RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Gerry Burroughs on Wednesday 03 April 24 15:10 BST (UK)
-
Hi everyone I have promised my wife that I will try and sort out her part of the family. Her granny was Alice Mc Cabe and her husband was a Jack Mc Cabe. Their children were Jack May Eileen and James. James was my wife’s father. We know the history of the other children but my wife has no knowledge at all of her granny ie maiden name etc nor does she have any knowledge of her granddads side of the Mc Cabes who resided in 15 Rockville St Belfast. Any information would be most appreciated. Thank you.
-
Her granny was Alice Mc Cabe and her husband was a Jack Mc Cabe.
First thing would be to find their marriage and obtain her maiden name - any idea when or where they would have married? Or when they died?
What year was their first child born to estimate a date?
-
Checking street listings on the Lennon Wylie directory website and the Irish census it looks like Rockville street was only completed in around 1911, the 1910 directory only shows houses on one side of the street. First sign I located of a McCabe is a John McCabe, a painter at no. 13 in 1924 (https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/qrcomplete1924.htm)
-
marriage for this John and Alice ?
Marriage of John Mccabe And Alice Mcgrath 05 April 1915 (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/12011d1725062) at ST. Malachy RC - groom's occupation is painter as per that directory
-
There are at least three possible children to this couple on IrishGenealogy - Kathleen, Mary Josephine and John James (i.e. poss. Jack) - see this search (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-perform-search.jsp?namefm=&namel=mccabe+mcgrath&location=Belfast&yyfrom=&yyto=&type=B&submit=Search&sort=date&pageSize=100¢ury=&decade=&exact=&ddBfrom=&ddMfrom=&ddDfrom=&ddPfrom=&mmBfrom=&mmMfrom=&mmDfrom=&mmPfrom=&yyBfrom=&yyMfrom=&yyDfrom=&yyPfrom=&ddBto=&ddMto=&ddDto=&ddPto=&mmBto=&mmMto=&mmDto=&mmPto=&yyBto=&yyMto=&yyDto=&yyPto=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&locationP=&keywordb=&keywordm=&keywordd=&keywordp=&event=&district=), the first two born Donegall Ave and John born 13 Rockville St.
-
marriage for this John and Alice ?
Marriage of John Mccabe And Alice Mcgrath 05 April 1915 (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/12011d1725062) at ST. Malachy RC - groom's occupation is painter as per that directory
The St. Malachy's record for the 1915 marriage of John McCabe and Alice McGrath gives his parents as James McCabe and Annie McKinstry, hers as James McGrath and Kate Waldron.
-
As athacliath62 mentioned John James McCabe a house painter and living up to 1960 at least at 13 Rockville Street (at 477 Falls Road), Belfast.
13. McCabe, John, painter
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/qrcomplete1943.htm
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/qrcomplete1951.htm
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/qrcomplete1960.htm
-
Additional child-
GRONI Online
James McCabe 7th April 1923 Male McGrath Belfast
-
The St. Malachy's church records confirm that the following Catherine McGrath who married Edmund Duffy in 1913 is a sister of Alice (parents given as James McGrath and Catherine Waldron, John McCabe of 12 Donnybrook St. was a witness):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1913/09895/5595410.pdf
-
This looks like a marriage for the parents of Alice and Catherine McGrath, in Co. Dublin in 1877:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1877/11125/8073358.pdf
-
The McGrath family in 1901:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Howth/Howth/1270566/
Alice and Catherine in 1911?
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ormeau/Ardgowan_Street/210180/
-
Alice and Catherine in 1911?
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ormeau/Ardgowan_Street/210180/
John Dalton married Martha McGrath on 25 December 1903 at St Matthews RC Church, Belfast.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1903/10251/5731164.pdf
-
John McCabe in 1911:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Windsor/Donnybrook_Street/157261/
-
Belfast Telegraph, 16 December 1961: DUFFY - December 16, 1961, at Hospital, CATHERINE, dearly-beloved wife of Edmund Duffy, 14 Rockville Street. - R.I.P. - Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Sister, Brother-in-law and Family, Alice and Jack McCabe, 13 Rockville St.
-
Alice Ellen McGrath's birth registration:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02359/1881325.pdf
-
Back to the parents of Alice McGrath, I think this may be the mother Catherine's Waldron's death in 1899:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05789/4637415.pdf
And this may be the father James McGrath's death in 1907:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05532/4550607.pdf
-
Catherine Waldron was clearly born pre-civil birth registration, however there's a promising baptismal record in the Howth RC parish registers, born 2 January 1855, baptised 6 January, parents John Waldron and Eliza Haggerty, living at the 'Hill of Howth', John Doyle and Marianna McNally were the sponsors:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633339#page/10/mode/1up (top entry)
-
And again in the Howth RC parish registers, the marriage of John Waldron and Elizabeth Hagerty took place on 30 January 1837... not unexpectedly for that era, the only other information is the names of the witnesses - George Thunder? and Margaret Waldron:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633338#page/102/mode/1up
-
Thank you so much for the research and information you have provided. Needless to say my wife is delighted and is working her way through the information provided. It is really sad that she new so little about her granny on her dads side and is only now getting to know her past.
-
I'm struggling to gain any traction on the McCabe side. The 1915 civil marriage registration indicated John James' birth c. 1890 and named his father as James McCabe, a policeman in the R.I.C. A transcript of the St. Malachy's church record of that same marriage added into the mix the name of his mother as Annie McKinstry. The relevant 1911 Ireland Census return showed Annie as a widow, born in Co. Antrim c. 1867 and married c. 1887, with all 3 children born in Belfast - c. 1894 (Kathleen), c. 1892 (John James) and c. 1890 (Mary).
I can't yet find a marriage for James McCabe (there is one of a so named policeman to an Anna Meek in St. Malachy's Belfast in 1886, but I can't see how it would fit). I can't yet find a 1901 Ireland Census return for the McCabes. I can't yet find births for John James or his sisters. So fresh eyes needed I think, in case I'm looking but just not seeing.
-
I asked my wife when her dad died 1993 (James Mc Cabe) born 1924. His mother my wife’s granny died early 70s or late 60s . His brother Jack died before 1993. There were 2 sisters Eileen and May now deceased.
-
I'm struggling to gain any traction on the McCabe side. The 1915 civil marriage registration indicated John James' birth c. 1890 and named his father as James McCabe, a policeman in the R.I.C. A transcript of the St. Malachy's church record of that same marriage added into the mix the name of his mother as Annie McKinstry. The relevant 1911 Ireland Census return showed Annie as a widow, born in Co. Antrim c. 1867 and married c. 1887, with all 3 children born in Belfast - c. 1894 (Kathleen), c. 1892 (John James) and c. 1890 (Mary).
I can't yet find a marriage for James McCabe (there is one of a so named policeman to an Anna Meek in St. Malachy's Belfast in 1886, but I can't see how it would fit). I can't yet find a 1901 Ireland Census return for the McCabes. I can't yet find births for John James or his sisters. So fresh eyes needed I think, in case I'm looking but just not seeing.
One day on and I'm still none the wiser about the McCabe side, this really ought not to be so difficult, so I'm starting to smell a rat. The only thing I did find was the following return in the 1901 Ireland Census, if you ignore the big anomalies in age (par for the course back then) and focus instead on the names and birth places, I could almost swear that this is the same family as in 1911, but calling themselves McKee rather than McCabe:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/St__Anne_s/Burnaby_Street/982126/
Other than that, I've found nothing.
-
My wife was on aware that her great grandfather was in the Royal Irish Constabulary and my friend Jim Herlihy is the author of at least 6 books on them and he holds the entire record of them. I have passed on your information to him and he will get back to me. I think there will be information where he was recruited and his wife’s details and I will let you know this information when Jim gets back to me.
-
I think there will be information where he was recruited and his wife’s details and I will let you know this information when Jim gets back to me.
The main series of R.I.C. service records are the registers. The registers normally give the following information:
• full name;
• age;
• height;
• religious affiliation;
• native county;
• trade or calling;
• marital status;
• native county of wife;
• date of appointment;
• counties in which the man served;
• length of service; and
• date of retirement and/or death.
