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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Nickna on Saturday 02 March 24 21:15 GMT (UK)
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Evening everyone
I’m currently researching my great grandfather who I believe was in the machine gun corps during ww1.
My mother, who very sadly is not enjoying the best of health, has always been desperate to know whether the family story we have always been told about my great grandfather losing a leg as a train ran over it is true or, alternatively, whether something else had happened to cause him to lose his leg.
I am desperately searching for information in the hope that I can tell tell my lovely mum the true story behind her grandfather’s injury and hopefully a little about his service.
Following his discharge my great grandfather went on to marry my great grandmother and had 9 (!) children, of whom 8 survived childhood.
I have no information about my great grandfather’s service, but I have uncovered some information which I have to confess I’m struggling to understand as it’s my first adventure into military history.
I would be so very grateful for any help / pointers.
The information I have available is as follows:
William David Gray
DoB 15 November 1897
Place of birth Chiswick
Regimental number 141 412
Date of enlistment 24 April 1915
Date of discharge 28 June 1919
Silver war medal number B28633
I have also inserted a screenshot of the official sources I have located (although embarrassingly I’m struggling a little to understand). The photo I have of his silver war star entry is too large to be attached.
Thank you in advance for any help anyone is able to offer (particularly about the missing leg!).
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What you have is his Medal Roll Index showing the period he served. Para 392 etc means he was released early due to permanent physical illness
Unfortunately over 60% of WW1 service records were burnt during the WW2 blitz. Those that survived are on the subscription sites but I can't find anything for him.
If he lost his leg as a result of a war injury he would have received a War Pension but I can't see any documentation to support that
Some of our RC military experts may be able to interprete the other annotations for you
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Under Reason for Discharge could it say something like "Para[graph] 302 [clause] xvi KR [Kings Regulations] Sick" and perhaps such a regulation says two legs are needed? or loss of one is reason to be discharged?
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Para 392 explained above as per Google
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/silver-war-badge-and-kings-certificate-of-discharge
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Hi both
Thanks so much for your responses.
Yes I had assume that he was medically retired out due to the loss of leg and subsequently received the silver star.
What a shame on the records. It sounds as if it’s going to be one of those stories we may never get to the bottom of.
Hopefully someone might be able to point me in the right direction regiment / battalion wise so I could at least tell mum what he got up to.
Appreciate your posts
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The other significant piece of information on the index card is that he was previously in the 7th battalion of the London Regiment with the regimental number 3906. My guess is that this was the unit he joined on 24 April 1915.The Machine Gun Corps was formed in October 1915 and initially took men from the infantry battalions who had machine gun experience, so this is possibly why he was transferred. The London Regiment was exclusively made up of Territorial Force men. There was no Regular battalion.
He was awarded the Victory Medal and the British War Medal based on the medal roll MGC/101/B88 List /782 submitted to the Warl Office by the MGC.
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More on the activities of the Machine Gun Corps here: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/
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There is a pension record in Fold3 (via Ancestry) - found by searching via his soldier no. 3906.
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There is a surviving army medical progress report from 72 Gen H (General Hospital?) Trouville which lists his condition as "Amp L. Thigh" and "Dangerously Ill" as at 2 September 1918.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007407525%2F00426&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2FSUPP%2F548772
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https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61588/?name=william++david_gray
Ady
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My grandfather was also in the Machine Gun Corp in WW!
I was lucky enough to find his service records had survived the war BUT there is very little on there about the MGC part. In fact there is a section with approximately 9 months with no information (October 1916 to July 1917) .............. the record jumps from when he was transferred to the MGC, and then boarding a ship in Bombay to get to "Mesopotamia" which is basically the Iran/Iraq area.
I have discovered that the MGC has lots of secrets tied up with it. It was set up in 2015, and took infantry men who were good with machine guns, whether that be from battalions in the field or straight out of training, as happened to my grandfather. But it is what happened after the war that is very strange. The MGC was disbanded in late 1919 or early 1920, and the records stored at Battalion Headquarters near Folkestone, but there then was a fire in February that literally destroyed every single piece of paper.
A group of 100,000 men and officers formed and then disbanded, and almost nothing to show for the fact they did exist.
It's very hard to find out where the MGC Battalions fought, although I have records of my grandfather being in and out of hospital in Baghdad and Ramadia with minor injuries and then flu.
Unfortunately, my mother's younger brother inherited all my grandfather's medals, photos and whatever documents he had, and I had already moved to Canada. After my uncle died, his wife burnt everything without contacting me .......... I was by that point the only grandchild alive as my brother had died a couple of years previously. We had been the only grandchildren.
