RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: auntya on Monday 01 April 24 18:35 BST (UK)
-
Hoping you kind folks can help me.
Been searching for George White for a while now, with limited success.
I know he was in the Scottish Rifles as per his marriage certificate of 1905 which shows him as a Private at Maryhill Barracks, Glasgow.
By 1911 he is living at Hamilton Barracks, his occupation, Army Bugler but then moves back to Maryhill.
I’ve looked for him in WW1 Service Records so far without success but I’ve recently come across an entry for a George White, Service Number 7158, Scottish Rifles in WW1 Pension Ledgers & Index Cards and wondered if he could be who I’m looking for.
Does anyone have access to these records who would be willing to take a look?
I don’t know what information it may hold or how I could prove it was the correct person.
He was married to Margaret H Cameron and had 7 children (that I know of). Also, on one of his childrens birth certificates (1917) it states he was a Corporal, 3rd Battalion Scottish Rifles but also at Tramcar Conductor ???
I would be so grateful if anyone could help me.
-
What is his birth year and birth place? Quite a few men with his name in the Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) at the time.
-
Just small snippets for now - there is a date 28-3-19 - not sure what that relates to.
Sgt George White - 7158 - Scottish Rifles - The address seems to be 17 Shawpark Street. Maryhill. Glasgow.
PPS 5781 amalgamated 7158 - SAL 8794 crossed thru - underneath 1 MW / 3860
Maybe Ashtone could elaborate further........
marriage - George White - Margaret Harris Cameron - 1905 - 622 / 1 / 312 Maryhill
Sandra
Might be a son - ???
UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947
Memorial Register Portsmouth
WHITE, William, Able Seaman, P/JX 380256, Penelope, 18 February 1944, ship loss, MPK
-
Britain, First World War Campaign Medals
George White
Acting Sergeant
Previous unit: 1/Sco. Rifles 7158 Pte
-
UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923
Sgt George White - 1883
Residence Place Maryhill Glasgow
Military Service Region Scotland, Scotland
Military Country Scotland
Discharge Date 28 Jul 1919
Service Number 7158 - Corps, Regiment or Unit Scottish Rifles - (Cameronians)
Service Branch Military (Army)
Reference Number 1/Mw3860
Sandra
-
Oh my goodness!
I can’t believe how quickly you’ve all replied. Thank you so much.
Sandra…..George & family were definitely at 17 Shawpark St in the 1921 census
Do you know what PPS, SAL and MW mean. Did he have different service numbers and if so, why?
Ashtone…. George was born 1882/3 Baptised 3/1/1883 at Lambeth, London. Was baptised Stephen George but was known as George. Parents were Stephen and Eliza Ann.
Why he ended up in Scotland is a mystery.
So excited. It looks like it could be the right George!
-
Probably need someone who understands military.
The reference Number on the UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923 was 1/Mw3860
UK, World War I Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920
George White
Military Year 1914-1920
Rank Acting Sergeant - Company WO 329
Regiment or Corps Scottish Rifles (Cameronians)
Regiment Number 7158
Medal Awarded British War Medal and Victory Medal
- SAL 8794 crossed thru - underneath 1 MW / 3860 is a reference no
-
Sandra - can you upload the image/snippet for the following, which you mention above. Thanks!
PPS 5781 amalgamated 7158 - SAL 8794 crossed thru - underneath 1 MW / 3860
-
Sorry, havent got a fold 3 subscription but managed to read some information :-\
-
UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923
https://www.acronymfinder.com/Military-and-Government/SAL.html
-
1 MW/3860 corresponds to the Ledger reference for George White.
Here is a breakdown of the codes for 1 MW/3860 found on his Pension Index card:
1 = Scotland (the region, depending on the claimant's address)
M = Military claim
W = White (his surname)
3860 = Ledger reference number
The cards - which were produced after the ledgers - were effectively 'finding aids' to locate the ledger which was in turn used to summarise post-award correspondence as well as the results of medical-board examinations.
As regards "SAL 8794" -- it might be his Pension Identity number he required in order to claim his pension at a Post Office.
-
auntya - do you have your George White in the 1891 and 1901 census? If so, can you provide the details.
Probably unrelated, but I can see a Stephen & Eliza Ann White in 1891 in Lambeth, but there isn't a son with them. Both parents are drapers.
If George was already in the army by 1901 he may be listed as "private" somewhere in the UK. Or possibly serving away in the Boer War.
-
The service records of soldiers whose service ended before 1921 are generally held by the National Archives:
The National Archives
Ruskin Avenue
Kew
Richmond
Surrey, TW9 4DU
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Good read here - Cameronians Research Guide.
