RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Aceh on Sunday 11 February 24 15:47 GMT (UK)
-
This is an old problem that I have returned to once and awhile with no certain result.
My 2 x great-great grandmother, Mary was, according to her birth certificate, born on 5 May 1838 at 12, Riding School Lane, Brighton, Sussex. Father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker; