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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: Dafydd Hywel on Wednesday 21 February 24 17:44 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for a woman called Mary Ann Evans, which lived at Llaethdy, Pontyberem in 1901. I am unable to find the 1901 Census for Llaethdy, but found out that a Mr J Rees lived there in Sept. 1901.
Anyone can find the 1891 or 1901 Census for Llaethdy, Pontyberem & also a Mary Ann Evans born 11 Dec 1887 at Gwendraeth Row. Her mother's name was Jane Evans & there is no mention of a father.
There is another Mary Ann Evans with parents Thomas & Jane Evans living at Ty Poeth, Llannon - this is a different Mary Ann Evans.
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I can see from newspapers there was a J, W and Ll Rees recorded with the address Llaethdy, Pontyberem (nearly all competing at the local produce show)
This is the family in Llaethdy in 1911 - address is transcribed as Llacthdy. it's not a huge help as he and his parents are in the Maesteg area in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7NY-1N9
By dint of searching on 1901 for a family who are a couple of doors down in 1911, I have now tracked down Llaethdy Farm & Llaethdy Cottage on 1901
This is John Rees at the farm: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9B3-4L3
This is next door at Llaethdy Cottage: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9B3-4LJ
Note the 13 year old daughter at the farm - transcribed as Mary Jane Rees by Ancestry
The Reeses aren't at Llaethdy in 1891, but I have tracked them down: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4PNT-G6Z
I think this is her
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Great work Mabel. I note the Mary Evans (age 3) with the Rees family in 1891 is listed as an adopted child and in 1901 her name “mutates” to Mary Evans Rees. So I am guessing this is a different Mary Evans and not Mary Ann Evans with mother Jane.
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Ages of the Rees’s in the census records are not always consistent (!) but I think this is them below:
In 1881 the Rees family are at Plascoedca, Llannon. John (39), Mary (45), Louisa (18), Ann (10), Thomas (7), William (5), Stephen (1.5) and Nephew John Lewis (2). All born Llannon.
In 1901 Daughter Louisa, as widow Louisa Griffiths (35), is living next door to her parents at Llaethdy Cottage, with children Thomas (15), Ivor (4) and Alice (2). With Louisa’s parents at Llaethdy is grandson Isaac Griffiths age 10 (Louisa’s son).
In 1891 Louisa (25) is at Plasbach with her husband William Griffiths (25) Llanelly and their children Thomas J (3) and Isaac (1 month, who is with his grandparents in 1901), both born Llannon
This must be Isaac’s birth entry confirming her as Louisa Rees.
GRIFFITHS, ISAAC REES
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 1047
I think later census entries for Louisa’s birth is correct (born around 1866) and this is her birth entry
REES, LOUISA EVANS
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 680
So mmn Evans
However, for John and Mary Rees’s son Stephen I think this is his birth entry
REES, STEPHEN LEWIS
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 781
So mmn Rees.
In 1881 there is a large gap in ages between children of John and Mary Rees (Louisa (18) then Ann (10)).
My guess (I could well be wrong!) is that John Rees actually married 2 different Mary’s first a Mary Evans and then a Mary Lewi. Perhaps others can agree/disagree?
If John did marry twice and his first wife was a Mary Evans then maybe Mary Ann Evans who was adopted by John Rees was a descendant of his wife?
As an aside I think Dau Louisa later marries a George Rogers of Bath/Somerset who was lodging with John Rees and family at Llaerhdy in 1901
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I have been looking for candidates for Mary Ann Evans mother, Jane, in earlier censuses. Mary Ann was born 1887 Gwendraeth Row. This is a Jane Evans age 1 month living at Gwendraeth row in 1861 and a couple of candidates for her birth entry in the GRO
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This is Jane again in 1871 at Gwendraeth Row
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I can’t obviously find this Jane Evans in 1881 but perhaps others can?
Also Jane’s relationship in 1861 and 1871 to others in the census is confusing but perhaps others can unravel?
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Great work Mabel. I note the Mary Evans (age 3) with the Rees family in 1891 is listed as an adopted child and in 1901 her name “mutates” to Mary Evans Rees. So I am guessing this is a different Mary Evans and not Mary Ann Evans with mother Jane.
I'm not sure why you'd think this is a different Mary Evans. Right name, right age and right address in 1901? She's not necessarily going to be with her mother in 1891.
