RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: GilchristHolmes on Monday 01 April 24 17:48 BST (UK)
-
I have been trying to find any kind of information for my grandfathers family. I know he moved to US Massachusetts when he was 7 from Scotland. He was born in Clydebank, I have all the information for his parents but I get stuck with his sets of grandparents. He was never one to talk about his family or his past unfortunately and I wasn’t into ancestry at the time so I didn’t even think to ask him anything. Thankfully, ScotlandsPeople has been super helpful with records like birth and marriage records. But I haven’t been able to find anything as far as his grandparents parents/families. I search ancestry using the maiden names of both of his grandmothers that are listed in the records from Scotland’s people and I find absolutely nothing. Here’s what I have:
John Gilchrist Jr (my grandpa-no siblings) 1922-2009
Mother-Margaret Turner
Father- John Gilchrist Sr
Margaret’s Parents:
Father - Robert Turner
Mother- Mary Heany
John Sr.s Parents:
Mother: Sarah Holmes
Father: Peter Gilchrist
This is where I get stuck, I found the marriage record for Sarah Holmes and Peter Gilchrist and all of the information matches so I know it’s them. But I can’t find anything on their parents.
Peters parents:
Father: James Gilchrist
Mother: Elizabeth Feenie
Sarah’s parents:
Father: John Holmes
Mother: Elizabeth Boylan
Any idea where I start?
-
Start by forgetting about Ancestry. It won't tell you everything you want to know. It might come in handy for looking up census transcriptions but it doesn't have all the birth, marriage and death information.
You need to use Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
A Scottish marriage certificate from 1855 onwards tells you the full names of the parents of the couple, including their mother's maiden surname.
John Gilchrist and Margaret Turner were married in Old Kilpatrick in 1918
Robert Turner and Mary Henny were married in Gorbals in 1875
Peter Gilchrist and Sarah Holmes were married in Dennistoun in 1887
The next generation back must have married before the start of civil registration in 1855.
So the next port of call is the census. Robert and Mary should be in the 1881 census, and you can view the transcription made by the Latter-Day Saints free of charge at Scotland's People.
Peter Gilchrist, 26, born England is in the 1891 census at 46 James Street, Glasgow, with wife Sarah, 25, born Glasgow, and sons James and Peter, also born in Glasgow.
From FreeBMD https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl James Gilchrist and Elizabeth Finney were married in Liverpool in 1862. Their son Peter was born in 1863 in Birkenhead. They must then have moved to Scotland because they had James in 1865 then Rose in 1869 and another Rose in 1870, all in Glasgow. All three of these children died in infancy.
In 1871 James Gilchrist, 29, born Glasgow, is in Glasgow with wife Elizabeth, 29, born in Ireland, and Peter, 8, born England. There are also two daughters, Mary and Lizzie, both aged 11, born Glasgow. So it may be that James had been married before. Or they could be illegitimate children of either Peter or Elizabeth.
-
This is great information!! Thank you so much!
-
Welcome to Rootschat. ;)
From FreeBMD https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl James Gilchrist and Elizabeth Finney were married in Liverpool in 1862.
MARRIAGE 21 Sept 1862 St Nicholas Liverpool
James Gilchrist (age - minor) bachelor, labourer. Father - Peter Gilchrist – spinner
Elizabeth Finney (age-full) spinster, Father – Peter Finney Labourer
This is a possible census for James with father Peter, a spinner.
1851
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a150247f4040b9d6e0c4c15/peter-gilchrist-1851-lanarkshire-barony-1806-?locale=en
1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14eaa0f4040b9d6ef1bf74/peter-gilchrist-1841-lanarkshire-barony-1807-?locale=en
-
Sarah’s parents:
Father: John Holmes
Mother: Elizabeth Boylan
I suspect that Sarah was illegitimate.
I would have a look at this birth registration.
BOYLAND, SARAH HOLMES
1866
644 / 2 / 2092
HIGH CHURCH, Glasgow
Mother - Elizabeth Boyland
From Sarah's marriage record what do you have for ??
Addresses,
names of witnesses,
occupations of bride and
occupations of her parents.....
Those details might help to find Sarah in the census. I can see a possible for her with the surname Boyland.
-
I'm not sure if you need further information, but please use the reply button to let us know if this has been of use.
It looks like you have lots of Irish ancestors.
Robert Turner was born in Ireland, and you will find him in the Scottish census with his mother Agnes.
Mary Henny (Heany / Henney/ Hainey) was born in Glasgow. Check for her parents' names on the marriage certificate. I think they might have been James Henney and Mary Clark - both from Ireland.
I can post further details if required.
-
Thank you so much! All of the information I have been getting is amazing! I’ve been able to further my research!!
-
This is the information I have from Sarah’s marriage record.They were married at 15 Westercraigs? In Dennistoun
Peter’s Address was 12 East Hill st in Glasgow. His witness was William Murray MacKay (minister)
Sarah’s address was 16 East Hill St in Glasgow. Her witnesses were Samuel Jollier and Margaret Taylor.
