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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Wellington66 on Friday 01 March 24 10:30 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Can I have some help please to this question?
If someone committed bigamy and was convicted for the offence would the marriage still be recorded as usual. For example on Freebmd etc.
Thanks for reading
Welly x
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What timescale?
Freebmd is transcribed from whatever the GRO index entry was at that time. If you can't find the marriage - was he using a false name?
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Thank you. Yes I did wonder that same thought. This isn't my research but a friends. From memory as I don't have anything in front of me he married in Scotland in 1952 then sometime between than and a "third" marriage in 1965 the crime was committed. Supposedly in Watford. He uses the name Raymond or Ramon Steen. There are no living people mentioned here.
Welly x
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Yes it would be recorded in the index (in E/W).
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If it was reported in the newspapers - it will probably mention what name he used
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Thank you again Rootchatters.
It is obvious to us now then that he must have used an assumed name. Unfortunately the newspaper account gave no details. He was in court for a different crime but it mentioned he had been brought from jail where he was serving a sentence for bigamy. Such as the joys of family history.
I'll close this topic now.
Welly x
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There is a marriage recorded in St Giles Edinburgh in 1952 for a Ramon Steen ref. 685 / 4 / 404
There may be a record attached to that marriage record regarding the alleged bigamy as they would have needed proof of the first marriage. (unfortunately the record is not available online)
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Thank you, my friend is awaiting this certificate. This was Ramon's first marriage. It was his second marriage in possibly Watford which is eluding us.
Welly x
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Sorry, I misunderstood. Yes, then hopefully the certificate might help.
Welly x
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Vague possibility: There is a marriage in June quarter 1965 between
Ranion Steen and Patricia M Furlong - in Brent 5a 727
ni = m with bad handwriting...maybe? making Ramon Steen
M
Sorry - I have the wrong timeframe - you're looking between 1956 and 1962(date of newspaper article.)
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Thank you.
Yes that is Ramon and his third marriage or rather his second legitimate one!
My friend is looking for a bigamous marriage between 1952 and 1965. Again thank you for helping, All suggestions are always appreciated.
Welly x
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He was b 7.7.1933 & died 2002 in Northampton. Where was he born?
His first wife was b 1935 Scotland - after his bigamous marriage came to light there was presumably a divorce before the 1965 marriage as I can't see any death in either Scotland or England for his first wife before 1965.
Perhaps the divorce docs are the way forward?
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Thank you for more good advice which I shall pass on. I'm posting on here for my friend, she has been researching for many years but has never used "Rootschat".
Ramon was born Edinburgh area. I believe you have found the correct person. He is the only one we could find.
Another strange piece of information we have found .........
Electoral Reg. for Edinburgh 1965 lists
Raymond Steen
Mary W.P. Steen
I know my friend has ordered two certificates. They should be here in the next couple of weeks.
Be interesting to see if they help.
Welly x
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Raymond & Mary WP Steen appear to be together on electoral registers between 1961 and 1966 at least. No Mary in 1955 & 1956 then a gap to 1961. records end in 1966
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What date was the newspaper article you mention in Reply 5 & where was he in prison?
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I'm a little late to the party here but want to make sure I'm reading the posts correctly.
1. Ramon 1st marries 1952 Scotland--to M W P Kinnoch
2 Ramon 2nd marriage 1965 Brent-P M Furlong
3. A Steen/Furlong son born 1966-sadly dies 1966
4 A Steen/Furlong son born 1967
5. A Steen/Furlong daughter born 1968
6. A Steen/Furlong son born 1970
7. Ramon dies 2002 Northampton.
8. M W P Steen marriage 1964 St Giles Edinburgh
9. M W P Marshall on Scottish electoral register 2008-23
10. Ramon appears with wife and 1 son 2002-3 electoral register in Milton Keynes
SS
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Possible death of 2nd wife
STEEN, PATRICIA MARGARET 1937
GRO Reference: DOR Q1/2013 in MANCHESTER (006-1F) Entry Number 508194620
SS
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Depending on the date of the newspaper article referred to above - I'm wondering whether the bigamous marriage was to Patricia Furlong?