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I think you may have the wrong birth reg for Louisa
I've found John and Mary Rees in Llanguicke in 1871 - Louisa transcribed by Ancestry as Lewis A. She's listed as age 6, and in other censuses is 18, 25 and 35 so an 1867 birth looks a little late
I think she may have been Mary's child from before the marriage,
LEWIS, LOUISA
No mmn
Q1 1865 LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 640
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I can’t obviously find this Jane Evans in 1881 but perhaps others can?
Also Jane’s relationship in 1861 and 1871 to others in the census is confusing but perhaps others can unravel?
Not sure about Jane
I think there's a combination of three couples children in those censuses
John Thomas and wife 1
child: Thomas Thomas (so John's son in 1861, Mary's step son in 1871)
John then marries Mary Evans - hence the Evans step children in 1861
They have children Margaret and Joseph Thomas
On 1861 Mary has sons Joseph and George Evans - so John's step sons
Here she is with her first husband in 1851 in Abernant, Llanddarog. Children b Llannon
George Evans 24 b Llanddarog
Mary Evans 29 b LLanarthney
David Evans 6
Joseph Evans 4
John Evans 1
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Great work Mabel. I note the Mary Evans (age 3) with the Rees family in 1891 is listed as an adopted child and in 1901 her name “mutates” to Mary Evans Rees. So I am guessing this is a different Mary Evans and not Mary Ann Evans with mother Jane.
I'm not sure why you'd think this is a different Mary Evans. Right name, right age and right address in 1901? She's not necessarily going to be with her mother in 1891.
Sorry, your correct
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I can’t obviously find this Jane Evans in 1881 but perhaps others can?
Also Jane’s relationship in 1861 and 1871 to others in the census is confusing but perhaps others can unravel?
Not sure about Jane
I think there's a combination of three couples children in those censuses
John Thomas and wife 1
child: Thomas Thomas (so John's son in 1861, Mary's step son in 1871)
John then marries Mary Evans - hence the Evans step children in 1861
They have children Margaret and Joseph Thomas
On 1861 Mary has sons Joseph and George Evans - so John's step sons
Here she is with her first husband in 1851 in Abernant, Llanddarog. Children b Llannon
George Evans 24 b Llanddarog
Mary Evans 29 b LLanarthney
David Evans 6
Joseph Evans 4
John Evans 1
Great work again. Looking at Jane Evans, in 1861 and 1871 she was born Llanddarog, so her birth would have been registered in Carmarthen not Llanelly, so the below is more likely to be her, another illegitimacy
EVANS, JANE mmn -
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in CARMARTHEN Volume 11A Page 588
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I see Mary Thomas has a sister Jane Evans (unmarried, b c1823) with her in 1881.
Might be young Jane's mother?
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I think you may have the wrong birth reg for Louisa
I've found John and Mary Rees in Llanguicke in 1871 - Louisa transcribed by Ancestry as Lewis A. She's listed as age 6, and in other censuses is 18, 25 and 35 so an 1867 birth looks a little late
I think she may have been Mary's child from before the marriage,
LEWIS, LOUISA
No mmn
Q1 1865 LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 640
Good spot with the “Lewis A” and the GRO entry then makes sense
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Possible marriage for John Thomas and Mary Evans?
Q1 1860 Carmarthen Vol 11a p749
Evans David
Evans Mary
Lewis Elizabeth
Thomas John
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I see Mary Thomas has a sister Jane Evans (unmarried, b c1823) with her in 1881.
Might be young Jane's mother?
Looks like you are correct, with Jane born 03 Mar 1861 Porthyrhydd, Llanddarog, mother Jane Evans, no father listed
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I think Jane (the mother) is at Ysanteg(?) Llanddarog in 1851, age 29, unmarried a Labourer’s daughter. With her is a brother Thomas Evans, age 21, unmarried a collier.
In 1861 I think sh is “resident” at Garnlwydfawr, age 38, unmarried a dressmaker, born Llanddarog. Garnlwydfawr is a farm owned by John Griffiths age 50 of Llangunnor.
I can’t obviously find her in 1871.
In 1881 she is with her sister age 58 a former Laundress.
I think this may the marriage of Thomas Evans in Llanddarog. 22 Jul 1859, Thomas Evans, age 30, Bachelor, Collier of Pantig(?) and Margaret Jones, age 28, Spinster of Rhyd-y-Dalan. Fathers were John Evans and Thomas Jones, both Farmers.