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Of interest there is the Machine Gun Corps Old Comrades Association [MGC/OCA] who have a facebook group.
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There is also a website
Regimental Association dedicated to preserving the memory of the men who served in the Machine Gun Corps (MGC) during WW1.
www.machineguncorps.co.uk
Covers MGC Infantry, Cavalry, Motors, Naval Brigade and Heavy Branch which was father of the Tank Corps. All are discussed here.
PLEASE NOTE: I OFTEN COPY ITEMS FROM THIS PAGE TO OUR MAGAZINE, IF YOU DON'T WANT ME TO REPRODUCE WORDS OR PHOTOGRAPHS, PLEASE TELL ME.
Also try Graham Sacker's database https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/d9e38bfe-ef6d-4174-a108-579f7f64311f
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Deleted
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It was actually disbanded in July 1922
[/quote]. The MGC was disbanded in late 1919 or early 1920, and the records stored at Battalion Headquarters near Folkestone, but there then was a fire in February that literally destroyed every single piece of paper.
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Hopefully someone might be able to point me in the right direction regiment / battalion wise so I could at least tell mum what he got up to
Per the medical report I mentioned, he was in 15th (or possibly 13th) battalion "MGC PS"
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Looking at ShaunJ's snippet I believe it says 15th. Machine Gun Coy. rather than Btn.
The 15th. Btn. MGC was made up of the MG Coys. of the Scottish Regt's.
His number indicates he went probably late 1916 as he doesn't have the 6 digit no.
of the 7/Londons issued in early 1917.
The first 3000 MGC no's. went to the motorised MGC so the first no. for the Coys. was 3001.
Your man had no. 141412.
The 15 Coy. became the 5th. Btn. MGC in April 1918.
Looking at his date of entry into the Gen. Hospital (Sept. 3rd.)
I would suggest one of these two battles.
The Second Battles of the Somme 1918 in phases
The Battle of Albert (under IV Corps) (21-23 August)
The Second Battle of Bapaume (IV Corps) (31 August – 3 September)
Courtesy of the LLT.
15/MG Coy. was originally in the 15th. Bde. 5th. Div.
In April 1918 became the 5th. Btn. MGC 95th. Bde. in the same Div.
The War Diary states there were 57 casualties for the month of August
& 97 in Sept.
That's my take on it.
As an aside if it is the 13th. they did exactly the same as the 15th.
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Oh my goodness. You’re all amazing!! I’ve just managed to log on after running after my three year old all day and what a fab surprise. Thanks to you all for taking time
out to respond.
Sylvia I’m so sorry to hear about the document destruction- how heartbreaking.
Andy J2022 thanks so my for details on his earlier history. A great line of enquiry for me to pick up that I hadn’t realised existed.
ShaunJ and Jim1 that’s just fantastic, thank you so much for the information my mum is going to be thrilled.
Interestingly I have just read a little about the Battle of Bapaume and there is reference to a railway line - so maybe the old family story about him his leg after a train ran over it was true after all. Frustratingly it feels like one of those mysteries that may never be sold thanks to the faulty comprehensive loss of papers.
Thanks for the Facebook group tip youngtug, I’ll join and, needle in a haystack I know, but see whether anyone knows anything at all.
I’ve added a photo of William. I’ve had to compress it so I’m hoping it’s clear. The photographer very kindly tried to hide his lost leg but having him stand by a pillar, but you can just see that his left trouser leg is pinned up.
Thank you all so much, whilst I can’t give my lovely mum her definitive answer, at least I can fill in some of the blanks for her. Really appreciate it !
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jim1
What can you tell me from my grandfather's MGC# ..........64698?
He was posted to the 5th Battalion from the 2nd Battalion Manchester Regiment on 17/10/1916
By the time he reappears in Bombay on 27/7/17 he was in the No 5 Battalion MGGC, ? 123rd Company, then was posted to the 128th Machine Gun Company, part of the Mesopotamian Expeditionary Force, in Amara on 15/08/17.
I have a lot on his time in "Mesopotamia, but there is just a blank record between Oct 17 2016 and July 27 1917
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According to his record he attested into the Mancs. & went into Reserve until
17/10/16 & posted to the 5th. Coy. MGC 5th. Bde. 2nd. Div. who were in France throughout the war.
So he was involved in operation there until being posted to Bombay.
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According to his record he attested into the Mancs. & went into Reserve until
17/10/16 & posted to the 5th. Coy. MGC 5th. Bde. 2nd. Div. who were in France throughout the war.
So he was involved in operation there until being posted to Bombay.
Thank you.
I assumed that was where he was, but didn't have the proof.