The name of a wife is not given, nor any information about parents.
-
Yes you’re right there. My grandfather was a head constable RIC and I have all the details listed. Things happen in families and my grandad was no exception to that , posted to Belfast and married my granny twice , one outside the regulations and another to comply with the 7 year rule!! I told my wife about the name Mc Kee and she said that she remembers there was confusion in the Hospital years ago when kitty Mc Cabe or Kathleen Mc Kee ?? She said if it was possible to see the birth certificate of Kathleen Mc Kee it might show a connection with Mc Cabe or her mother.
-
Some further information to the story of kitty (Kathleen ) my wife said she left her mother at the hospital after she had been admitted and asked to see Kitty Mc Cabe but was told that there was no Kitty Mc Cabe my mother in law told the receptionist she had been with her to the hospital earlier that day and they must have her. The receptionist went and checked and when she returned my mother in law said the lady’s name was Mc Kee. !!!
-
Things happen in families and my grandad was no exception to that , posted to Belfast and married my granny twice , one outside the regulations and another to comply with the 7 year rule!!
Likewise, my gt grandfather was a constable in the RIC posted to County Sligo. Married my gt grandmother in County Leitrim, first in Killanummery Parish Church in 1860, then in the Registrar's Office, Manorhamilton in 1864.
-
My grandad met my granny when he was posted to Belfast, they had 2 children and then he was posted to Caherisveen where another 6 children were born which included my mum. He was born in Kilbaha where his family had a farm. He is mentioned in a book called Beleaguered and his pension is quoted in the book. I think he had 27 yrs service. Certainly had a difficult time up to his disbandment in 1922. My wife was saying if it is possible to get details on on Annie Mc Kee it might unlock more details on Mc Cabe.
-
That 1901 census return at reply #21 indicates that Annie McKee and family were in the 44th house enumerated in Burnaby Street, which doesn't automatically read across to street number, but when you look at the names in the other households enumerated in that street, there seems to be some measure of correlation between them and the names against street numbers in the 1901 Belfast street directory. With that in mind, note the following listing under Burnaby Street in the 1901 directory: 44. McKee, James, sailor
Burnaby Street intersected with Roden Street, so I wondered about the following death of a 44 year old bachelor called James McCabe in 1902, he was an R.I.C. constable and died in the workhouse (presumably infirmary), but was described as being 'from Roden St.', which I'm thinking might simply mean c/o the police barracks in that street:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1902/05689/4603510.pdf
I know this is speculative stuff, but it's starting to look like we also need to think outside the convention of a marriage and children born within wedlock.
-
Thank you for that information it really is difficult to see what is happening in that family. A James Mc Cabe RIC is mentioned as the father of John Mc Cabe during his marriage to Mc Grath in 1915 ?? Same person who died 1902 ??
-
Regarding Gaffy's post of the 1902 death of the RIC McCabe, there is this clip that states he MIGHT have had a family.
???
From the The Constabulary Gazette 13 September 1902
-
My goodness so he was married! Why wouldn’t this have been generally known??? Other information is recording him as a bachelor?? Amazing information thank you.
-
Wonder if there really is a connection with one or more of the Mc Kee children???
-
If these people are all connected, which certainly is a strong possibility, the problem is one or both were married to someone else, preventing them from marrying each other, and using the right names.
More digging is required!
-
Brilliant thank you. My wife and I are totally fascinated now. Many thanks everyone for your help.
-
Could there be a marriage certificate for Annie Mc Kee and James Mc Cable ?? My wife’s question!! Thank you .
-
Nothing is jumping out, but I don't have the best eyes for searching!
Gerry, could you or or wife try to find anything on the Kitty/Kathleen McKee lady you mentioned (the one in the hospital) at https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie Your wife should know approximate dates to narrow a birth down in the civil records? Just use names and dates, don't worry about districts.
Maybe a new hint will pop up.
-
Nothing is jumping out, but I don't have the best eyes for searching!
Gerry, could you or or wife try to find anything on the Kitty/Kathleen McKee lady you mentioned (the one in the hospital) at https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie Your wife should know approximate dates to narrow a birth down in the civil records? Just use names and dates, don't worry about districts.
Maybe a new hint will pop up.
Is this the Kathleen you mean?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1916/01354/1558680.pdf
Kathleen born 19 Jan.1916 at 198 Donegall Ave. Belfast, parents- John Joseph McCabe (house painter) & Alice McGrath.
-
I think that is his son John James McCabe.
I have found this.
26th Feb 1894
Kathleen Jane
Father. John Mc Cabe
35 Glen View St
Mother. Rosetta Mc Cabe. Formally Carberry ( printer). Registered 15th March 1894. Doesn’t record the father as been RIC. but fits her age recorded in 1911 census. Would need to find her death certificate now as according to my wife was early 70s in hospital where the name of Mc Kee came to light rather than Mc Cabe for whatever reason ????
-
I think that is his son John James McCabe.
I have found this.
26th Feb 1894
Kathleen Jane
Father. John Mc Cabe
35 Glen View St
Mother. Rosetta Mc Cabe. Formally Carberry ( printer). Registered 15th March 1894. Doesn’t record the father as been RIC. but fits her age recorded in 1911 census. Would need to find her death certificate now as according to my wife was early 70s in hospital where the name of Mc Kee came to light rather than Mc Cabe for whatever reason ????
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02275/1854644.pdf
-
.....................
26th Feb 1894
Kathleen Jane
Father. John Mc Cabe
35 Glen View St
Mother. Rosetta Mc Cabe. Formally Carberry
.................
From Lennon Wylie
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/efgcomplete1894.htm
Glenview Street off Oldpark Road
33. McCabe, John, printer
-
Weird that (Printer) as he was definitely in the RIC then . !!! Also very strange his friends come to collect the body for internment. Not a mention of family !!! The RIC gazette statement unofficially married is more than strange !!! Why was his police record showing him as a bachelor?? A really strange man ???
-
I don't think James McCabe, the police officer, is the problem. It's his wife Annie ..
Looking at Gaffy's post here: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=881654.msg7543132#msg7543132
The age variants between the 1901 and 1911 could very well be due to Annie filling out the 1901, and her son John James filling out the 1911.
I agree that the family in the 1901 (Burnaby St) could very well be Annie McCabe. Perhaps she took the children and left James for someone else, who could well be James McKee, a sailor, as the 1901 directory for the address of 44 Burnaby St lists it to James McKee, sailor.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bcomplete1901_2.htm
I can't find James McCabe in that directory either...
There is the pesky problem of the McKinstry name as well, on John James McCabe's 1915 marriage.
I'm drawing a blank on the sailor, James McKee, possibly due to reading far too many registers and directories! It would be ideal to find him to rule in or out that 1901 Annie and children.
-
I will have a go at finding Mc Kee through the links you have provided me with. My wife Eiiish is going to talk to her brother about the time that Kitty was admitted to the hospital and she brought her mum and dad down to the City Hospital and the name of Kitty Mc Cabe had changed to Kitty Mc Kee. Eilish is trying to recall the exact date Kitty died so that we can hopefully find it in the PRO records as we don’t know who actually buried her!!! Thank you and your fellow researchers for your efforts in trying to piece this story together. Very much appreciated.
-
Does she (your wife) know what relationship this Kitty was to her? A great aunt, or ?
-
Great Aunt .
-
Great Aunt .
I am assuming that she is Jack's sister, and as the family thought her to be a McCabe, never married?
(Sorry for the questions, but it helps fill in a few things!)
-
Yes indeed. Eilish has just confirmed this.
-
No worries Eilish is really anxious to solve this. She was always asking me to find out about her family after I had mine sorted and her mother’s side done. So thank you she and I really appreciate all your help.
-
Yes she never married.
-
Tell her to be patient.... there are several bumps in the road in her tree! :)
For example, I have found ANOTHER James McCabe R.I.C. AFTER 1902 in the same area.
I will post it all up tomorrow (it's late at night for me), but it looks more and more like Gaffy hit the nail on the head with that 1901 census McKee family.
-
Re-reading through this thread several things strike me- nothing to solve this mystery but some puzzling things to consider.