There are a few more links within this link :-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t38/
e-mail address : - museumresearch@southlanarkshireleisure.co.uk
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01t39/
Mr Google has many more links which you might find useful.
Sandra
-
Find My Past hold a medical admissions entry for him -- details:-
Medical unit -- 34 Casualty Clearing Station (this was based at Vequemont, Somme Deaprtment, France)
Regiment -- 1st Battalion, Scottish Rifles
Squadron or Company -- 'B' Company
Service No -- 7158
Name -- White, G
Age -- 34 years
Completed years in Army -- 15 years 5 months
Time in the field -- 1 year 11 months
Wounds -- Gun Shot Wounds to left arm and left leg
Admitted -- 18/7/1916
Transferred - 18/7/1916
To -- 20 Ambulance Train
There is no detail as to where he was being transferred to, his wounds would have needed treatment in one of the many army hospitals in France.
The 1st Battalion were involved in the Battle of the Somme which started on the 1st July 1916. As he was admitted to the 34 Casualty Clearing Station on the 18th July, he would have been wounded a couple of days prior. A look at the Battalion's war diaries shows that on Sunday, 16th July, the Battalion were involved in heavy fighting at High Wood and records the casualties that day as 'Officers - 1 killed; 1 wounded; Other Ranks 2 killed; 46 wounded' -- George would have been one of the forty six wounded.
-
His Medal Index Card shows that he entered a Theatre of War on the 1st September 1914 -- this would have been France and Flanders. (image courtesy of Ancestry)
-
Today, Sandra said The service records of soldiers whose service ended before 1921 are generally held by the National Archives:
A pension card held on Fold3 shows that he was discharged on the 28th July 1919. His service record has not survived -- over 60% of records were destroyed in WW2 when the storage warehouse on Arnside Street was bombed resulting in a huge loss of records.
-
AllanUK, wonderful to see some information about George, that's exactly what the op wanted.
Shame his service record didn't survive. Do you think the PPS 5781 was a previous regiment number amalgamated to 7158 ?? Poor chap with a few gun shot wounds :-\
Regards
Sandra
-
Today, Sandra said Do you think the PPS 5781 was a previous regiment number amalgamated to 7158 ?? --
I believe that PPS 5781 was another pension reference number. I have never come across an Army service number starting with PPS. It appears that he was born in 1882 and he declared on his admission to the 34 CCS that he had been in the Army for 15 years 5 months -- this would take his enlistment back to circa February 1901. Looking at Paul Nixon's website https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/ service number 6804 was issued on the 20th February 1900 and service number 7294 was issued on the 8th May 1901 -- George's service number of 7158 was issued in the first few months of 1901. As he was still a serving soldier when WW1 broke out, he would still have 7158 as his service number.
-
Thanks again for the explanation.
Sandra
-
Hello Sandra, Ashtone & AllanUK,
First can I say a huge THANKS to you all for doing this for me. I don’t think I would have ever found all the information you have passed on. I have a lot to learn about military records!
AllanUK Wow! His Medical Admissions record. The information of when and where he would have received his wounds and the fact you’ve practically pinpointed the date when George enlisted. I’m amazed! What knowledge! Thank you.
Ashtone I have George in the 1891 census with his parents and two siblings living in Trafalgar Street, St Mary Newington, London. His father Stephen is shown as a Labourer. I’ve still to find any of them in 1901 though after todays discovery about Georges enlistment date, he could be anywhere in the UK!
Thank you for explaining the reference codes.
Sandra I’m going to be doing a lot of reading. Thank you for all the useful links
So very grateful for all the help
A
-
Ashtone I have George in the 1891 census with his parents and two siblings living in Trafalgar Street, St Mary Newington, London. His father Stephen is shown as a Labourer.
Hmm...not seeing them in the 1891 census. ???
ADDED: Nevermind. I see them now. The family are transcribed as "While" (not White).
-
auntya - when searching the other day, came across this death which may be Stephen White ?
Have you investigated this at all ?
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch?DetsView=Summary&src=ext&fileid=10428143
FIND A GRAVE
Stephen White born 1854 and passed away 14 February 1893
Camberwell Old Cemetery
Camberwell, London Borough of Southwark, Greater London.
PLOT Grave 13057
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218133599/stephen-white
Sandra
-
Was this the marriage of the parents :-
Stephen White - Record Type Marriage 25 Dec 1880
Marriage Place Saint Giles, Camberwell: Camberwell Church Street, Southwark.
Father James White
Spouse Eliza Ann Lane
-
Sorry having one of those in and out days........
Also did notice that there was a London, England, School Admissions and Discharges, 1840-1911 for George (16/12/1882) and Charles (23/2/1885) - King and Queen Street School. Southwark. Date of admission was 24.4.1888 - Date of leaving 10/12/1888 - Last school Penton Place. 2 months.
