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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Tees on Tuesday 02 April 24 23:59 BST (UK)
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Hello All!
I found two marriage records on my Lyons. Both are twins and they got married to Dunne siblings!
Luke Lyons married to a Julia Dunne in 1921.
Bridget Lyons married to a Daniel Dunne in 1920.
Both had a son named Samuel Dunne. They also have other children. I managed to find two children for each couple.
My chief interest is: their father Edward Lyons were down as a stonecutter/stone mason on their marriage records.
I am trying to find the death record on their father. I found a death record on Edward Lyons who is the stone cutter in 1917. BUT his widow is Catherine.
I couldn't find a marriage record showing that his father is Luke but the closest record is in 1911.
I would appreciate any help or pointers so I can track down his death entry.
Thank you for your assistance in advance.
Kind regards,
Tees
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So what name should his widow be??
You couldn’t find a marriage record showing Edwards father was Luke? How do you know his father was Luke?
You haven’t given any details of the twins birthyears & birthplace or Edwards details so please post 1901/1911 census details
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No answers yet, just questions: What was the name of the mother of Luke (m1921) and Bridget (m1920)? What information do you have to prove this? (eg birth records)
There seem to be three possibilities here.
(1) Luke and Bridget's mother died or disappeared and the father, Edward, subsequently married Catherine.
(2) Catherine was the mother of Luke and Bridget.
(3) There was more than one Edward LYONS.
(ADDED - I'm with CaroleW on this - we need more detail).
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Marriages
Luke
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09234/5341556.pdf
Bridget
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09280/5359994.pdf
Their birth 1890 mother Elizabeth Byrne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02443/1908980.pdf
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Hello All,
Sinann beats me to it. Yes, their mother is Elizabeth Burns. She died in 1893.
What I am trying to say that: their father's death entry in 1917 shows that his widow is Catherine and the occupation is stone cutter.
I found a marriage entry showing Catherine Goode married Edward Lyons in 1911 but the occupation is not stone cutter or stone mason as stated on Luke's or Bridget's marriage entries. The father is not Luke as Edward's father is Luke and his mother is Catherine and he was from Carlow as stated in his first marriage to Mary Curtis in 1868. His second marriage was to Elizabeth Burns.
I am trying to confirm whether this is my Edward or not.
The 1901 Census showed that Luke and his sister were in Celbridge, Kildare. After that, I could not find them in 1911 Census. I cannot confirm if their father was in Celbridge or not as there was a Edward working as railway signalman and living with a wife Mary??? I am mystified as how they ended up there. Checked their marriage record and Edward is not mine.
Thank you for your understanding/help in advance.
PS There was a son named Edward Patrick Lyons born in 1884 but I am not sure what happened to him.
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The 1901 Census showed that Luke and his sister were in Celbridge, Kildare
You haven’t given any details of the twins birthyears & birthplace or Edwards details so please post 1901/1911 census details
For searching reference
1901 for Luke
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kildare/Celbridge/Main_Street/1436482/
1901 for Bridget/Brigit
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kildare/Celbridge/Main_Street/1436487/
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Marriage of an Edward Lyons, carter, of 16 Oriel St. Upper, to Catherine (Goode) O'Connor-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09938/5613235.pdf
His father listed as Patrick Lyons, sailor.
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Birth- Edward Patrick Lyons, parents Edward (stonecutter) & Eliza Byrne, 22 Windsor Terrace-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02692/1991667.pdf
Could this be him in 1901? nephew of Thomas Burns-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/Redmond_s_Hill/1343763/
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Another child of Edward Lyons & Eliza Byrne- Josephine born 1888 at 13 Charlotte St.-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02507/1929481.pdf
Baptism- address 13 Charlotte St.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=harrington-street_mf_1865-1890_ba_0593
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Baptism of Edward Patrick in 1884-
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=harrington-street_mf_1865-1890_ba_0468
Child bapt. 1880-
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=rathmines_mf_1823-1886_ba_0607
Birth registered as Margaret, address- 44 Upper Clanbrassil St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02863/2049173.pdf
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There is a workhouse record for Josephine in 1895
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6J7R-GNNT?cid=fs_copy
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It looks like Edward could have left the country after Elizabeth died. Likely for work. Have you looked any where else for him?
