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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: accleary on Tuesday 12 March 24 14:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi there, I wonder if you can help fill some gaps around two of my ancestors from County Wexford:
Peter Cleary, born 1821, Kilmore, County Wexford
Owen Roche, born c.1842, Wexford (City, I believe)
Both of them emigrated, as many did, to England later in the 19th Century (Peter Cleary in the 1840s, I believe), and Owen Roche after March 1869 (as that's when my great grandmother, Mary Bridget Roche, was born in Macroom, Co. Cork), where there are quite clear records, but what I'm interested in is information on their lives in Ireland, and particularly about their parents/grandparents. Any help or guidance would be very much appreciated!
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Hi there, I wonder if you can help fill some gaps around two of my ancestors from County Wexford:
Peter Cleary, born 1821, Kilmore, County Wexford
Owen Roche, born c.1842, Wexford (City, I believe)
Both of them emigrated, as many did, to England later in the 19th Century (Peter Cleary in the 1840s, I believe), and Owen Roche after March 1869 (as that's when my great grandmother, Mary Bridget Roche, was born in Macroom, Co. Cork), where there are quite clear records, but what I'm interested in is information on their lives in Ireland, and particularly about their parents/grandparents. Any help or guidance would be very much appreciated!
You could help us to help you if you could provide some more information:
Peter Cleary
What is the source of the knowledge that he was from Kilmore, Co. Wexford.
When/where/who did he marry?
Occupation?
Owen Roche.
There is no Wexford City, I presume you mean the town? Again, what is the source of the indication that he was from there?
Did he go by any other name other than Owen?
Where/when/who did he marry?
In particular, I fid it perplexing that if Peter was from Wexford, then why would his daughter have been born in Macroom, Co. Cork?
Occupation?
Mary Roche
You say there are clear records for her birth in Macroom in March 1869. Can you reference these? Civil registration? Baptism? I can't see either.
Mother's name?
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Is this the family in Heworth, Durham, 1881?
Owen and Bridget Roche with several children.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-GP7T
The younger children in this family look to have a mother’s surname of Hart.
Here is a birth for Laurence in 1874 - Owen and Bridget Hart
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03162/2159844.pdf
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James Roache - 1867 - same parents
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03494/2284388.pdf
Still looking for Mary Bridget
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Baptism no. 2437 Rathdrum January 1869
Latin
Maria Roche - father Eugenio and mother Brigida Hart - residence Aughrim Lower
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633444#page/165/mode/1up
All this throws doubt on your ‘quite clear records’.
Perhaps I have found the wrong Roche family so maybe leave it there until you confirm/deny.
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Welcome to RootsChat.
There's a marriage in the Clonegal RC parish registers between an Owen Roach and Bridget Hart, it took place on 30 April 1861, witnessed by James Halpin and Eliza Nolan:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634445#page/133/mode/1up
Their residence looks like 'Barragh' which I'm guessing might be this townland just outside County Wexford in County Carlow:
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/forth/barragh/cranemore/barragh/
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There's a marriage in the Clonegal RC parish registers between an Owen Roach and Bridget Hart ...
What looks like this couple's first child Michael Roache was baptised in the same parish on 30 March 1862, the sponsors were John Brophy and Johanna Nolan:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634447#page/108/mode/1up
This time, their residence was given as 'Lacabeg', which I think might be the nearby townland of Lackabeg:
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/saint-mullins-upper/barragh/clonegall/lackabeg/
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Firstly, thanks for your replies so far - you guys are amazing. Ok, to address the questions one by one:
Mary Bridget Roche being born in Macroom - 1939 England and Wales register lists her birthplace as County Cork, Ireland. I'm sure I saw an explicit reference to Macroom somewhere, perhaps in the US records (NB: Mary Bridget Roche and Joseph Cleary, my paternal great-grandfather and Peter Cleary's son, spent time in Pennsylvania - Lackawanna County, before returning to North East England in the early 1900s), but my ancestry subscription doesn't stretch that far at the moment.
Owen Roche - not sure if he was known as anything else. Regarding the name of his wife, there's a bit of uncertainty on my part whether it's a Bridget Hart or a Bridget Daly. As there's a baptism of a Mary Bridget Roche in Fermoy, Cork, in March 1869 with the parents being Owen Roche and Bridget Daly, but the evidence based on Mary's brothers suggest that Hart is the correct mother's maiden name. Regarding Wexford (Town), the 1901 England census lists his birth place as 'Westford, Ireland', which I took to be a spelling mistake, as I haven't found a place called Westford.