In 1861 Thomas and Margaret are at Tregursens(?), Llanddarog. Thomas 32 a Collier of Llanddarog and Margaret 30 of Llangendeirne with a Daughter Mary Evans age 1 of Llanddarog.
In 1871 same address, Llanddarog
John 43 Collier
Margaret 39
Jemima Jones 21 Step Dau Seamstress Llanddarog
Mary Evans 11 Dau
Catherine Evans 3 Dau
David Evans 1 son
I think this is the birth entry for Dau Catherine which gave me the mmn of Jones
EVANS, CATHERINE mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in CARMARTHEN Volume 11A Page 762
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Any suggestions for what the crossed out word is in the attached?
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I think it says 'Homing'
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Hi Hywel
Do you have the details from the marriage of Mary Ann Evans to Gwilym John Evans in 1907. I would be interesting to know what her address at marriage is and whether any details are entered for her father.
Regards
Roy
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Any suggestions for what the crossed out word is in the attached?
I wondered if it was "nursing" - a slightly odd way of saying nurse child, i.e. a child being boarded out/fostered, often of an unmarried mother away working elsewhere
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Any suggestions for what the crossed out word is in the attached?
I wondered if it was "nursing" - a slightly odd way of saying nurse child, i.e. a child being boarded out/fostered, often of an unmarried mother away working elsewhere
I agree, that looks to be correct and would make sense. Thanks
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Possible marriage for John Thomas and Mary Evans?
Q1 1860 Carmarthen Vol 11a p749
Evans David
Evans Mary
Lewis Elizabeth
Thomas John
The marriage is actually in 1861, in Ancestry parish records on 05 Mar 1861, Llannon. John Thomas, full age, widower, labourer of Row, Llannon to Mary Evans, full age, widow of Row, Llannon. Fathers John Thomas and John Evans respectively bot deceased, no profession given
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I am not sure if the proposed first Marriage of Mary Evans to George Evans is correct? There is a marriage in 17 Feb 1846 in Llanddarog of George Evans, full age, bachelor, collier of Mount Pleasant to Mary Evans, full age, Spinster of Llwynfiod(?). Fathers Thomas Evans, Schoolmaster and John Evans Shoemaker respectively. Mary Evans father as a Shoemaker rather than a labourer//Farmee is unexpected. The 1851 census entry for this pairing also has Mary’s birthplace as Llanarthney while it is Llanddarog in all other censuses. I would welcome thoughts on this
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Possible marriage for John Thomas and Mary Evans?
Q1 1860 Carmarthen Vol 11a p749
Evans David
Evans Mary
Lewis Elizabeth
Thomas John
The marriage is actually in 1861, in Ancestry parish records on 05 Mar 1861, Llannon. John Thomas, full age, widower, labourer of Row, Llannon to Mary Evans, full age, widow of Row, Llannon. Fathers John Thomas and John Evans respectively bot deceased, no profession given
That looks right - not sure why I didn't spot it when I was searching before
I am not sure if the proposed first Marriage of Mary Evans to George Evans is correct? There is a marriage in 17 Feb 1846 in Llanddarog of George Evans, full age, bachelor, collier of Mount Pleasant to Mary Evans, full age, Spinster of Llwynfiod(?). Fathers Thomas Evans, Schoolmaster and John Evans Shoemaker respectively. Mary Evans father as a Shoemaker rather than a labourer//Farmee is unexpected. The 1851 census entry for this pairing also has Mary’s birthplace as Llanarthney while it is Llanddarog in all other censuses. I would welcome thoughts on this
That is interesting. I was working backwards from Joseph Evans, Mary's son on 1861, b c1847 in Llannon. The only one I could find was with the George and Mary pairing (and her having a son called George b 1853 made this potential father look appealing).
Following George jnr forward, he marries in 1872. His address Gwendraeth Row. States his father is George
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Possible marriage for John Thomas and Mary Evans?