1) So far, I think, the only place which gives Annie's maiden name as McKinstry seems to be her son's marriage record. So, that could be misleading if not her maiden name.
2) If Annie was married to a police constable then to apply for a pension after his death she would likely have to have submitted paperwork to substantiate the claim (marriage record, birth or baptism records for the underage children)
3) I think that RIC men were not stationed in their home county or that of their wife. John McCabe was born in County Monaghan then stationed, mostly, in Belfast according to report of his death. Would be interesting to know where he was stationed before Belfast. However, 1911 census Annie says she was born in Coutny Antrim and children in Belfast.
-
I checked out the pension with my friend Jim Herlihy and he states.
James Mc Cabe died in service & unless he died in the line of duty he wasn’t entitled to a pension. Had he been officially married at the time of his death his widow would have got a gratuity from the RIC widow’s &Orphans Fund but she would have to prove she was married to him ‘Married’ would have had to appear on his record and not Bachelor.
I can’t get my head around the fact it says Bachelor and the Police Gazette is able to state he was married with children .!! And the children been living as Mc Kee for god knows how long. I will try and get a copy of Kittys death certificate to see if Mc Kee is on it instead of Mc Cabe which my wife knew her as. Interesting that the copy of his service record Jim gave me says he was find 10 shillings ?? 4 months before he died. Doesn’t say what for.
-
Yes, all very confusing and mysterious.
-
I think I will have to find the death certificate for Kathleen Mc Cabe or Kathleen Mc Kee , the name she used in the hospital in 1975 according to my wife who is wrestling with her brain at the minute for precise dates!!!
-
I haven’t read through this thread in full so this may be the wrong Kathleen McKee.
Strabane Chronicie.
Died 13 Dec 1975
Shopkeeper
Widow of Bernard
Formerly Callan from Carrickmacross Monaghan
Some relatives mentioned if this is the correct woman.
-
It sounds as though Kathleen McCabe/McKee wasn't married. Wonder if this might be her? (no indication if single, married, etc.)
1943 Belfast directory- McKee, Kathleen, 55 Joanmount Gardens
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/alphanames1943Mc.htm (not there in 1947)
Added- not at that address in 1939 directory.
-
Just looking in the Belfast Newspapers from 1940 there are loads of Kathleen McKee, most are married women.
There is one Kathleen McEldowney nee McCabe died 1983 Brompton Park, widow of John.
Otherwise a bit of a needle in a haystack, no joy with Joanmount.
-
I did see this death notice in the Belfast Telegraph on 7 Sept 1968. Wondered if Mary Elizabeth and Katherine were the same as from this family?
-
There are a number more death notices in this issue for Mary McKibben which name her husband and children and family. In one of them, her husband is named as the late William McKibben of Braeside, Station Road, Whiteabbey.
Surname showing on the different notices as either McKibben or McKibbin.
Monica
-
The capital 'S' for sister Katherine made me wonder if she was not only sister to Mary but also a nun?
Monica
-
Kathleen lived in 12 Donnybrook St as a friend of mine had a Belfast Street directory for 1974 and called me her name is in the directory. The problem with her name arose when she was admitted to the City Hospital and my wife dropped her her mother off to visit her and was told there was no patient by the name of Kathleen Mc Cabe but my mother in law explained that she was admitted that morning and told the receptionist the address she was told that it was Kathleen Mc Kee who was admitted!!! Now there is some sort of connection with this name as can be seen earlier in the thread and it’s quite puzzling to say the least. Thank u everyone for your contribution so far.
-
Have to add that Kathleen was never married.
-
Yes she did have sister called Mary and apparently was referred to as May. Nothing is known of Mary or May so thats a blank space as well. The name of Mc Kee relates back to Burnaby St where the family are living with a Mc Kee family and are all been referred to as Mc Kee.
-
The information was pretty consistent when Annie McCabe's death on 19 May 1936 was registered on the same day by her son J. J. McCabe of 13 Rockville Street. He registered the death under the name Annie McCabe, he reported that she died at 12 Donnybrook Street (heart disease), that her age was 69 and that she was the 'Widow of James McCabe a Constable R.I.C.'.
If you look at what street directories are available on the Lennon Wylie website, you can see that the occupier of 12 Donnybrook Street initially changed to what looks like the daughter Mary:
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/index.htm
-
By the time of the 1951 street listing for Donnybrook Street, Mary is shown next door at no. 14:
12. Pollock, Mrs. H.
14. McCabe, Miss M.
The 1955 and 1960 listings then show this:
12. Pollock, Mrs. H.
14. McKee, Miss M.
BTW, the Mrs. H Pollock was likely a widow Harriet Pollock, according to an entry in the PRONI Will Calendars: Pollock, Harriet of 12 Donnybrook Street Belfast widow died 9 July 1962 at Belfast City Hospital Belfast Probate Belfast 20 August to John Girvan presbyterian minister. Effects £1278 5s.
-
I had started a directory list before I headed off to bed so will post it anyway, although others have pointed it all out!
1894
Royal Irish Police Barracks - 17 Roden Street
1901
McKee, James, sailor 44 Burnaby St
1907
McCabe, James, R.I.C., 4 Lomond Street (not yours, I assume)
McKee, Mrs. , 12 Donnybrook Street
{44 Burnaby Street -Wilson, James, labourer}
1910
McKee, Mrs., 12 Donnybrook Street
McCabe, James, R.I.C., 4 Lomond Street (if searching via address, it is Lomond Ave, Strandtown, 4. McCabe, Jas., con. R.I.C, and again, assuming not yours)
1912
McCabe, John, painter, 12 Donnybrook Street
McCabe, Jas., R.I.C., 8 Bethany Street (not yours?)
1918
McCabe, Jas., R.I.C., 139 Madrid Street (Not yours?)
(12 Donnybrook not found in person search, only in address search: McCabe, Mrs. 12 Donnybrook St)
1924
McKee, Mrs. 12 Donnybrook St.
1932
McCabe, Mrs. 12 Donnybrook St.
1936 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/193645203/annie-mccabe
1939
McCabe, Miss M. 12 Donnybrook St.
1951
Pollock, Mrs. H. 12 Donnybrook St.
McCabe, Miss M. 14 Donnybrook St.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/dcomplete1951_b.htm
1960
Pollock, Mrs. H. 12 Donnybrook St. (died 1963, newspaper article but no civil registration found)
McKee, Miss M. 14 Donnybrook St.
-
Just for future searching, why isn't Annie McCabe's death record at https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ?
-
Just for future searching, why isn't Annie McCabe's death record at https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ ?
Vital records for N.I. counties only go up to 1921.
-
Was thinking about this thread when making the tea and going to ask about sister Mary! I did see something with McKibben come up last night so now off to see if I can find it again.
-
Vital records for N.I. counties only go up to 1921.
Thank you for that!
-
My gut says that the following is a distinct possibility.
According to that transcript of the 1915 McCabe-McGrath church marriage record, the groom's mother was Annie McKinstry. Note the following three births:
- Mary born on 3 April 1886 at 9 Blackwater Street, mother Annie McKinley (worker wareroom), no father given, information provided by Margaret Madden of 14 Ton Street, present at birth:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02606/1962500.pdf
- John James born on 3 October 1888 at 9 Blackwater Street, father James McKinley a fireman, mother Annie McKinley formerly McKinstry, information provided by Margaret Madden of 44 McDonnell Street, present at birth:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02498/1926689.pdf
- Kathleen born on 18 May 1891 at 3 Fifth Street, mother Annie McKinley (wareroom worker), no father given, information provided by Margaret Madden of 50 McDonnell Street, present at birth:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02392/1892195.pdf
I'll see if there are any baptismal records...
-
I'll see if there are any baptismal records...
Yes, there are corresponding baptisms, according to the transcripts:
- Mary Josephine McKinley was baptised in St. Peter's Belfast on 8 April 1886 for parents John McKinley and Anne McKinley of 9 Blackwater Street, the sponsor was Margaret Madden;
- John James McKinley was baptised in St. Paul's Belfast on 21 October 1888 for mother Annie McKinley of 9 Blackwater Street, the name of the father was not given, the sponsor was Margaret Madden;
- Catherine McKinley was baptised in St. Peter's Belfast on 21 May 1891 for parents James McKinley and Ann McKinley of 3 Fifth Street, the sponsor was Margaret Madden.