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There is a workhouse record for Josephine in 1895
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6J7R-GNNT?cid=fs_copy
Good find! Could this be Josephine in 1911?
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Lombard_Street__West/82566/
Possibility in 1901- J.L., age 12, R.C., born Dublin, lame. At South Dublin Workhouse, James St.
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Hello aghadowey,
Thank you for finding this workhouse record. I lost this link some years back. I recalled this. Also, there was a record on Edward as well somewhere. I am working off my memory.
Also, thank you for finding an extra daughter I do not know about!
I know Elizabeth Burns had children with Edward Lyons:
3 Luke (Yes, THREE of them and one is twin)
Josephine
new Margaret
Brigdet (twin)
Edward Patrick (there was another Edward-William Edward-- but he was from first marriage--if I remember rightly he died)
A daughter who was born in 1869 to first marriage--sister to William Edward
Catherine Mary in 1869 (not sure why I have two daughters born in 1869?)
Elizabeth in 1878
Elizabeth had a daughter from her first marriage and I was descended from her.
I am keen on finding Edward's death entry.
Oddly, I was unable to locate Elizabeth Lyons' burial at Glasnevin Cemetery. Wondering where could she be buried in? This would be most helpful if we know where she was buried and we could find her with her children in the same plot or in her family plot? I am curious because she was raised as COI.
I suspected the Irish Genealogy still have not updated as I still haven't seen my great uncle's birth entry on it. I e-mailed them about it being missing.
Sinann, it is possible that he went abroad. But where? Did he emigrate with my great gran? This needs a good lead. Unfortunately, I do not know where. BUT I remember someone posted a link here suggesting a Lyon family were much into sailing and have some connections with Scotland or was it England. But it does not make sense as Edward is the stonecutter? Yet, I saw a photo with few ladies and one looks like my great gran. There was a note on it saying one is Lyons and one is a unknown relative?
I lost that link--it would be great if I could compare the notes with the person who hosts the website.
I am grateful to you for your suggestion. Worthy of considersation.
Kind regards,
Tees
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It was Sinann that found the workhouse record :)
Just found something quite interesting.
Luke Lyons (29 Apr.1877 at 38 Bride St.-10 May 1879 at 44 Upper Clanbrassil St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03012/2103791.pdf (look at mothers' details)
Bapt.: https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.nicholas_mf_1870-1880_ba_0302 (address- 11 Bride St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06517/4877081.pdf
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My apologies to Sinann! Thank you so much for the link on Josephine Lyons!
I looked up on Edward Lyons and there was a record on Edward Lyons the stone cutter in 1912 showing him as a widower.
I also find some family members.
Yes, you have a right details on Luke's mother from 1877. This was a solid proof on that my great gran knew her family background well as it was put down on her marriage record in 1903. I think she did not know her father's first name, only his last name. She used it along with her stepfather's name which confused me to no end.
Years ago, I came across this Luke on Family Search. My guts screamed at me to get this record but I was not sure if it is ours or not. Foolish of me to ignore my guts. It took years to be told to follow her mother and found her with this child showing right information.
That's how it went.
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Got interrupted by having to do some baking- very inconsiderate of my family wanting to eat home-baked things ;D
Anyway, have found a bit more which I have to finish typing then can post later.
I did find another Bridget-
Bridget Lyons (16 Mar.1886 at 20 Peter St.-24 Mar.1887 at 14 Peter St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02615/1965619.pdf (mother- formerly Brady)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06161/4760756.pdf
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Hi aghadowey,
Thank you for finding the records. Oddly, she was down as a male?
I think this is not my Edward Lyons and Elizabeth Lyons. Eliza's maiden name is either Burns or Byrne. She was baptised under the last name of Barns but the record shows a letter u which was sloppy and it could passed as the letter a if one does not read it carefully.
Now we have a new issue....there is another Edward Lyons with same occupation. Umm...
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I think the Bridget born 1886 died 1887 is the right family.
