far as I can see) no registers kept by the Port Charlotte Free Kirk are in the care of the National Records of Scotland, and even if they ever existed they may not have survived.
-
@Forfarian Thank you for looking.
It seems that the family weren't registered or if they were its all lost in the sands of time.
I have other Scottish and Irish branches of the wife's family to search still.
Thanks you again for all your time and help
-
You know that James Morrison was alive in 1861, and dead by 1871.
He said in 1851 that he was 42, and in 1861 that he was 49. so he was born some time between about 1810 and 1820.
There are five deaths of James Morrisons, born 1815 plus or minus 5 years, in Glasgow between 1861 and 1871. See screenshot.
The census index at SP shows that in 1851, 1861 and 1871 the family was in Central District 644/1. So the chances are that your James is one of the three who died in Central.
Checking the mothers' maiden surnames against the old parish registers, there is a baptism of James Morrison to Archibald Morrison and Anne MacCallum in Glassary in 1810.
I couldn't resist having a look and bingo! James Morrison, married to Mary Morrison, parents Archibald Morrison, weaver, and Agnes McCallum, died at 12 Weaver Street, Glasgow on 15 July 1868. (The names Agnes and Anne can be interchangeable.)
This couple were married in Glassary in 1803 and had 8 children baptised in Glassary between 1802 and 1827. See screenshot.
In the 1841 census, in Glassary, are a family consisting of Archd, 51, weaver, Ann, 60 and Ann, 19. These look rather like your Archibald and Ann(e)/Agnes. See screenshot.
In 1851 Ann is a widow, aged 60, with daughter Ann, 24 and two young grandchildren. They're not there in 1861.
So that gets you back another generation, and provides lots of scope for exploring lateral lines.
-
Hi Forfarian,
Thanks very much for this.
The James you mention is Archibald's father WOW thank you :)
I've just got home from a long drive so my brain is a little frazzled (the M25 is a nightmare this afternoon).
I'll be having a close look tomorrow when we get home from the shopping.
Thanks you so much. I will have a glass of Glengoyne 18 year old single Malt in your honour
-
The names Agnes and Anne can be interchangeable.
As an aside, on the interchangeability of Agnes and Ann, I had a friend years ago, who was of French descent (living in Scotland) - she was called Agnès, pronounced, by her at least, An-yes - so you can see quite easily how Agnes and Ann can be variants of the same name...
Ruth
-
I thought the M25 was always a nightmare at all times?
Glad to see you'll be drinking a decent malt :) Slàinte mhàth!
-
As an aside, on the interchangeability of Agnes and Ann, I had a friend years ago, who was of French descent (living in Scotland) - she was called Agnès, pronounced, by her at least, An-yes - so you can see quite easily how Agnes and Ann can be variants of the same name...
Ruth
Thanks. That explains one of the wife's English side and the confusion over one person.
I thought the M25 was always a nightmare at all times?
Glad to see you'll be drinking a decent malt :) Slàinte mhàth!
Generally the M25 is pretty crap but I managed to escape it. Today approaching the Dartford Bridge it was bad.
I still have a bottle of Glen Ord (My favourite single malt) but I try never to open it.
Shopping soon.
-
You know that James Morrison was alive in 1861, and dead by 1871.
He said in 1851 that he was 42, and in 1861 that he was 49. so he was born some time between about 1810 and 1820.
There are five deaths of James Morrisons, born 1815 plus or minus 5 years, in Glasgow between 1861 and 1871. See screenshot.
The census index at SP shows that in 1851, 1861 and 1871 the family was in Central District 644/1. So the chances are that your James is one of the three who died in Central.
Checking the mothers' maiden surnames against the old parish registers, there is a baptism of James Morrison to Archibald Morrison and Anne MacCallum in Glassary in 1810.
I couldn't resist having a look and bingo! James Morrison, married to Mary Morrison, parents Archibald Morrison, weaver, and Agnes McCallum, died at 12 Weaver Street, Glasgow on 15 July 1868. (The names Agnes and Anne can be interchangeable.)
This couple were married in Glassary in 1803 and had 8 children baptised in Glassary between 1802 and 1827. See screenshot.
In the 1841 census, in Glassary, are a family consisting of Archd, 51, weaver, Ann, 60 and Ann, 19. These look rather like your Archibald and Ann(e)/Agnes. See screenshot.
In 1851 Ann is a widow, aged 60, with daughter Ann, 24 and two young grandchildren. They're not there in 1861.
So that gets you back another generation, and provides lots of scope for exploring lateral lines.
I've been through all of this slowly and added things to the Family Tree Maker.
Just plain WOW
Thank you very very much.
I've done searches to get these myself and saved them.
When payday comes next Friday I'll be buying some more credits and be able to save them and put them on FTM.
Once I get the Marriage of Archibald and Anne I'll may be able to find their parents from it.
Thanks Forfarian.
-
Once I get the Marriage of Archibald and Anne I'll may be able to find their parents from it.
I'm afraid that that is extremely unlikely - it is rare for pre-1855 church records to name the couple's parents in a marriage record.
Thanks Forfarian.
You're welcome.