-
That must be the children's entries, Gaffy. Well done on finding those ;)
Hard and confusing searches with all the varying surnames etc. Margaret Madden features strongly in those entries. Struggle to see her so far on the 1901 census.
Monica
-
Any chance this could be Margaret Madden in 1901 or is the fact she was born Co. Monaghan just co-incidence?
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton/Adela_Street/960101/
Edward Madden's sister Ellen died 1921-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1921/05086/4395940.pdf
Marriage of Edward Madden (father Edward, farmer) & Margaret (nurse)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10799/5938629.pdf
-
Any chance this could be Margaret Madden in 1901 or is the fact she was born Co. Monaghan just co-incidence?
The first baptism is 1886, and that Margaret didn't marry a Madden until the following year. The occupation "nurse" would have been great, though.... I was wondering if Margaret could have been the local midwife.
A question..... would not have John James, Kathleen, and Mary, at some point in their lives, needed to show birth registration?
-
A question..... would not have John James, Kathleen, and Mary, at some point in their lives, needed to show birth registration?
Quite possibly not.
-
- Catherine McKinley was baptised in St. Peter's Belfast on 21 May 1891 for parents James McKinley and Ann McKinley of 3 Fifth Street, the sponsor was Margaret Madden.
This attached might be merely coincidental as McKee is such a common name.
It is from the Belfast News-Letter dated 29 June 1891
-
There are so many things happening and the links are not to far apart street wise with people who may be part of the past history of the Mc Cabe story. My wife and I are going to have a look at Donnybrook Street and other streets that were mentioned in the search for this story. That little paper clip is interesting as it gives a picture of people lodging in those houses. The strange changeing of a surname from Mc Kee to Mc Cabe over time has really puzzled us. In the police record we got it describes Mc Cabe as 18 and a farmer ?? Is it possible to check out his family connections in Monaghan and where they buried him ? Thinking if maybe there are descendants still there who could shed some light on the story.
-
My wife thinks that Margaret Madden was a midwife.
-
I've been working on this again and not much further forward but putting details found so far into chronological order does make sense of a few things, I think, so bear with me as it might take more than one post to write it all out.
c1867 Annie ‘McKinstry’ born (age according to death reg. 1936)
Missing Annie’s ‘marriage’ to John McKinley
1886, 3 Apr.- Mary McKinley born 9 Blackwater St. (mother- Annie McKinley, worker wareroom; informant- Margret Madden, 14 Ton St.** https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02606/1962500.pdf
1886, 8 Apr.- Mary Josephine McKinley bapt. St. Peter’s (parents- John & Anne McKinley, 9 Blackwater St., spons. Margaret Madden) **Note: Ton St., small houses, off McDonnell St.
1888, 3 Oct.- John James McKinley born 9 Blackwater St. (parents- James McKinley (fireman) & Annie formerly McKinstry; informant- Margaret Madden, 44 McDonnell St.**) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02498/1926689.pdf
1888, 21 Oct.- John James McKinley bapt. St. Paul’s (parents- Annie McKinley, 9 Blackwater St., spons. Margaret Madden)
1890 directory- https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bcomplete1890.htm (9 Blackwater St.) and https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bcomplete1890.htm (3 Fifth St.)- not at either address
1891, 18 May- Kathleen McKinley born 3 Fifth St. (mother- Annie McKinley (wareroom worker); informant- Margaret Madden, 50 McDonnell St.) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02392/1892195.pdf
1891, 21 May- Catherine McKinley bapt. St. Peter’s (parents- James & Ann McKinley, 3 Fifth St., spons. Margaret Madden)
1891, 29 June- newspaper clipping- 3 Fifth St., house of Mrs. McKee mentions Margaret Madden (reply #77)
1893, 9 June- stillborn child of James & Annie McKee, 3 Fifth St. buried Belfast City Cemetery
-
1901 directory- James McKee, sailor, 44 Burnaby St.
1901 census (31 Mar.)- https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/St__Anne_s/Burnaby_Street/982126/ Annie McKee (c1863 Co.Antrim, hemstitcher at home); Mary McKee (c1897 Belfast); John J. McKee (c1900 Belfast); Kathleen McKee (c1902 Belfast)
Missing Annie’s ‘marriage’ to James McCabe
1902, Sept.- death of James McCabe, RIC, bachelor https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1902/05689/4603510.pdf (clipping “though not officially known he was married and leaves a wife and family”, from & buried Co.Monaghan, reply #30)
1907 directory- Mrs. McKee, 12 Donnybrook St. (also 1910)
1911 census (Apr.1)- https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Windsor/Donnybrook_Street/157261/ Annie McCabe (widow c1867 Co.Antrim); Mary McCabe (c1890 Belfast, handkerchief _ folder); John James McCabe (c1892 Belfast, house painter); Kathleen McCabe (bc1894 Belfast, office asst.)
1912 directory- John McCabe, painter, 12 Donnybrook St.
1915- McCabe/McGrath marriage- groom’s parents- James McCabe RIC & Annie McKinstry
1918 directory- Mrs. McCabe, 12 Donnybrook St. (also 1924, 1932)
1936, 19 May- death of Annie McCabe, age 69, died 12 Donnybrook St. “widow of James McCabe a Constable R.I.C.” registered by son J.J. McCabe, 13 Rockville St.
1939 directory- Miss M. McCabe, 12 Donnybrook St. (also 1951)
1960 directory- Miss M. McKee, 14 Donnybrook St.
1968, 8 Sept.- death of Mary Elizabeth McKibben of 28 Station Rd. Whiteabbey, husband William & children (clipping- sister Kathleen; 26 Hawthorne Ave. Carrickfergus)- reply #58
1974 directory- Kathleen McCabe 12 Donnybrook St.
-
Looking at the snippet about James McCabe, RIC, having a wife, I wondered if he was actually married to someone other than Annie. Confined my search to Belfast registration district and this is the only one I found (may not be the same James McCabe)-
James McCabe (policeman) m. Anna Meek (teacher)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10848/5960751.pdf
Article said "wife and family" which sounds like more than 1 child but couldn't find any children born to this couple in N.I. counties (GRONI's database). Perhaps Annie McKinstry/McKinley/McKee was the wife in question although we still haven't found a marriage for them.
Added- went through Valuation Revision Books to check 9 Blackwater St., 3 Fifth St. and 44 Burnaby St. for any sign of Annie etc. but nothing noted in any of the books for the relevant periods.
-
That is incredible, all day we have talked about this and Eilish spoke to her cousin in England as she spent more time in the grand parents house than my wife. Her cousin said she knew of the name changes of Mc Kee and mentioned out of wedlock etc but it was not mentioned in detail in front of her. Can you summarise what you think has really happened. I am most grateful to you and your colleagues for all your help and I know from the past you have helped me with my family of which I am very appreciative. G
-
I know we thought Annie and family went back and forth using different surnames, etc. but looking at it all in date order she was fairly consistent (for a little while each time at least).
I did find a possible birth IF she was Annie McKinstry and born c1867 (which may or may not be true)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03489/2282488.pdf
She possibly came to Belfast for work if she was born elsewhere in County Antrim (as in 1901 and 1911). Maybe aged about 20 when she had an illegitimate daughter Mary in 1886 (according to Mary's birth record) although church records lists Mary's father as John McKinley. Next child is John in 1888 (birth certificate lists father as James (not John) McKinley, fireman). Third child, Kathleen, born 1891 at 3 Fifth St. Wonder is she & Mr. McKinley have parted company because now she and children are McKee.
Then, we have death of James McCabe in 1902 but she's still McKee (up to 1910 directory). In 1911 census she and children are McCabe. Son John marries as McCabe but a good while after Annie dies the daughters are back to the McKee surname.
Just thought of something else to check ...
-
There is always the possibility that the James McCabe dying in 1902 is not the right one. There is that other RIC officer in the directories in Reply #66, who would fit somewhat better in the timeline?