This is what I have so far-
Edward Lyons m.(1868) Mary Curtis & had 3? children-
1. Catherine Mary Lyons (1869)- only one daughter registered in 1869. I think the confusion over a 2nd unnamed daughter comes from 2 entries in difficult to read baptismal register
2. William Edward Lyons (1871-1873?)
3. Edward Lyons (1874)- this one interesting because birth gives mother as Mary formerly Callaghan but baptism shows mother as Mary Curtis
Edward Lyons m.(1876) Elizabeth Burns/Byrne (d.1893)
4. Luke Lyons (1877-1879)
5. Elizabeth Lyons (1878)
6. Luke Lyons (1879-d.y.?)
7. Margaret Lyons (1880)
8. Edward Patrick Lyons (1884)
9. Bridget Lyons (1886-1887)
10. Josephine Lyons (1888-aft.1920)
11. Luke Lyons (1890)
12. Bridget Lyons (1890)
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The 1868 marriage of Edward and Mary gives his residence as Carlow but I think that's possibly where he was living/working at the time and may have been from Dublin.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1881-1904_ma_0157
Carlow is in the column entitled "Eorum Residentia" (their residences or residency)
https://search.findmypast.com/search-world-records/ireland-roman-catholic-parish-marriages
Being a stonemason/stonecutter it's possible Edward was working outside Dublin.
I did some searching in Dublin Workhouse registers on Family Search and can't find any of the children besides Josephine. From the 1895 entry it looks as though she stayed there until at least 1903. That why I think this is her-
Possibility in 1901- J.L., age 12, R.C., born Dublin, lame. At South Dublin Workhouse, James St.
Is really annoying we haven't found a death for Edward Lyons (after 1893 because he was alive when wife Elizabeth died). The surviving children weren't that old so I wonder if they were looked after by relatives for a bit and only Josephine went to the Workhouse because she was disabled.
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Hi aghadowey,
Thank you for finding many records. I have them from my research but your findings confirmed that I was/am on the right track. Yes, you are correct Edward stated he was from Carlow--good point that it being a workplace and that he could have been from Dublin due to his being stonecutter/stone mason.
Sinann found that link on Josephine but with your help, I finally understand why she was in the Registers. Lame, poor her. I do not know there was another entry on her. Yet, she was a witness to her sister Bridget's marriage.
Indeed, I am annoyed that I couldn't find him in any death entry that fits him with an exception for 1917 entry but it shows him being married and his widow was Catherine.
Can the boarder be a relative and a boarder at the same time? I found my Bridget and Luke in Celbridge over in Kildare. Make me wondering where are other siblings?
I will work on your list of siblings. That makes a lot easier for me to track them. New sibling Margaret was not known to me until now.
Another thing is that I noticed that in workhouse or hospital, details might be vague at the best unless someone insisted that particulars to be recorded OR a person doing entries are good with details. Too often, they would not be specific with the occupations or wife's name, etc... if one is a stone cutter or stone mason, he will be recorded as a labourer which does not help with narrowing down which Edward is mine.
Very rarely, a relative would be buried with other relatives which would be a big help! I found my relatives that way. :)
Edward Patrick was in 1901 census or was it in 1911 with his uncle Thomas and aunt Burns. This couple fell off the cliff after 1911. I have no idea where they went. His aunt's name is very unique--Dorinda which should make it easy to spot her and her husband, right? Nope!
If we have 1921 census, that would be tremendous help. I think this census was destroyed in the fire? We already are passing 100 year mark now.
Will follow up later on as I need to get ready for my meeting in the afternoon. My thinking here is that we could try looking up someone's family trees to see if they have these people in them?
Seeing that I have twin Bridget and Luke and their spouses plus two children each, maybe there is a tree on them.
One big mystery here is where was my Eliza Lyons buried? She was not at Glasvensin? I know she is Roman Catholic but was raised in COI family. I have no idea where they took her to be buried in. That will helps us to clue in where and maybe we can find Edward Lyons? Ummm....
Food for thoughts! :)
Will be back with any findings at my end later on.
Thank you again for your help!