Q1 1860 Carmarthen Vol 11a p749
Evans David
Evans Mary
Lewis Elizabeth
Thomas John
The marriage is actually in 1861, in Ancestry parish records on 05 Mar 1861, Llannon. John Thomas, full age, widower, labourer of Row, Llannon to Mary Evans, full age, widow of Row, Llannon. Fathers John Thomas and John Evans respectively bot deceased, no profession given
That looks right - not sure why I didn't spot it when I was searching before
I am not sure if the proposed first Marriage of Mary Evans to George Evans is correct? There is a marriage in 17 Feb 1846 in Llanddarog of George Evans, full age, bachelor, collier of Mount Pleasant to Mary Evans, full age, Spinster of Llwynfiod(?). Fathers Thomas Evans, Schoolmaster and John Evans Shoemaker respectively. Mary Evans father as a Shoemaker rather than a labourer//Farmee is unexpected. The 1851 census entry for this pairing also has Mary’s birthplace as Llanarthney while it is Llanddarog in all other censuses. I would welcome thoughts on this
That is interesting. I was working backwards from Joseph Evans, Mary's son on 1861, b c1847 in Llannon. The only one I could find was with the George and Mary pairing (and her having a son called George b 1853 made this potential father look appealing).
Following George jnr forward, he marries in 1872. His address Gwendraeth Row. States his father is George
Thanks for the feedback. I don’t think the marriage can be discounted entirely. I can’t find a GRO entry for son Joseph but this does seem to be the entry for son George
EVANS, GEORGE mmn EVANS
GRO Reference: 1853 M Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 453
There is another possible marriage of a George Evans to a Mary Evans in “Carmarthen” in 1848. Jun Qtr, Carmarthen 26 841, but because there are multiple entries with the same reference number this George could equally have married an Anne Daniel, Maria Howells or an Elizabeth Philipps.
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Finding Mary (1820), sister Jane (1823) and potential brother Thomas (1829) in 1841 with a father John could help resolve things but I have not found anything obvious but maybe others can? Finding who was at Llwynfiod(?) in 1841 might also help, but not an easy task.
The nearest I have come up with is attached. In Llanddarog in 1841, Father is John a shoemaker and has daughters Mary and Jane (though their ages are off) and no mention of a son Thomas
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On reviewing Jane is probably Janet, so not them
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Hi Hywel
Do you have the details from the marriage of Mary Ann Evans to Gwilym John Evans in 1907. I would be interesting to know what her address at marriage is and whether any details are entered for her father.
Regards
Roy
Roy
Her address on Wedding Certificate in 1907 is Llaethdy, Pontyberem. Where the father name is its just got a line through it.
Her Birth Certificate shows Mary Ann, Mother Jane Evans, Gwendraeth Row, Llannon. Again ther is just a line in the father
Hywel
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This newspaper article looks interesting as a possible father to Mary Ann Evans. It was in Herald of Wales, Swansea Newspaper on 16 June & 20 June 1888
Hywel
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Although in Llanarthney rather than Llanddarog this is the best match I can find for Jane Evans and Brother Thomas in 1841. They are of around the right age and where people were in 1841 was not always an indication of where they were born
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Hi Hywel
Do you have the details from the marriage of Mary Ann Evans to Gwilym John Evans in 1907. I would be interesting to know what her address at marriage is and whether any details are entered for her father.
Regards
Roy
Roy
Her address on Wedding Certificate in 1907 is Llaethdy, Pontyberem. Where the father name is its just got a line through it.
Her Birth Certificate shows Mary Ann, Mother Jane Evans, Gwendraeth Row, Llannon. Again ther is just a line in the father
Hywel
Thanks Hywel, that’s very interesting. I does seem to confirm that she was adopted by the Rees family, who 1901 (at Llaethdy) renamed her to Mary Evans Rees but when she married used her born and 1901 name of Mary Ann Rees.
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This newspaper article looks interesting as a possible father to Mary Ann Evans. It was in Herald of Wales, Swansea Newspaper on 16 June & 20 June 1888
Hywel
That’s a great find, he does seem to be a very good contender for the Father
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This newspaper article looks interesting as a possible father to Mary Ann Evans. It was in Herald of Wales, Swansea Newspaper on 16 June & 20 June 1888
Hywel
That’s a great find, he does seem to be a very good contender for the Father
Although reported in the Herald of Wales Swansea, was it under Swansea news or Carmarthen/Llanelly news? If Swansea it would suggest James may have been from the Swansea area and/or Jane was living in the Swansea are at the time Mary Ann was conceived
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Just spotted an indirect connection in 1851. Mary Evans (with proposed/probable first husband George Evans) is on page 1 of Llanddarog district 1d register at address Abernant, while her probable brother and sister Jane and Thomas are on page 2 at address Ysanteg.