-
Though about that also but nothing, so far, explains why we can't find a marriage. Also, there's that strange mention of an unknown wife for the James who died in 1902.
-
Have eliminated Mary Elizabeth McKibben (died Whiteabbey in 1968) from this family- see replies 58 and 59.
Death registration gives Mary McKibbin as age 89 (so born c1879), death notice mentions son-in-law and husband was William. I checked marriage from 1911 onwards and nothing for a William McKibbin to a Mary McCabe/McKee/McKinley. Also, the correct Mary was baptised Mary Josephine not Mary Elizabeth. Lastly, M. McKee appears in Belfast directory until 1960.
-
Found where Annie is buried! Belfast City Cemetery- Glenalina Extension (G1 334)
Annie McCabe, 12 Donnybrook St., age 69, died 19 May 1936 (matches death registration).
https://online.belfastcity.gov.uk/find-burial-records/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6607.10167
Unfortunately no one else listed in plot :-\
-
Stillborn child of James & Annie McKee, 3 Fifth St in 1893!
https://online.belfastcity.gov.uk/find-burial-records/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7297.1977
-
We will visit the grave of Annie this week. City Cemetery is about 15 minutes from us.
-
I had listed Annie's grave entry in Findagrave back in reply 66, and was surprised with both the grave and newspaper notice being as "McCabe".
Could it be when the McCabe name was used, it was the son John James, doing the paper work for his mother, whether it be her burial, or directory/ house lease, etc, and the entire rest of the family used McKee?
-
Certainly causing ripples around my wife’s side of the family today.
Earlier we visited Donnybrook st and found no 14 but no 12 had been demolished and a small office building is in its place. It gave us an insight into the area this family moved around in.
-
I had listed Annie's grave entry in Findagrave back in reply 66, and was surprised with both the grave and newspaper notice being as "McCabe".
Could it be when the McCabe name was used, it was the son John James, doing the paper work for his mother, whether it be her burial, or directory/ house lease, etc, and the entire rest of the family used McKee?
Minimal detail on Find A Grave entry but cemetery link shows address, plot number, etc. It's nice to think family are visiting Annie's grave even if there turns out to be no headstone there.
I think you are right about John James putting McCabe name down as he obviously continued to use it as his surname. He was born & baptised as McKinley in 1888, by 1893 his mother was with James McKee but in 1911 the family are McCabe so John James certainly was old enough to remember other surnames.
-
Did Mc Cabe actually marry their mother ?? So they could use the name Mc Cabe?? Is Mc Kee the father of some of the children?? Forgive I am a bit lost now!!
-
My thinking of the moment is, James McKee is an alias for James McCabe for whatever reason.
Somewhere back in these posts, someone mentioned that RIC couldn't work in the same county where they or their spouse was born. Perhaps you could run that by Jim?
Could it be as simple as Annie refused to move? I doubt it, but ... we didn't live in those times, so it's hard to know! I would think it more an issue of one of them being previously married.
After Aghadowey posted about the stillborn baby, I went back to Findagrave, and there is an entry there for the little one. Searching for all "Infant McKee" entries, I noticed the Findagrave memorial ID numbers were all sequential for all the stillborn babes, so the cemetery must have a section just for that... perhaps because they were not baptized? Anyways, have a look-see while you are at the cemetery. I doubt they have markers though.
Edit to add Findagrave link: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/195608939/infant-mckee
-
Found the post, it was Aghadowey pondering the work issue of birth counties:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=881654.msg7544151#msg7544151
-
I'm also wondering if James McKee is James McCabe :-\
The stillborn infant was buried in public ground so there will be no marker. It is possible that there's an infants' section or possible that infants/stillborn children were buried in casket of a random burial same day.
-
I have just searched marriages in Belfast registration district from 1884-1889 (almost 900 of them) for anyone named Annie but didn't find anything useful. This is still this marriage I mentioned earlier- John McCabe, policeman, to Anna Meek but she's a teacher.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10848/5960751.pdf
-
I keep wondering about Annie Meek as well.
I just had a thought about the baptism names.... but I am heading off so I can't check it out at the moment:
If Annie and James are pretending to be Mr and Mrs McKee, you really don't want to be giving fake names to the Church. So, as we believe Annie to be a McKinstry..... could she be giving her parents surnames?? Still a lie, but not as massive as giving a name that is neither parent?
The article with the Margaret Madden on 5th street...... if that is Annie, did their relationship falter, but she had to keep up the ruse of being Mrs McKee?
This is all just guessing, which shouldn't be done in family history but if we can guess the story, we might be able to figure out what to look for.
-
Mc Cabe was appointed RIC on the 7/6/1878 and served in Meath until 31/1/1879 then transferred to Belfast 15/11/1880 ade on joining 18yrs 2 months. Trade or calling Farmer. Fined 10 shillings 14/4/1902 died 27/8/-1902 from acute pneumonia cardiac syncope.
-
Jim Herlihy has just confirmed that if you married a person from the County your serve in then you are transferred to another county.
-
Next time you are speaking to him could you ask him to clarify the situation if the officer is stationed in Belfast but the wife from somewhere else in County Antrim but living in Belfast.
From the little we know, the RIC seemed to think James McCabe was unmarried up until the time he died. Article mentions wife and family (Annie and her three surviving children?) but if Annie was to get some sort of payment when James died I think she would have had to either show a marriage certificate or at the very least provide details of any such marriage (date and place).
Added- checked for marriage in Scotland in case they married there but nothing showing on Scotland's People.
-
Yes I was chatting to Jim this morning and he told me that it was odd the police gazette was able to state he was unofficially married with a family and children!! Jim did explain that police who married a person within the county the worked were normally transferred and this happened to my own granddad who was moved to Kerry after he married my granny from the Falls Road. Getting any pension apparently depended having your service endorsed as married on your record otherwise James’s wife would definitely had to produce documents of marriage. Jim calls with me a lot and I will show him all the information you and your colleagues have provided. He is interested in the outcome of this especially the police angle. Many thanks once again for your continuing help which is much appreciated.
-
FindmyPast has a few Belfast directories that the other sites don't seem to have. Although they say they are indexed, hahaha... no they are not. After a few thousand page flips, I finally found something of interest.
Remember the sailor from Burnaby Street? A bit of that post here, for a reminder:
I agree that the family in the 1901 (Burnaby St) could very well be Annie McCabe. Perhaps she took the children and left James for someone else, who could well be James McKee, a sailor, as the 1901 directory for the address of 44 Burnaby St lists it to James McKee, sailor.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bcomplete1901_2.htm
I can't find James McCabe in that directory either...
I'm drawing a blank on the sailor, James McKee, possibly due to reading far too many registers and directories! It would be ideal to find him to rule in or out that 1901 Annie and children.
Guess where sailor McKee lived in 1895?
Yep... 3 Fifth Street. ;D
If it is indeed James McCabe as we suspect, what a great alias... When he has to stay at the barracks, Annie just says he is at sea!
Edit: As a reminder, 3 Fifth St. was Annie's address on one or more baptisms of her children.
-
Brilliant, what a find that is. This really is getting into unfolding a really strange family history. So has Mc Cabe been having children outside normal marriage and they are growing up with different names ??
-
I don't know if the whole story will ever be known, but it really is starting to look like, for whatever reason, Annie and James McCabe didn't marry, but having him at the same address is hinting that at least the two youngest children, John James and Kathleen, are his.
It could be a matter of the girls growing up with the name McKee, and as they didn't marry so never had cause to give a father's name, just carried on with it. John James preferred to use his real father's name, not an alias.
This is only a guess though!
I will finish looking through the directories in a few days.... too much staring at the screen today!
-
Actually, all 3 children should be his.... I just rechecked Gaffy's great find of the births, and the oldest, Mary, was born 1886.
-
So if they never married was Annie really a Mc Kinley ??
-
I have no idea where she came up with McKinley, unless she married him at some earlier point in her life, and we can't find it. If he had left her, she would still be stuck as "married", and unable to marry again.