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If we have 1921 census, that would be tremendous help. I think this census was destroyed in the fire? We already are passing 100 year mark now.
No census was taken in 1921, due to political unrest as a result of the War of Independence and Civil War, but the work of taking census resumed in 1926.
All census returns from 1926 onwards are closed to the public for 100 years in accordance with section 35 of the Statistics Act, 1993.
See
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/genealogy/1901-1911-population/#:~:text=No%20census%20was%20taken%20in,of%20the%20Statistics%20Act%2C%201993.
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In no particular order-
Edward Patrick Lyons was with aunt & uncle in 1901 but not with them in 1911-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/Redmond_s_Hill/1343763/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_City/Fownes_St__Upper/59917/ (his occupation is Paper Hanger not Paper Kanger as on N.A. site & Family Search)
Possibly Thomas Burns' wife Dorenda? died 1940, buried Mount Jerome-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HPX7-6RT2
Irish Genealogy transcribed as Doranda but it is her- widow (not married) and informant was Josephine Lyons! Dorenda died 12 York St. and Josephine's address 2 York St. but perhaps one is incorrect and she also lived with her aunt and uncle.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1940/04726/4263647.pdf
Yes, in census returns relatives are not always listed as such. My grandfather's aunt listed her nephew as visitor and I came across a stepchild listed as boarder or lodger once.
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Thank you, Kiltaglassan, for refreshing my memory about 1921 Irish Census. Indeed, Civil War “ruined” it for us, the genealogists.
Aghadowey,
Brilliant findings!
Will have to sign into Family Search. To see the burial information.
I also found Thomas’s death entry. To my surprise, it was his brother who reported his death and he was down as a single, not married!?!? Now I know another brother my great great gran has.
Think they might have “separated”?
I do have them in Irish Censuses. Thanks for confirming my findings!
This weekend I will look up on the family trees to see if anyone has them in their trees.
Thank you for explaining about the relationships on the censuses. Now I know.
Will post later on with any findings I can find.
Kind regards,
Tees
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Think today's research will eliminate Edward Lyons (d.1917) who married Catherine (Goode) O'Connor.
Edward Lyons (c1860-14 Feb.1917 at 40 Jervis St.) m.(23 June 1891) Catherine Coyle (d.1905); m.(30 Jan.1911) Catherine (Goode) O’Connor (c1874)
1892- 10 Upper Major St., labourer; 1893- 188 Church Rd.; 1897- 9 Irvine Ter., labourer; 1900/1904- 7 Emily Pl., labourer; 1911- 16 Oriel St. Upper, carter; 1911- Seville Pl.; 1917- 40 Jervis St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1891/10668/5887452.pdf
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Emily_Place/1274910/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05580/4567316.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09938/5613235.pdf
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/North_Dock/Seville_Place/18992/ (married 9 years, 4 ch./3 living)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05224/4445745.pdf
1. Catherine Lyons (2 Jan.1892 at 10 Upper Mayor St.-aft.1901)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02359/1881292.pdf (mother- Catherine Coyle)
2. Christopher Lyons (10 Dec.1893 at 188 Church Rd.) m.(May 1917) Christina Cummins- family
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02273/1853832.pdf (mother- Catherine Coyle)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09753/5539520.pdf
1918- 7 Moreland Pl. Talbot St., soldier; 1920- 7 Moreland Pl., carter; 1922/1923- 7 Moreland Pl., (1922- sailor, 1923-labourer)
3. John Lyons (19 Nov.1895 at 22 Jane Pl.-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02184/1826552.pdf (mother- Catherine Coyle)
? https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1917/09761/5542872.pdf
4. Christina Lyons (1 Dec.1897 at 9 Irvine Ter.) m.(21 Aug.1921)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02096/1798748.pdf (mother- Catherine Coyle)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09242/5345025.pdf (father- Edward Lyons, stonecutter)
5. Mary Margaret Lyons (11 Apr.1900 at 7 Emily Pl.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01997/1768170.pdf
6. Patrick Joseph Lyons (27 June 1902 at 7 Emily Pl.-aft.1911) Thomas Burke
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1902/01901/1737969.pdf (mother- Catherine Coyle)
? https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1936/08914/5224077.pdf
? https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1943/08774/5171366.pdf
7. Edward Joseph Lyons (6 May 1904 at 7 Emily Pl.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01828/1714500.pdf (mother- Catherine Coyle)
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Only twice in all those records can I see Edward Lyons as a stonecutter- his death registration and daughter Christina's marriage- all other records show him as a labourer or carter.