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Thank you everyone. I'll try and answer your questions but please bear in mind I am replying from memory as I don't have any information in front of me at the moment.
One correction (sorry my mistake) Ramon Steen was born in Inverkeithing Fife and married in Edinburgh.
The newspaper article was 1962 in Hull.
Patricia Furlong Steen died in Milton Keyes area, cannot recall the year but fairly recently.
Ramon married bigamously between the 1952 marriage and the 1962 court appearance. This is what we are looking for.
I shall be meeting with my friend on Wednesday, hopefully the certificates will have arrived and we will be able to update.
In the meantime thank you for your huge interest.
Welly x
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There is quite a lot of information in the news article which I can't read because I don't have a sub. The marriage was in August 1961 to a 17 year old girl. He then went to Hull in November and tried to marry Elizabeth Ann MEDFORTH who it seems was also aged 17.
Debra :)
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Thank you.
Now to search every marriage 3rd and 4th qtr. in Watford !!!!!!!!! and see if anyone jumps out.
Welly x
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The marriage was in August 1961 to a 17 year old girl.
The 17 year old in Watford had given birth to a child by the time of the court case in May 1962.
Thank you.
Now to search every marriage 3rd and 4th qtr. in Watford !!!!!!!!! and see if anyone jumps out.
and maybe births for the next two qtrs? - nightmare!!
added: there is a reference to Ramon Moir Steen bigamy charge on April 3 1962 on the National Archives site. Its classified as an open document and looks like you can order a copy
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That's a point. Again many thanks. I've tried searching 3rd and 4th qtrs. 1961 Watford with no names but nothing is standing out. I've tried all variations also for Ramon as well as Steen, Campbell and Moir but nothing.
I must be a glutton for punishment. I'm already trying to solve a puzzle for another friend in Aberdeen.
Welly x
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Brilliant Gan Yam.
Welly x
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Info only, The newspaper article in 1964 states Ramon had 5 Children. Believe these were born between 1952-58 in Canonbie & Portabello. Can name 2 who have died.
1. James Campbell Steen 1954-2000 Mother's maiden name Kinnoch
2 Kathleen Steen 1953-2009 " " " " "
.....................................
One interesting marriage I cannot put to rest.
SQ 1961 Watford Raymond M Rickard/ Pauline G Goodrum
Pauline G Goodrum born JQ 1944 (mmn Epton) E. Elloe, Lincs
Pauline would have been aged 17 in 1961
SS
added:
Births Jun 1962
RICKARD (Female) mmn GOODRUM Croydon 5g 51 (Added birth also recorded as Goodrum)
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Info only, The newspaper article in 1964 states Ramon had 5 Children. Believe these were born between 1952-58 in Canonbie & Portabello. Can name 2 who have died.
1. James Campbell Steen 1954-2000 Mother's maiden name Kinnoch
2 Kathleen Steen 1953-2009 " " " " "
.....................................
One interesting marriage I cannot put to rest.
SQ 1961 Watford Raymond M Rickard/ Pauline G Goodrum
Pauline G Goodrum born JQ 1944 (mmn Epton) E. Elloe, Lincs
Pauline would have been aged 17 in 1961
SS
added:
Births Jun 1962
RICKARD (Female) mmn GOODRUM Croydon 5g 51
Sounds reasonable - only one marriage and only one birth with that name combination!!
Added: the Croydon birth is registered under both Goodrum and Rickard! (possibly consequence of the situation?) and it looks like Pauline may have remarried under maiden name a couple of years later!
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With regard to the other 3 children, using just initials for marriages
1. R Moir P S 1970 St Giles to G R R
2. A J S to I M G/W 1976 Newington
3 P P S to P Mc 1976 Newington
SS
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Thank you SS
Very interesting marriage. Could fit. Needs to be investigated further. Thank you for the children as well. Hopefully the certificates will be helpful as well.