-
1892 Directory has "Mrs. McKee" at 3 Fifth Street.
-
The police gazette states that his friends from Monaghan came up to collect his body for internment. Is it possible to see where he was buried and were there any death notifications in the papers about his death from family.
-
There was nothing I could see in the papers, and I did take a look for a burial, but didn't see one.
It's very odd that they did that; one would think Annie would have tried to stop it. (or maybe she just couldn't afford to bury him).
-
Now that is strange, you would have thought he would have close relations there?? His background on the police service record is Farmer ? and he was 18 and 4 months on appointment. Very young and he must have had at least one parent etc living. ?
-
Somehow I'm not surprised that James McKee the sailor is James McCabe the policeman ::) Well done bbart ;D
Regarding James McCabe's Co. Monaghan connection- the clipping sounds as though fellow policeman accompanied the body back to Monaghan for burial (as a sort of guard of honour) and he could quite possibly be buried with family there. It's possible that one or both parents were already dead. He may or may not have had siblings.
There may well have been an announcement of his death in the local Monaghan paper but it's possible that paper/issue is not online.
Do we know what religion James McCabe was? if Protestant perhaps one reason he and Annie didn't marry.
Off to Monaghan (in a manor of speaking) to check on a few things I saw earlier :)
-
Yes James was RC but Eilish was talking to her cousin in England last night and as I said earlier on she was always in and out of Rockville St and she told Eilish that she believed Annie was a Protestant from Ballynure . Now I do know it was let’s say now popular in those days at all. !! I know that from my own background my father was English and C of E . However it was not popular for mixed marriages back then.
-
Interesting to hear mention of Ballynure as I did find a birth registration for an Annie McKinstry born in Ballynure (reply #84)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03489/2282488.pdf
-
Yes I seen that ok and after the conversation Eilish had with Kate last night I thought that has to be a connection.
-
Interesting to hear mention of Ballynure as I did find a birth registration for an Annie McKinstry born in Ballynure (reply #84)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03489/2282488.pdf
Looks like we have to rule this one out. John McKinstry (d.1899), grocer/merchant, m.(1851) Elizabeth Hetherington. According to 1911 census there were 8 children (7 living).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1851/09411/5409399.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05784/4635650.pdf
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ballynure/Toberdowney/991149/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ballynure/Toberdowney/189670/ (m.47 yrs/. 8 ch./7 liv.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05284/4468148.pdf
Daughter Annie McKinstry married Harry Lennon-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1894/10568/5850150.pdf
Henry & Annie in 1901 & 1911-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ballynure/Ballylaggan/990911/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ballycor/Ballyboley/189280/
Family tree says she died in 1941-
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/MYY5-BNS
Lennon Henry of Ballyboley Ballynure county Antrim labourer died 27 January 1926 Administration Belfast 26 April to Annie Lennon the widow. Effects £196.
Lennon Annie of Ballynure county Antrim widow died 7 November 1941 Probate Belfast 18 January to John Wilson and John McKinstry farmers. Effects £1438 1s.
-
Yes see that’s not a viable connection now. Really is a head spinner this period in the Mc Cabe family !!
-
At least you can't say your wife's family history isn't interesting ;D
-
I am certainly mesmerised now ok. I remember when we were going together back in 1966, we visited her granny’s a couple of times and she always gave us a bowl of lentil soup. lol I have printed everything out since the thread started and Eilish has put it altogether in a file with copious notes beside everything. An incredible journey underway now to try and get a handle on the life of McCabe and his family.
-
Any idea of what might have become of any old photo albums, address books, or the like, of E's granny?
-
Eilish has asked her cousin in England to take photos of any papers photos she may have relating to their granny and granddad and WhatsApp them to her. Apparently her cousin was very close her grandparents as explained earlier and was very aware of the change of the names Mc Kee etc. E was never aware of this apart from the incident at the hospital.
-
Hopefully the cousin can turn something up then!
On the RIC record for James McCabe, under the column "Native County", both Fermanagh and Monaghan are written, which is baffling me. There are a few other men on the record that have two places written in that column, but one is usually a city or townland.
Perhaps I just need a geography lesson on Co. Monaghan, but I'm hoping to narrow down the "where he was from" issue!
The C after Fermanagh is in the religion column, just for clarification on the attached clip. Perhaps it means he was from one county but signed up in another? ???
-
I will check that out with Jim Herlihy tomorrow for you. I dare say Jim will be enjoying a pint tonight lol thank you for staying with this story and Eilish passes on her thanks to the team.
-
- John James born on 3 October 1888 at 9 Blackwater Street, father James McKinley a fireman, mother Annie McKinley formerly McKinstry, information provided by Margaret Madden of 44 McDonnell Street, present at birth:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02498/1926689.pdf
....and living at 9 Blackwater Street in the 1887 directory is James McKee, fireman.
Gah!
-
I've been dipping in and out of this, interested to see each new find. What actually happened remains inconclusive, but there are multiple scenarios one can speculate about. At this point, in the absence of having found any marriages in the permutation of surnames arising thus far, I'm inclined to think that Annie didn't marry anyone.
Because of John James' 1888 civil birth registration and the church record of his 1915 marriage, I'm inclined to think that Annie was born a McKinstry. But as to what ensued, I think one can't rule out some measure of fabrication on her part. On face value, she may have had relationships with a John/James McKinley, with a James McKee and a James McCabe, producing three children out of wedlock from one or more of those relationships. In another scenario, John/James McKinley and Annie's use of that surname may be a fabrication for her births from 1886-1891, a cover story for her relationship with McKee or McCabe, names which endure down the line (which McKinley doesn't). In another scenario, James McKee may be one and the same person as James McCabe. This has proven to be a VERY interesting topic and Annie is something of an enigma.
-
Jack Mc Cabe appears to be a very elusive character lol I see he is a farmer in the service record from Monaghan?? but may have connections with Fermanagh?? My daughters husbands family have connections in Fermanagh there for many years. I will ask her on the chance that her in-laws might know something.
-
It is all very confusing and each new bit of information seems to almost clear things up yet throw up more questions!
I can't remember Fermanagh being mentioned before- have I forgotten or missed something?
-
At the top of his RIC record it has Monaghan and underneath Fermanagh. I asked Jim about this and he said the first is entry is his Native County and the second is where either one of his parents or family members have connections. It can also mean the county he was enlisted from which is his case because the DI was stationed in Enniskilling.
-
Jim has just come back to me . He states the Mc Cabe would have to be known personally by the DI and in this case he is definitely from Inniskilling ????
-
The second county listed can also mean the county from where he enlisted as was his case because the recommending person was a DI stationed in Enniskillen & had to be personally known to him. He is definitely from the Enniskillen area.
-
Not sure if someone has already posted this, but the Roden Street Barracks census return in 1901 shows the birth place of a 41 year old unmarried Catholic constable 'J M' - possibly the same chap as the James McCabe who died in 1902 - as Co. Fermanagh:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000307133/
-
Another good find. I had originally searched for him in barracks with birthplace as Monaghan since Fermanagh hadn't been mentioned at that point. Interestingly clipping mentioned burial in Monaghan.
-
Yes I can see how difficult things can be when his service record shows Monaghan first then Fermanagh and Jim at first thought that the DI recommendation was for that county but he was able to find additional information that showed the DI was actually in Inniskilling !! Patience of saint needed for the job you do.
-
Hi everyone, firstly many thanks for the fantastic effort in trying to sort out the story of Annie ? and James Mc Cabe. I guess we shall ever know what happened back then and the only people who did know are now deceased. A few days ago we received the only surviving photo of the people involved from my wife’s cousin in England. The photo includes Kitty May and John Mc Cabe who buried Annie as Mc Cabe in 1936. If it is permissible as all in the photo are a deceased I will try and post it but I will only do this if it doesn’t break any rules. Thank you everyone for all your help. G
-
No problem posting the photo here and it would be lovely to see it as we feel we practically know them now ;D
-
Kitty on left large hat with sister May behind her. John Mc Cabe with his wife Alice to the right with their children. The child in the centre is my wife’s dad James Mc Cabe and the child to the right with mop of black hair is James big brother Jack.