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It's rather odd handwriting, so I think Jane and Thomas' address is Panteg
They're just down the road on the census from Llwynteg - as is Panteg on this map
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/8aa99c11-2ce1-4cce-8163-c517c97e734e
Just a little further up the road is Mount Pleasant home of George Evans when he married Mary
And a little further away is a record of a place called Llwyn y Piad, which might be her address on the marriage
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/2a197d6a-8878-42de-8d51-74f3c60457b2
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It's rather odd handwriting, so I think Jane and Thomas' address is Panteg
They're just down the road on the census from Llwynteg - as is Panteg on this map
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/8aa99c11-2ce1-4cce-8163-c517c97e734e
Just a little further up the road is Mount Pleasant home of George Evans when he married Mary
And a little further away is a record of a place called Llwyn y Piad, which might be her address on the marriage
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/2a197d6a-8878-42de-8d51-74f3c60457b2
Thank you Mabel. On review, I think you are spot on with the address in 1851 actually being Panteg! This fits perfectly, as Thomas Evans, Bachelor, collier of PANTEG marries a Margaret Jones, spinster age 28 of Rhyd-y-Dalan on 22 Jul 1859 in Llanddarog. Fathers John Evans, Farmer and Thomas Evans, Farmer respectively. This Thomas in later censuses gives a consistent year of birth and also a place of birth as Llanddarog.
We still have the discrepancy of Mary Evans father John Evans, Shoemaker and Thomas Evans father John Evans, Farmer. However, I do have other instances in my tree of father’s having different occupations through time and as times, their circumstances and health changed. Mary being older may remember her Father as being primarily a shoemaker while Thomas born later remembers him more as a Farmer.
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I thought I'd seen Panteg somewhere in this thread before!
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Llwyn y Piad is a great guess for the address of Mary Evans in her marriage to George Evans in 1846. If we could find this address in 1841 and who was living there we might get more clues
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In 1841 Llainmansel has a John Evans aged 45, occupation - Shoe??
John aged 25
Mary aged 15
William aged 20
Jane aged 14
Joannah aged 10
Hywel
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Llwyn y Piad is a great guess for the address of Mary Evans in her marriage to George Evans in 1846. If we could find this address in 1841 and who was living there we might get more clues
I found Llwyn y Piad in 1841 with Thomas Thomas & Louisa Living there, but next one up in Plas Uchaf, there is a John Evans aged 25, which puts him too young to be the one we looking for!
There is a Jane Evans aged 15 on the same page living at Gilfach yr hen, Llanarthney. It looks like this location is on the border with Llanddarog.
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I think it's possible Mary might have been living in as a servant at Llwynypiod when she married, so looking back a few years might not help
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I have also managed to find Llwyn y pied in 1851. There is an Eliezer Evans age 32 and his wife Emiah (Rees) there, married 06 Apr 1841, Llanarthney. I did consider if they were related Mary Evans as Eliezer’s father is also a John Evans who was a General Labourer of Tower Lodge born abt 1781. Eliezer is with his parents and various other siblings in 1841 but no sign of Mary, Jane or Thomas with them, which makes me think there is no direct relationship between Eliezer, Mary, Jane and Thomas, though there maybe some other connection
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Just spotted an indirect connection in 1851. Mary Evans (with proposed/probable first husband George Evans) is on page 1 of Llanddarog district 1d register at address Abernant, while her probable brother and sister Jane and Thomas are on page 2 at address Ysanteg.
This was under Llanelly news - https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-viewer?issue=BL%2F0003035%2F18880616&page=8
I'll email you a copy of the page Roy.
Hywel
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Just spotted an indirect connection in 1851. Mary Evans (with proposed/probable first husband George Evans) is on page 1 of Llanddarog district 1d register at address Abernant, while her probable brother and sister Jane and Thomas are on page 2 at address Ysanteg.
This was under Llanelly news - https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-viewer?issue=BL%2F0003035%2F18880616&page=8
I'll email you a copy of the page Roy.
Hywel
Thanks, I have received it. So I think we can assume the probable father of Mary Ann, James Williams, was from the “Llanelly” area. There are plenty of Williams but James is not such a common name as some. They said he looked about 15 but guess probably just looked young for his age. So any James Williams born abt 1873 or earlier and living in the area are possible contenders.
He could be included in “goal” registers for Carmarthen for 1888, which would give more detail, but I am not sure where to look
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The Carmarthen Goal records for 1888 are at West Glamorgan Archive in Swansea. I will go there to have a look as I have an archive member card. It will be about 5-6 weeks before I can go as I am having work done on the house until then.