-
what occupations for Sarah and her parents?
-
Sarah’s occupation is a Tobacco Spinner.
Her father John’s occupation is Cotton Mill Laborer. And her mother Elizabeth’s occupation is not listed.
-
This looks promising for your Sarah (age 15) in 1881 census with mother Elizabeth Holms (widow)
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/image-viewer/census_lds/census_lds-d9affdff-7a71-4b5f-89ad-206db5171456?search_token=46569021660dcddad6fec
Please - On the marriage certificate does it say if either parent is deceased?
-
Oh gosh – this is a complicated / interesting family. Hope you understand and can follow my notes below.
From the 1881 census posted above --------
Elizabeth (Boyland) Holms was born abt 1831 in Ireland - Lough Frainsbell (think the place name has been mis-transcribed. Perhaps ask on the Ireland board of RootsChat)
Your Sarah has an older ½ sister named Mary Ann McGinlay
Birth for Mary Ann Thomson or Boylan - 29 March 1858 Dundee
Mother Betsy Boylan; Father Edward Thomson. ( I suspect she was illegitimate too)
Mary Ann Thomson married Hugh McGinlay in 1877 Blythswood
They had a Daughter Alice born 1881 (mother Mary Ann nee Thomson)
(I didn't spend time on husband Hugh - I think he saw time in prison)
Mary Ann’s death is in 1912 Calton - mother Boyle
1861 census Dundee Angus - Quarry Pend ?
Betsy Boyle 28
Mary Ann Thomson 3 daughter
Plus various lodgers (mill workers)
1871 census Glasgow 49 Princes St 12 Backland - Night Lodging House
(spelling per Ancestry transcription)
Julia Smernes 60 born Ireland housekeeper
--- numerous lodgers …… including..
Elizabeth Holma 36 born Ireland
Maryann Holma 13 born Dundee
Elizabeth Holmer 8 born Dundee
Sarah Holmer 4 born Glasgow
That census shows another child (sister for Sarah and Mary Ann)
Her birth – Elizabeth Holmes Boylen - 28 November 1862 Dundee
Parent – Betsy Boylen
I have not found a death for Elizabeth Boyle / Bolylan/ Boyland / Holmes. With that choice of surnames there are numerous options.
It is possible if you acquire the 3 girls’ birth certificates, and Mary Ann’s marriage certificate, you might get a few more details.
-
1871 census Glasgow 49 Princes St 12 Backland - Night Lodging House
(spelling per Ancestry transcription)
Julia Smernes 60 born Ireland housekeeper
--- numerous lodgers …… including..
Elizabeth Holma 36 born Ireland
Maryann Holma 13 born Dundee
Elizabeth Holmer 8 born Dundee
Sarah Holmer 4 born Glasgow
Scotland's People indexes them all as Holms and the landlady as Julia Sweeney.
I took a look at the original and this is a typical rubbish Ancestry transcription. All these surnames are quite clearly legible. Including that of Elizabeth's husband John - is he missing altogether from the Ancestry version?
The FindMyPast transcription is correct.
-
Great Forfarian! Thanks.
I knew the Ancestry transcription was rubbish. Sometimes I think they just don’t give a damn about their transcripts. >:(
Anyway all the details are clear on the original. The other 2 girls, Elizabeth and Sarah, must be on the next page of the census return. Yes John is there in Ancestry, but for some reason I missed typing him on my list when I posted. I think I was excited to see another daughter appear, and was thinking about her.
Can you see a marriage for John and Elizabeth? I had no luck.
-
I knew the Ancestry subscription was rubbish. Sometimes I think they just don’t give a damn about their transcripts. >:(
Only sometimes?
FindMyPast is slightly better, but is still full of errors, mostly geographical, but some of them highly misleading.
There's a family who look to me like Gilhooley in Julia Sweeney's household. SP indexes them as Gilhorley and FindMyPast has Gilhasley.
Can you see a marriage for John and Elizabeth? I had no luck.
No. Sarah's birth certificate should tell us, but on the other hand they might just have invented a wedding. I also checked the English, Welsh and Irish marriage indexes, but they're not there either. But then they wouldn't be if they were Catholic and married before 1864 in Ireland - do we know what religion they were?
-
There's a family who look to me like Gilhooley in Julia Sweeney's household. SP indexes them as Gilhorley and FindMyPast has Gilhasley.
Ancestry has them as Scharley. ;D
-
There are Chelsea Pension records for a John James Holmes born abt 1816 Cork.
Scots Fusilier Reg. Of Foot Guards 1865
Enlisted 1835
Discharged 1856 - the right timing to meet Elizabeth Boyland and father Elizabeth in 1862.
His records are behind the Fold3 pay wall, so cannot be sure this is the right man.
Added - No dismiss him. I found him married in London.
-
Ancestry has them as Scharley. ;D
If I were not so accustomed to this sort of garbage from Ancestry, words would have failed me :D