Welly x
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Possible death of Pauline G Lloyd, formerly Rickard nee' Goodrum.
LLOYD, PAULINE GILLIAN 1944
GRO Reference: DOR Q1/2000 in LAMBETH (2411F) Reg F55 Entry Number 48
SS
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Pauline Rickard in 1962/3 electoral registers
Pauline Rickard
2 Haynes Close
Lewisham North
Lewisham
Married Alfred W LLoyd 1963 Lewisham
SS
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Thank you ss
Welly x
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As a matter of interest what certificates have you ordereSS
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This enquiry is for my friend and at the moment she is at work, we shall post on Wedneday which is her first opportunity to concentrate on family history. Thank you for all your help I have noted everything down that has been suggested. I think one certificate was for Ramon Steen's birth and the other is a marriage certificate.
Welly x
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The certificates have arrived.
Firstly
Birth Certificate
Ramon Steen born 7th July 1933 Inverkeithing Fife.
Parents Campbell Steen and Rachel Erskine Cation Steen m.s. Brodie.
Marriage Certificate
17th June 1952 St. Giles Edinburgh
Ramon Steen m Mary Waters Prior Kinnoch.
Interestingly and the information on the reverse of the certificate states
Corrected Entries
9th July 1964 Decree of Divorce pronounced.
Mary Waters Prior Kinnoch or Steen 16 Craigmiller Castle Terrace Edinburgh against
Ramon Steen (otherwise Ramon Campbell Steen or Ramond Moir Steen) at present in H.M. Prison Armley Leeds 12.
We are still trying to find a marriage between 1957/8 and 1962 when Ramon Steen appears in court for bigamy.
Welly x
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An update for everyone.
We have found the bigamous marriage in 1961. Thank you SS your hunch was correct.
He was using an assumed name but still used his middle name. Raymond Moir Rickard instead of Ramon Moir Steen. He said he was 24 years old not 27 years old. Strangely he gave his father as Campbell Moir Rickard. Fancy using his fathers correct christian names.
We are still awaiting the National Archives documents which will not be available until April.
Thank you for everyone's help.
Welly x
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Can I ask if you found any more information regarding this,
Pauline gillian goodram is my nan.
Her child born to my nan and Raymond moir rickard is my mum, we have been searching for years for answers regarding this. Sadly since nan passed away we have had no way of finding out anything.
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An update for everyone.
We have found the bigamous marriage in 1961. Thank you SS your hunch was correct.
He was using an assumed name but still used his middle name. Raymond Moir Rickard instead of Ramon Moir Steen. He said he was 24 years old not 27 years old. Strangely he gave his father as Campbell Moir Rickard. Fancy using his fathers correct christian names.
We are still awaiting the National Archives documents which will not be available until April.
Thank you for everyone's help.
Welly x
Did the documents ever arrive?
SS
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An update for everyone.
We have found the bigamous marriage in 1961. Thank you SS your hunch was correct.
He was using an assumed name but still used his middle name. Raymond Moir Rickard instead of Ramon Moir Steen. He said he was 24 years old not 27 years old. Strangely he gave his father as Campbell Moir Rickard. Fancy using his fathers correct christian names.
We are still awaiting the National Archives documents which will not be available until April.
Thank you for everyone's help.
Welly x
Did the documents ever arrive?
SS
Interested to know as this man is my mums dad and the person he married is my na
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Hi SS
Thank you for the reminder. I will be seeing my friend (her research) next week and I will enquire.
Welly x
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Hi SS
Thank you for the reminder. I will be seeing my friend (her research) next week and I will enquire.
Welly x
Can I ask if you found anything pauline goodrum Is my nan
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Sorry I forgot to post the documents did arrive from the National Archives.
The information they contained was pretty much what we had already discovered.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this post.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all you Rootchatters.
Welly x
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This sorry excuse was my uncle. He had a daughter, Rosemary, born in 1952.
He died in Milton Keynes in 2002.
I never met him and he most certainly wasn't welcome by his family.
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I have messaged you. Welly x