I'll contact Glamorgan History Society in the mean time to see if they have access to them.
I found a James Williams of Llanegwad, born 1875. In 1881 Census he was an Inmate pauper at Llandilo Fawr Work House.
Hywel
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The Carmarthen Goal records for 1888 are at West Glamorgan Archive in Swansea. I will go there to have a look as I have an archive member card. It will be about 5-6 weeks before I can go as I am having work done on the house until then.
I'll contact Glamorgan History Society in the mean time to see if they have access to them.
I found a James Williams of Llanegwad, born 1875. In 1881 Census he was an Inmate pauper at Llandilo Fawr Work House.
Hywel
Sounds like a good plan. It may be worth emailing them in advance to have a look for you westglam.archives@swansea.gov.uk. Some archive services are more helpful than others. From memory I think Swansea are pretty good. They could at least potentially check for you before hand to see if there is an entry for James and it may in turn save you a visit and/or make your visit more worthwhile.
James Williams 1875 of Llanegwad would only have been 13 in 1888. There is a James Williams born 1873 Llanelly, living in Dillwyn Street, therefore 15 in 1888. However, as said previously his looks might not be an accurate indicator of his age and he could well be older
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Look what I found on Ancestry.
James Williams, Bastardy Arrears on 13 June 1888 at Llanelly. Age 17 from Llwynhendy, Carmarthenshire.
Hywel
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and again
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What great finds Hywel, well done. In which Ancestry collection were these? I presume he continued to refuse to pay, hence the 2nd entry. In the first he is 17 and the 2nd 18, so his birth month must be between Jun and Sep therefore born around Jul/Aug 1870. Searching the GRO for James Williams born “Llanelly” in 1870 only brings up 3 entries
WILLIAMS, JAMES mmn LAWRENCE
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 704
WILLIAMS, JAMES mmn THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1870 S Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 619
WILLIAMS, JAMES mmn JAMES
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 613
If he was born around Jul/Aug 1870 then the middle one registered in sep Qtr with mother’s maiden name Thomas seems the most likely. You can now get instantly downloadable copies of birth certificates from the GRO for £2.50. If you purchase this it will give you the names of his parents and you know he was in Llwynhendy in 1888, so, hopefully, from this information you will be able to find him in census records.
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P.S. I think you can definitely discount the first James Williams entry. This James was the son of William Williams and Elizabeth Lawrence born Blaengwasted, Pembrey. He was 10 months old in the 1871 census and I have him dying Mar Qtr 1872.
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There is this James Williams, 8 months old in 1871 as a candidate.
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There is this James Williams, 8 months old in 1871 as a candidate.
I think this family is a strong contender as from the GRO entries for siblings of this James their mother’s maiden is indicated as Thomas as well e.g.
WILLIAMS, AARON mmn THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 682
WILLIAMS, HANNAH mmn THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 506
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The census entries for this family are recorded in Berwick District. James from his goal records is from Llwynhendy. I have found this which links them together “ Llwynhendy, a place in Berwick hamlet, Llanelly parish, Carmarthenshire, 2½ miles SE of Llanelly. It has a post and money order office under Llanelly; telegraph office, Bynea railway station. It has a church attached to Dafen ecclesiastical parish, and Baptist and Calvinistic Methodistchapels.”
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Roy
That's great work you done there. I found the Goal record under Court, land, wills & financial on Ancestry. I only looked as I could see US records available. If I did a generic search for him and then go into the options, nothing showed up.
James Williams shows as born 18 Aug 1870 at Cefncaiau, Llanelly. Cefncaiau is behind Llwynhendy and inbetween Llwynhendy and Bryn, Carms. His father is Joseph Williams and his mother is Ann Williams formely Thomas.
Berwick is an area near Llwynhendy and Bynea and it's the land near the sea,
Hywel
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In 1857 Joseph Williams lived at Farm Fach, Hengoed, Llanelly as Nephew to William Davies & Hannah. His father is not shown on the Wedding Certificate.
I believe this is the correct Wedding Certificate as it's the only one that matches. The only other marriage between a Joseph William & Anne Thomas was in Llandilofawr. It looks like the 1st child is born illegitimaty.
In 1881 it does look like Joseph has remarried to a Margaret and living at Pemberton, Llanelly.
Hywel
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In 1879 there is a Marriage Bann between a Joseph Williams & Margaret Daniel at Dafen, Carmarthenshire.