-
1901 directory- James McKee, sailor, 44 Burnaby St.
1901 census (31 Mar.)- https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/St__Anne_s/Burnaby_Street/982126/ Annie McKee (c1863 Co.Antrim, hemstitcher at home); Mary McKee (c1897 Belfast); John J. McKee (c1900 Belfast); Kathleen McKee (c1902 Belfast)
How could the 1901 census include Kathleen, born c.1902??
-
A comment about the "mystery" of James McCabe the RIC man and his unofficial wife, as mentioned in his obituary notice.
My understanding - not 100% certain, but I believe this to be accurate - is that RIC constables needed permission to marry (officially that is). They had to be in the force for a certain length of time (7 years?), but also, I seem to recall, there may have been some vetting involved. That is, the prospective wife had to be of good character.
Would Annie have been considered to have met such a standard, if she had children by a previous relationship, or relationships? I doubt it.
That led to the situation where RIC constables would marry, but not officially - meaning their marriage was not noted in the official RIC records. Or perhaps, as in this case, not marrying at all.
-
Lovely photo, Gerry. Thanks for posting it; as Aghadowey pointed out, it's like we know them now! I was hoping that was Annie, not Kitty, sitting on the ground; she looks so much older than her siblings!
I don't know if your wife is interested in using a DNA approach. It would be a lot of work for you, and some expense. It won't sort out who was living with who in the McKee/McCabe confusion, but it may jump you over the confusing generation, to see what names pop up in a generation before them, just to get the right surnames. It will not answer the question of whether or not Kitty and May were full siblings to Jack. There is a dedicated DNA board on this forum to help you, should you both decide to go this route. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/ancestral-family-tree-dna-testing/
Back to the photo, though!
To me, looking at their faces, it seems that just in the very moment the picture was taken, Aunt May has a sly grin, and must have said something funny to make everyone smile, but the niece beside her with her big grin, was about to break out in laughter over it. Mother Alice is saying "shhhh!" Meanwhile, little James has a cookie hidden in his hands; probably a bribe to keep him still for the picture!
-
I have thought in recent days about James Mc Cabe the RIC man. The RIC gazette said friends from Monaghan came and collected him for his interment. My friend Jim Herlihy says he was known to the DI in Enniskilling and lived there. If he had family there and there are relatives still there I wonder if they know the story of James Mc Cabe and Annie. As I drove to Lisburn yesterday I passed a road called Mc Kinstry Road and immediately thought of Annie. This road is within 15 minutes of the area she lived. I suppose I am becoming paranoid now about this story.
-
Great photo, it brings the names to life. For me it also serves to reinforce the passage of time, if we're correct about constable James McCabe, then at the time of that photo in the mid 1920s he was already an unknown, Alice never met him and as far as the children were concerned, it was down to whatever, if anything at all, that their father John told them about him. Fast forward about 100 years from that photo and it's no wonder we're struggling to make sense of it all.
-
There is one last ditched attempt I came across, but couldn't connect the dots to make any true connection, and truly believe only DNA research will help sort it out:
Somewhere many posts ago, Gaffy posted the births/baptisms, and from memory, only John James' stated the McKinstry name, and he was the only one that had a father listed, a fireman.
When Annie lived on Fifth Street, less than a one minute walk from her house (according to Google maps), was a William McKinstry, and his wife and many kids. He was a fireman. He was about 20 years older than Annie, so maybe a much older brother? He was not her father, of that I was sure, but I can't remember why! He was not RC, maybe Methodist. (Sorry, my old notes aren't handy). He and his family lived on Conway Street for years and years. He was born out of county, but must have gone to Belfast as a young man, as he married there.
I went down a lot of rabbit holes with this family, but maybe someone else wants to take a peek at them.
-
That looks a really good find on the Mc Kinstry connection BBart. Don’t think that has been mentioned before plus the possible Methodist connection which falls into the conversation between my wife and her cousin who stated that she wasn’t a catholic. Brilliant thank you.
-
If we're talking about rabbit holes, here's another one I encountered a while back where my efforts came to naught. In short, when a William Byrne married a Mary Irwin in St. Malachy's Belfast in December 1919, one of the witnesses was a John J McCabe:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09691/5515169.pdf
After some digging, I found a baptismal record for the same William Byrne in St. Peter's Belfast in March 1898, I say 'the same' because the baptismal record actually says that he went on to marry Mary Irwin in St. Malachy's in 1919, critically, his mother's surname was recorded as McKinstry. Here was William in his family in 1901 and the marriage of his parents - John Byrne and Mary Anne McKinstry - in St. Peter's Belfast in 1887:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Falls/Ton_Street/952509/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10816/5944891.pdf
So at this point I was thinking, was Mary Anne McKinstry a sister of Annie and was John J. McCabe therefore witnessing the marriage of William Byrne as his cousin? Unfortunately, it all started to drift away from that likelihood, for the church record of that 1887 marriage identified Mary Anne McKinstry's parents as John McKinstry and Mary (Hanna) Gannon, who were married in the Church of Ireland church in Lurgan Co. Armagh in 1868:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1868/11458/8210574.pdf
I could neither find a birth to this couple for a daughter Annie, nor did the Lurgan Co. Armagh geography gel with the birthplace of Co. Antrim that Annie gave in both the 1901 and 1911 censuses. But if anyone can see something that I've missed to rule it all back in, feel free.
-
We went to the City Cemetery where Annie has been buried. Thanks to the staff there they brought us to a grave she was buried. The strange thing is the grave details is not on their system as it is on the council records. The other problem was there are a lot of unmarked graves in that area as well as damaged headstones. The manager found a grave which had a number on it and from that he paced out to grave . 334. It was a grave with a twisted iron bars going into 4 concrete pillars.The grave had a very large tree growing right out of the centre which I questioned the manager on about as she was buried in 1936 !! But he insisted that was hers and only one person was buried there. The remains of a small stone tablet was buried in the grass which was attached to the grave was unreadable. However we will go back and try and make something of it. They then brought us to the other Grave of which we thought might be Mary Mc Cabe but from what we seen there was 2 others there a Maud and Frederick Mc Cabe which didn’t fit in. I am now looking for the name Mary Mc Kee and Kathleen Mc Kee as looked through all the street directories and they were using that name from 1955 onwards as well as 1910-24. The hospitable incident of Mc Cabe where Kitty had her name as Mc Kee. We are going to the Milltown Cemetery next week to see Eilish’s Grandad and her Granny’s grave as her cousin said there might be 5 people in a grave there. Will let you know what we find out.
-
One other item came up yesterday was that when Kathleen ( Kitty) Mc Kee (Mc Cabe) died she left all her worldly goods to my wife’s Aunt Kathleen Mc Cullough nee Mc Cabe . Would Kitty have had a will made out for this?? and if so what name would she have used??
-
One other item came up yesterday was that when Kathleen ( Kitty) Mc Kee (Mc Cabe) died she left all her worldly goods to my wife’s Aunt Kathleen Mc Cullough nee Mc Cabe . Would Kitty have had a will made out for this?? and if so what name would she have used??
Did this come from PRONI's Will Extracts? If so, can you post the full details. It may be that Kathleen McCullough was named as executor (for a Will) or administrator of the estate (if there was no valid Will) but not that Kitty left everything to Kathleen.
-
My wife Eilish told me that her Aunt Kathleen had told the rest of the family Kitty had left her money but it wasn’t a lot plus her Jewellery. From what I can gather Eilish’s father and his brother weren’t to happy about it. We were trying to work out when Kitty died in the City Hospital when she had checked in as Mc Kee and not Mc Cabe and was she buried as Mc Kee ?? As I said earlier we are going to Milltown Cemetery in the morning to try and locate the grave of her granny and grandad and see who exactly is buried there. One wee Question I have is the grave of Annie in the City Cemetery is recorded in detail in the Council records and there is a fee of £1.50 for a copy. Would this provide more detail information about her ??
-
The grave of Mary Mc Cabe had 2 other names one was Maud Mc Cabe died 1937 age 28 the other was Fredrick Mc Cabe but the head stone was smashed and we couldn’t see any other details. Is it possible to see her death certificate to rule out a connection??