This Edward lived in North Dublin registration district and yours in South Dublin. This one is fairly consistent with his age (too young to be yours) and married Catherine Coyle before your Edward's wife Elizabeth died in 1893.
Now, the remaining mysteries-
1. Death for your Edward Lyons (after 1893)
2. Burial place(s) for Edward & Elizabeth (is she buried in Mount Jerome like Dorenda Burns? is Edward also buried there? where are the children who died you buried?
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Hello Aghadowey,
Many, many thanks for discounting the death entry I found on Edward Lyons. Happy we can safely ignore it.
Yes! You read my mind! Where were their deceased children buried?
If twin Lyons stated their father without mentioning that he is deceased, does that mean he is alive?
I found Josephine Lyons died in 1953 in the same cemetery as Dorinda Burns.
I will look at her husband to see if he is buried there or not.
Wondering if this cemetery has burial indexes like Glavensin does?
I will Google that and let you know.
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Apparently, one can make enquires via their e-mail address. I shall enquire then.
It is shame the death entries does not include info on the cemetery. In the USA, they include this information. Tremendous help because it actually help me in finding my grandad’s grandparents who were in the same plot as his eldest sister who died as a toddler before he was born.
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Interestingly, the death entry I found on Josephine Lyons showing that she is widow and the informant was her son named Dermont.
But on Family Search, she was down as a single in the same cemetery. The rest of the info is same on the entry.
This is in 1953.
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This 1953 death is for a widow called Josephine Marie Lyons age 69 so born c1884 so I don't think this is your Josephine.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1953/04473/4173253.pdf
This is the 1953 death you found-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1953/04473/4173282.pdf
Your Josephine was still known as Lyons in 1940 (when aunt Dorenda Burns died) so she didn't marry until later, if at all.
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Yes, the last entry in your previous post is the one I found.
Did she get married? I wonder….
I would have to sign up to Ancestry.
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Hello Aghadowey
Here are the updates:
The cemetery confirmed that Josephine Lyons is a Miss at the time of her burial.
Thomas Burns is named as Thomas James Burns who died in 1933.
BUT I researched again because he was down as a single and was a Catholic. He lived at the same address since 1911, not the one I know with Dorenda.
I narrowed down to three possibilities.
I found two Thomas Byrne in 1928:
First Thomas was married and a foreman--would the painters have a foreman. This guy died aged 64 at the same address that his wife used to live in 1889--19 Charlesmouth Street as noted on their marriage entry. I feel this is perfect one as the age is spot on as he was born in 1865 and there might be some familial connection with the residence?
Second Thomas was 63 and Painter but was down as a Bachelor. I think I should try Workhouse Register Book?
Last one is with full name of Thomas James and was aged 72 and a merchant. BUT the informant is Josephine Byrne, daughter at the same address. Wondering if this is Josephine Lyons going by her uncle's last name?
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Kind regards,
Tees
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Glad that Josephine is sorted so to speak.
First Thomas was married and a foreman--would the painters have a foreman. This guy died aged 64 at the same address that his wife used to live in 1889--19 Charlesmouth Street as noted on their marriage entry. I feel this is perfect one as the age is spot on as he was born in 1865 and there might be some familial connection with the residence?
Entirely possible he was foreman for a team of painters or foreman overseeing a group of men (painters, plasterers, etc.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1928/04957/4349078.pdf
Last one is with full name of Thomas James and was aged 72 and a merchant. BUT the informant is Josephine Byrne, daughter at the same address. Wondering if this is Josephine Lyons going by her uncle's last name?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1932/04876/4319295.pdf
Think the census record rules this third one out-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Clanbrassil_Street__Lower__East_Side/77187/
Added- address is 19 Charlemount Street