Peter Cleary, born 1821 - married Isabella Linsley in North-East England (Durham I believe). Evidence for him being from Kilmore is the 1881 E&W Census listing him (Peter Clarry ::) ) as being born in Kilmoor, Ireland. And I think I've seen Rilmore somewhere too! I've seen others on Ancestry listing a James Cleary, born 1790 in County Clare as his father, but I haven't found documentary evidence of that.
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Thanks gaffy. I had wondered if Michael was from an earlier marriage but didn’t have the time to search.
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Here is Joseph b Aughrim, 1871
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03287/2204712.pdf
I can’t see a civil birth registration for Mary Roche in Rathdrum.
If you look at the baptism record, there is a civil record for William Farrell, (baptism 2438) and on another page, in the civil registers, a civil record for Peter Heatherton (baptism 2436), the entries above and below Mary's baptism.
It seems as though Mary’s civil record was omitted.
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Well, I hope you are going to come back and let us know your thoughts on this, accleary.
This looks to be Peter Cleary.
1871- Peter ‘Clarey’ married to Isabella, living in Durham and birthplace ‘Kilmoor ’.
**you have to register with Family Search but it is free.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB87-121
His marriage record would give his father’s name and occupation. That detail might help.
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Well, I hope you are going to come back and let us know your thoughts on this, accleary.
This looks to be Peter Cleary.
1871- Peter ‘Clarey’ married to Isabella, living in Durham and birthplace ‘Kimoor’.
**you have to register with Family Search but it is free.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB87-121
His marriage record would give his father’s name and occupation. That detail might help.
Hi there, sorry my posts are taking a long time to be moderated - I replied on the previous page yesterday (Friday) but it's still awaiting moderation...and I imagine that by the time this one is moderated the previous one will have been!
It is tricky with the variations on spelling - Cleary, Clarry, Clary, Clarey; Roche, Roach, Roache etc.
I had made the assumption around it being Kilmore in Wexford as it's a fairly established place, and also I remember many years ago my Aunt mentioning family history oriented around a bay in the South East tip of Ireland...but my understanding also is that the name Cleary is pretty common in Co.Clare, and there is a Kilmore there too.
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Well, I hope you are going to come back and let us know your thoughts on this, accleary.
As a new user, ACCLeary's posts will only appear once/if approved by moderator.
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Thanks for coming back accleary.
I didn’t realise that posts need approval. I used to be a moderator and it may have changed or I must have forgotten that. ::)
I hope we are on the right track.
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Peter Cleary, born 1821 - married Isabella Linsley in North-East England (Durham I believe). Evidence for him being from Kilmore is the 1881 E&W Census listing him (Peter Clarry ::) ) as being born in Kilmoor, Ireland. And I think I've seen Rilmore somewhere too! I've seen others on Ancestry listing a James Cleary, born 1790 in County Clare as his father, but I haven't found documentary evidence of that.
There is a Kilmore in Co. Cavan. A parish and also the name of the entire diocese.
That your Peter Cleary ended up in Durham, might suggest mining - did he have such an association? There were mines in the vicinity of Co. Cavan, which might make a Cavan origin more likely if so. Downside is he would have been born before start of parish register.
There is also a Kilmore Catholic/civil parish in Co. Mayo, on the ocean.
Kilmore, Co. Wexford - A parish with fishing village and an agricultural area. Unlikely candidate for move to Durham? No sign of his baptism in parish registers.
Kilmore, Co. Clare - just a townland.
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Mary Bridget Roche being born in Macroom - 1939 England and Wales register lists her birthplace as County Cork, Ireland. I'm sure I saw an explicit reference to Macroom somewhere, perhaps in the
.....As there's a baptism of a Mary Bridget Roche in Fermoy, Cork, in March 1869 with the parents being Owen Roche and Bridget Daly.
Fermoy isn't Macroom, though, is it?
Regarding Wexford (Town), the 1901 England census lists his birth place as 'Westford, Ireland', which I took to be a spelling mistake, as I haven't found a place called Westford.
Could also be Westport.
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There is a Widow Cleary listed in the 1834 (or 31?) tythe valuation of the parish of Kilmore, Co. Cavan, townland of Kevitt.
The NAI list this under Kilmore, Co. Mayo, but I believe they are mistaken.
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There is a William Cleary listed in the 1833 tythe valuation of the parish of Kilmore, Co. Wexford.