In Q4 1880 there is a GRO reference to a Marriage between Joseph Williams & Margaret Daniel at Llanelly, Carms.
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Great stuff. We’re on a roll!
This is possibly James married to a Margaret Ann Thomas in 1911. It states they were born Llwynhendy and were living at Myrtle Cottage, Llwynhendy.
WILLIAMS James and THOMAS Margaret Ann Mar Qtr 1892, Llanelly 11a 1152.
Married around the same time as their first born
WILLIAMS, JOHN JAMES mmn THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 1002
The only negative is that in in 1911 states this James born 1871 and 1901 born 1872, so not born 1870. I suppose only getting a copy of the marriage cert would confirm for definite, it’s not in Parish records
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Great stuff. We’re on a roll!
This is possibly James married to a Margaret Ann Thomas in 1911. It states they were born Llwynhendy and were living at Myrtle Cottage, Llwynhendy.
WILLIAMS James and THOMAS Margaret Ann Mar Qtr 1892, Llanelly 11a 1152.
Married around the same time as their first born
WILLIAMS, JOHN JAMES mmn THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 1002
The only negative is that in in 1911 states this James born 1871 and 1901 born 1872, so not born 1870. I suppose only getting a copy of the marriage cert would confirm for definite, it’s not in Parish records
This must be James. I have found him in the 1939 register DOB 19 Aug 1870 (1 day out). In 1939 his address is 9 Trallwm Road, in 1901 he and his wife and children are living at Trallwm Cottage. With him in 1939 are children Sarah Catherine and Llewellyn who are also with him in 1911.
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Although they have been inactive for over a year, it may be worth you trying to contact Ancestry Member alcoa1277 . They have exact DOB for all of James children and looks to be descended from his Daughter Mary Hannah Williams 1897
From what I can work out from her tree Mary Hannah had a son Elwyn Williams in 1913
WILLIAMS, ELWYN mmn -
GRO Reference: 1913 D Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 2459
He is with James in 1939, DOB 12 Sep 1913. The tree states Elwyn married an Eluned John 26 Dec 1909 of Swansea who are alcoa277’s parents
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In 1857 Joseph Williams lived at Farm Fach, Hengoed, Llanelly as Nephew to William Davies & Hannah. His father is not shown on the Wedding Certificate.
I believe this is the correct Wedding Certificate as it's the only one that matches. The only other marriage between a Joseph William & Anne Thomas was in Llandilofawr. It looks like the 1st child is born illegitimaty.
In 1881 it does look like Joseph has remarried to a Margaret and living at Pemberton, Llanelly.
Hywel
I agree that this is the only marriage that seems to fit. However, as you say this was 2 years after the birth of their first child and Joseph’s profession is “Navigator”, whereas in census records he is a Lead Worker. Perhaps there was such a thing as a Navigator who worked in a Lead Works, I don’t know, perhaps others do? As you say this only leaves the Llandilofawr marriage but as Joseph was from Pembrey and Ann from Llanelly a Llandilofawr marriage does not make sense
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Online search:
Navigator: a Labourer on civil engineering projects, such as railroads, roads and canals. Often an immigrant.
Navvy: an abbreviation of Navigator; a labourer on civil engineering projects, such as railroads, roads and canals.
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Thanks for your support on this one. I have 1 confirmed DNA match via Mary Ann Evans's Mother Jane and there are a few unconfirmed on her father's too.
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I spoke to someone tonight about Mary Ann Evans. Mary Ann lived with him when she was old. Mary Ann has a sister that lives in Treorchy, Wales. Don't have a name for them. He said that her family and her mother Jane was from Treorchy.
He remembers taking Mary Ann up to Treorchy so that she could meet her sister in the Cafe. He does remember a Monnie and Berwyn Hughes up in Treorchy that Mary Ann's sister lived with and they were related, but does not know how.
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There aren’t many Berwyn Hughes around. Could be a red herring but there is Berwyn Hughes born 1937 Pontypridd mmn Morgan
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IF him, in Ancestry electoral rolls in 1962 he lives in Abertonllwyd Street, Treherbert with a David W Hughes and a Dorothy Hughes presumably his parents. In later electoral roles he is in Cardiff with a Carole Hughes and a Berwyn Hughes and a Carole Rich marry in Cardiff in 1971. A David W Hughes and Mary Morgan marry in Pontypridd in 1936
This tree on Ancestry has more on this family https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/117761763/family?cfpid=192558914306 but, as said earlier it could all be a red herring and I am barking up the wrong tree (enough metaphors for one night!)