-
You'll need to view Maud's death certificate on GRONI's site (pay per view).
Belfast Telegraph, 13 Sept.1955: McCabe- September 12, 1955 (suddenly), Frederick McCabe, dearly-beloved husband of Mary McCabe, 23 French Park St. Deeply regretted by his son and daughter-in-law, Joseph and Rosin McCabe, also grandchildren. 81 Beechmount Bungalows.
Could the Mary McCabe in that plot be Frederick's wife Mary?
Added-
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Feb.1963: McCabe- February 11, 1963, at her son-in-law's residence, 36 Moltke Street, Mary, dearly beloved wife of the late Frederick McCabe.
Notice on 11 Feb. says Mary died at her residence so looks like she could have been living with her daughter.
1964 there's an In Memorium Notice for Frederick and Mary inserted by their daughter and son-in-law Mabel & Maurice Fitzsimmons and granddaughter Elizabeth of 36 Moltke St.
-
Mabel Fitzsimmons and husband Maurice West Fitzsimmons both died 1972-
https://online.belfastcity.gov.uk/find-burial-records/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8379.7447
https://online.belfastcity.gov.uk/find-burial-records/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8383.7851
-
Birth of Mabel McCabe gives her parents as Frederick McCabe & Mary Brown-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01494/1607712.pdf
In 1911 Frederick & Mary have a two year old daughter Maud-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Laganview_Street/219112/
-
Maud McCabe born 2 November 1908. MMN Browne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01637/1654646.pdf
-
After all that Eilish is reminds me the census says she was single. I tried to put a picture of Annie’s grave site with the large tree right in the centre of it but I have exceeded the limit for posting of it. I have asked Jim Herlihy if he can get further information on the whereabouts of the burial of James Mc Cabe RIC .
-
We have located Mary (Mc Cabe/Mc Kee in the Milltown Cemetery. The heading on the headstone is Mc Kee Mc Cabe. Underneath this is In loving Memory of
May (Mary) the dearly beloved sister of John and Kathleen. Died 17th Dec 1960.
No surname of either Mc Kee or Mc Cabe is used. We were told that the person who purchased the grave was her sister Kathleen (Kitty) Mc Kee . We have been told there is a total of 4 people in the grave but it’s not Eilish’s grandad and his wife Alice. So to find out who is in there we had to pay £25 for the complete search which we should have by Tuesday. I will update the story then. Our next step will be to locate Eilish’s grandmother and her husband John Mc Cabe who buried his mother Annie in the Belfast City Cemetery.
-
GRONI's site is back online again and here's Mary's death registration under McKee-
D/1960/82/1007/11/444 Mary McKee 17th December 1960 67 Female Belfast
Also searched with surname McCabe in case both names appear on registration but only McKee comes up.
-
Many thanks for that as we don’t have anything back from Milltown about who actually is in the grave and we were wondering who is using the name Mc Kee or Mc Cabe since the headstone has Mc Kee/Mc Cabe ?? Annie’s grave in the City Cemetery which is literally a few minutes away on the other side of the with a large tree in the middle !! We are going back to measure the circumference of the tree and dividing whatever it is by the recommended 2.5 to get a rough idea of its age for someone dying in 1936. Will let you know how we get on. Eilish thinks that John James Mc Cabe and his wife Alice are in a separate grave either in Milltown or in the City Cemetery. John James according to Eilish must have died 1953-1969 . We in 1962 and I remember meeting Alice her granny then but not John James. Alice must have died around 1967 as we got married then and she wasn’t at the wedding. It could be Eilish’s dad’s sister Eileen and her husband Michael Mc Cullough are buried with the 2 sisters May and Kitty Mc Kee. So really the headstone of Mc Kee/Mc Cabe doesn’t reflect who is in it. ??
-
Belfast City Cemetery burials will be searchable here-
https://online.belfastcity.gov.uk/find-burial-records/
Possibilities?
Alice McCabe, age 74, died 20 May 1966
John McCabe, age 75, died 1 Jun 1966
Added- this site also good-
https://discovereverafter.com/
-
At last confirmation of the people in the grave in Milltown.
Lease was to Kathleen Mc Kee. Thought they could provided an address but will call and see them if there is one.
Note the age quoted are a mile out.
Mary (May) Mc Kee died Royal Victoria Hospital Age 67
Burial 19 Dec 1960
Kathleen Mc Kee (Kitty) died Royal Victoria Hospital Age 91
Burial burial 20th March 1988
John James Mc Cabes daughter Kathleen Mc Cullough nee Mc Cabe died
Beaconsfield Nursing Home.Burial 6th April 1991
Her Husband Michael Mc Cullough died City Hospital age 93 on the 23rd March 1999.
Well we know for sure that the girls preferred the name Mc Kee !! and their brother used Mc Cabe.
Eilish my wife thinks her Gran Alice Mc Cabe may have survived her husband by quite a bit !! The other bit of information we got was Alice had 2 sisters one was married to a Duffy and lived in Rockville Street where she died and another called Maggie who lived in Iveagh Street and wasn’t married. Where they buried with Alice their sister?? and John James is buried elsewhere??? but that’s muddying the waters so we will asked the office at Milltown to check out if they have both buried together???
-
You are getting on well :)
Marriage of John James McCabe and Alice McGrath-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09808/5561396.pdf
Alice's address 21 Ormeau St. (1912 & 1918 directories list Arthur Webb there)
-
Great job on the cemetery hunting, Gerry!
I'm hoping someone can figure this out:
The indexes for workhouse records are online at PRONI, and many sites are saying that if you find your person, you can (hopefully) find that individual's records.
This link explains the how-to:
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2022/01/proni-releases-index-to-belfasts-poor.html
...and it says With the date of admission, register number, name and age of an individual, you should be able to locate the corresponding original records held by PRONI
I followed their instructions for James McCabe, as he died in the workhouse, and did find his information, but what now? I can't see where in PRONI you enter this?? Help!!
Admission date, 24 Aug 1902 (year looks like "12" on the image, it is definitely an "02"), Register number 52, James McCabe, age 44. (second from bottom on attached image)
I am hoping there is some mention of who the body was released to, or a cemetery destination.
-
Took a few trials but think I've nearly got it.
-
False alarm- all I got was back to the index and I think that's the problem- only the index is online but you need to look up the record in PRONI?
"With the date of admission, register number, name and age of an individual, you should be able to locate the corresponding original records held by PRONI."
-
Thanks for trying, Aghadowey; I was going in circles!
-
... The other bit of information we got was Alice had 2 sisters one was married to a Duffy and lived in Rockville Street where she died and another called Maggie who lived in Iveagh Street and wasn’t married.
The first sister you mention was identified at reply #8. See also reply #13.
-
I have searched for records of the death of Alice Ellen Mc Cabe/Mc Grath of 13 Rockville Street Belfast
who died some where in the mid 60s or early 70s . I have trawled the PRONI website but can find nothing !!! she was born 13th Feb 1892. I would be most grateful for help with this one as it would unlock information on her husband John James Mc Cabe as his birth certificate has him as Mc Kinley and he has used the name c Cabe in the 1911 census ????
-
Could Alice have married again?
She and Jack were both alive in 1961-
Belfast Telegraph, 16 Dec.1961: ... Catherine, dearly-beloved wife of Edmund Duffy, 14 Rockville Street. R.I.P. Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Sister, Brother-in-law and Family. Alice and Jack McCabe, 113 Rockville St.
Online death index for PRONI only goes up to 1975- could she have died after that?
Added- see that information has been posted on a new thread while I was searching-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=892233.0;topicseen
-
Many thanks for your reply, I didnt think anyone would see the continuation of this original thread so I opened a new request, sorry for causing you any trouble. Following on from the last year when you and other researchers were helping to solve the Mc Cabe story problem whose name went from Mc Kinstry Mc Kee Mc Cabe etc and John was the only one to keep the Mc Cabe title when he married Alice Mc Grath who we have at last got a death date for and will visit Milltown Office to find the grave which we have never seen before. It would be great if you could find out when Alices husband John died ?? my wife told me Alice referred to him as Jack. Many thanks. G