Parent Stephen White of Trafalgar St.
Sandra
-
Who were the witnesses on the 1905 marriage of George and Margaret/Maggie ?
The sister, Emily (fruiterer and greengrocer on the 1911 census) appears to marry Harold Spinney in 1911 and passed away 1970 Wandsworth Greater London. Would you happen to have the marriage certificate to see who the witnesses were at that marriage ?
Sandra
-
auntya - when searching the other day, came across this death which may be Stephen White ?
Have you investigated this at all ?
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch?DetsView=Summary&src=ext&fileid=10428143
FIND A GRAVE
Stephen White born 1854 and passed away 14 February 1893
Camberwell Old Cemetery
Camberwell, London Borough of Southwark, Greater London.
PLOT Grave 13057
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/218133599/stephen-white
Sandra
If this was the scenerio and Stephen had passed away, then here is a remarriage for Eliza White (father James Lane) aged 35 years - widow. Married to William Stone (father Samuel - chimney sweep) aged 43 years - widower. chimney sweep. Address 22 White Hart Street.
Witnesses Thomas Scutt and Eliza Howe,
Marriage by Banns - 8 July 1895 Parish Church St Giles Kennington. Surrey.
-
It is possible that Eliza Lane/White/Stone then passed away before the 1901 census
William on the 1861 census with father Samuel (Chimney Sweep)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGT4-WRC
1901 census St Giles Camberwell London
William Stone 50 Head. Chimney Sweep. Widower.
Andrew Stone 25 Son. General Dealer.
Emily Stone 15 Daughter -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9C5-XXT
William Stone deceased December 1908 - buried
Nunhead Cemetery Nunhead, London Borough of Southwark, Greater London. (Did not find Eliza Lane/White/Stone buried here)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/197351722/william-stone
Sandra
-
William Stone - prior to 1895 marriage
1891 census London City, Lambeth, London (Redg Dist Lambeth)
William Stone 40 Head. Chimney Sweep. Widowed.
Margaret Stone 12 Daughter
Benjamin Stone 10 Son
Emma Stone 10 Daughter. (Born 1885 MMN Barrett)
Andrew Barrett 34 Brother-in-law.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q951-BW2
1881 census 1 Sun Court Denmark Hill Lambeth
William Stone 32 Head
Margaret Stone 31 Wife
Mary Stone 10 Daughter
William Stone 6 Son (MMN Barrett)
Andrew Stone 4 Son (MMN Barrett)
Margaret Stone 2 Daughter (MMN Barrett)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Q-L3QB
marriage 1878 -
-
Margaret Barrett/Stone wife of William Stone died 1889
Margaret Stone - 1852 - 1889 (aged 37 years)
Death Registration Place Lambeth, London.
Death Date Jun 1889 London, United Kingdom
Volume 1d Page 290
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2V3S-LSN
Did check out EmilyStone (daughter of William and Margaret) just in case she was Emily White (daughter of Stephen and Eliza) - "roughly" same birth years - confirmed by her marriage, she was definitely the daughter of William Stone and Margaret Barrett.
The age of Emily age was wrong on the 1891 census which had made me wonder - she was 10 years old on ancestry and 6 years old on family search.
-
This could be the death of Eliza Ann Lane/White Stone
STONE, ELIZA ANN 40
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 297
Sandra
-
Hi Sandra,
The White family are proving difficult to find - for me a least!
I have the marriage of Stephen & Eliza 25/12/1880 and the 1891 census showing them with their 3 children George, Charles & Emily. I think a couple of children died very young, James & William (need to check this). Another daughter was born later in 1891, Violet Rebecca.
I don’t yet have the marriage certificates for Emily to Harold Spinney or Violet to Samuel Buckman but have found them in the 1911 census
The witnesses at George & Margaret’s marriage were from Margaret’s side of the family.
Thank you for the School Admissions & Discharges. Interesting! I will have to take a look at those and see if there’s more.
I know Stephen was dead by 22/12/ 1905 as he is shown as deceased on George’s marriage cert.
I have noticed the death you posted but I’ve not pursued it yet. There was another one in 1901 registered at Camberwell which I wondered about also.
You’re correct Sandra, about a remarriage for Eliza. On George’s death certificate it states….
Eliza White now Clark nee Lane ( it could be Clarke - very bad copy).
I’ve looked at the marriage index and there are a few possibilities I need to check out
Do you think she could have married William Stone previous to Mr Clark/e?
I did wonder if, after Stephen died, that the family ended up in the work/poor house and thats a reason as to why I can’t find them in 1901 census - just a thought!
Thank you again for all your help.