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I spoke to him again today and he said that Mary Ann was related to Berwyn's Wife called Moonie. He was not sure how it was spelt, but is was pronounced as "Moon E". Moonie's mother was called Lil, probably short for Lilian but they only referred to her as Lil.
I will ask him if he know what year he went up there or how old he was, also how old this Berwyn, Moonie or Lil was at that time.
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Could also be Mooney (Irish name?)? I don’t think it’s them but the only thing remotely close I can find is the marriage of an Alwyn Berwyn Hughes to a Minnie Quiggin in 1894 in Liverpool. Alywyn was born 30 Dec 1866 (1939 register) and was a shipping director. In 1939 was in Holylake, Cheshire. Census records say he was born in Liverpool and his birth is registered in W. Derbyshire and Toxteth Park. Alwyn Berwyn does sound Welsh and his father John Hughes was from Denbigh.
Might be worth asking if Moonie could possibly have been Irish. A guesstimate of Berwyn and Moonie’s ages would also be useful and what year(s) are we talking about for these visits
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A little bit more information - Moni & Berwyn Hughes. Moni's mother was Lili Maud (No Surname yet).
Makes me think that Moni is short for Monica.
The year range they would have met would be 1962 - 1969 - I will try and get a better date and ages.
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I would guess Lili Maud was Lilian Maud. Surnames would be very useful. Berwyn could be a middle name, as could Moni.
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Randomly searching around I found this on Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1731456239:8960?tid=&pid=&queryId=0910b0cb-940f-4209-87b5-306f90dcc650&_phsrc=XQW21&_phstart=successSource . It gives little specific information, but refers to obituaries 2004 onwards. This one specifically for a Monica Rees Hughes of Llannon Road, Pontyberem, husband Berwyn, son Nigel. Perhaps others can find more specific information and/or with your local knowledge it might ring a bell. Certainly I don’t think there are many Monica/Berwyn combinations around.
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Found this funeral notice: Monica ReesHUGHES
Moni Peacefully on Tuesday 6th February 2018 at Glangwili Hospital, Carmarthen; Moni of Llannon Road, Pontyberem. Beloved wife of the late Berwyn, loving mother of Nigel, caring grandmother of Catrin and Simon, proud great grandmother of Holly, Ava and Aidan, dear mother-in-law of the late Susan. Public Funeral Service at Bethel Funeral Home, Pontyberem
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Monica in 1939? https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/40757162:61596?tid=&pid=&queryId=5e74dc18-2428-47a9-8334-11065dfe47d0&_phsrc=XQW22&_phstart=successSource
If so, this would be her birth: Jones Monica R mmn Rees, Sep Qtr 1931, Llanelly 11a 1641
As Mary Ann Evans was adopted by Rees' and Monica's mother was a Rees I wonder if that is where the connection lays?
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This would be the marriage in West Glamorgan in 1953
HUGHES Daniel B L and JONES Monica R, SEP QTR, 1953, W.Glamorgan 8b 1905. I am guessing the B stands for Berwyn.
Daniel B L Hughes probable birth
HUGHES, DANIEL BERWYN LEWIS mmn LEWIS
GRO Reference: 1927 D Quarter in LLANDILOFAWR Volume 11A Page 1682
And his death
Daniel Berwyn L Hughes born 28 Aug 1927 died age 79 Mar 2006 “Carmarthen” B50F 818/1B 029
I think this his him in 1939 with his parents and sister L T L Hughes
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/40745365:61596?tid=&pid=&queryId=1cb299f4-e5a4-42bc-a5c2-8752f9cbb233&_phsrc=QZd2&_phstart=successSource
HUGHES, LILY TEIFINA LEWIS mmn LEWIS
GRO Reference: 1929 S Quarter in LLANDILOFAWR Volume 11A Page 1755
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Monica’s mother must have been Lily Maud Rees
REES, LILY MAUD (WILLIAMS)
GRO Reference: 1905 S Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 1235
In 1939 she is with her parents her husband (Thomas Rees and Jane Williams) Elwyn E Jones and her daughter Monica Rees jones at Broneiron “Llanelly Rural”
I have Lily Maud as a distant relation in my Ancestry tree. Her husband Elwyn (1900-1977) I have as the son of John Jones (1879-1966) who invented the Pontyberem Miner’s Lamp!