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OP - Obtaining a copy of Peter's 1845 marriage registration would seem to be in order. That would give you his father's name and occupation.
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There is a Widow Cleary listed in the 1834 (or 31?) tythe valuation of the parish of Kilmore, Co. Cavan, townland of Kevitt.
The NAI list this under Kilmore, Co. Mayo, but I believe they are mistaken.
https://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625684/004625684_00060.pdf
Kevit Upper or Castlecosby townland
https://www.townlands.ie/cavan/clanmahon/kilmore/crossdoney/kevit-upper-or-castlecosby/
Kevit Lower to the south.
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Peter Cleary, born 1821 - married Isabella Linsley in North-East England (Durham I believe). Evidence for him being from Kilmore is the 1881 E&W Census listing him (Peter Clarry ::) ) as being born in Kilmoor, Ireland. And I think I've seen Rilmore somewhere too! I've seen others on Ancestry listing a James Cleary, born 1790 in County Clare as his father, but I haven't found documentary evidence of that.
There is a Kilmore in Co. Cavan. A parish and also the name of the entire diocese.
That your Peter Cleary ended up in Durham, might suggest mining - did he have such an association? There were mines in the vicinity of Co. Cavan, which might make a Cavan origin more likely if so. Downside is he would have been born before start of parish register.
There is also a Kilmore Catholic/civil parish in Co. Mayo, on the ocean.
Kilmore, Co. Wexford - A parish with fishing village and an agricultural area. Unlikely candidate for move to Durham? No sign of his baptism in parish registers.
Kilmore, Co. Clare - just a townland.
There is an association with mining, yes, when looking at the census records from the UK and US (Lackawanna County PA is known for mining, I believe), right up to my grandfather who was a coal minor in County Durham.
I'll try to get hold of the Cleary-Linsley marriage certificate.
As for the Roche side, I'm inclined to think now that the Fermoy or Macroom angle for Mary Bridget Roche is a red herring, as the mother's surname there is Daly. Although County Cork being listed as her birthplace on the 1911 census is still interesting. Looking at the Irish birthplaces of her siblings, though, they did seem to move around a bit - Lower Aughrim, Baltinglass, Rathdrum, Kiltegan. I don't know if that was normal at the time.
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Looking at the Irish birthplaces of her siblings, though, they did seem to move around a bit - Lower Aughrim, Baltinglass, Rathdrum, Kiltegan. I don't know if that was normal at the time.
Unusual for many, normal for some.
If the Owen Roche, the father on the 1871 birth registration of Joseph Roche, is your ancestor, then it may have been quite normal. His occupation is listed as stonemason. A profession where men had to potentially move around as projects started and finished.
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Hi all, long time no reply. How reliable is this site? https://www.newmp.org.uk/person/p-roche-1917/
The reason I ask is that it mentions that Owen Roche married Bridget Daly before marrying Bridget Hart. In relation to Mary Bridget Roche, as mentioned previously I had seen County Cork as her birthplace, and this birth certificate shows a Mary Roche born to Owen Roche and Bridget Daly in Fermoy - https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03392/2244092.pdf - but if the newmp.org.uk site isn't reliable then I don't know whether to believe it.
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but if the newmp.org.uk site isn't reliable then I don't know whether to believe it.
It is only as reliable (or not) as the material submitted to it. You could submit your version just as well.
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Ah okay, there I was thinking that there was some kind of insider knowledge! Ok, so given the association with Wexford and the fact that her brothers were born in the Aughrim/Carlow area to Owen Roche and Bridget Hart, it would imply that this is accurate - https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633444#page/165/mode/1up - born Aughrim Lower, January 1869 to Roche and Hart.
The thing that baffles me is the US census from 1900 (where she lived at the time before moving to the UK), where her date of birth is listed as July 1870, the 1939 England and Wales Register where her date of birth is listed as 2 July 1968, and the 1911 and 1921 England censuses where her place of birth is listed as County Cork :-\
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I gained the impression from some posts (Heywood?) that there were births in England, with mother's surname as Hart. In which case there really isn't any question.
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Mary Bridget's siblings all (I think?) seem to have been baptised in the Carlow/Aughrim areas. So the evidence does point to the Fermoy link being a red herring, and that there were inaccuracies in the census data submitted (maybe done by someone on her behalf, maybe deliberate inaccuracies)
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Also there's a record of an Owen Roche Sr and Owen Roche Jr in Monaughrim in Griffith's Valuations from 1853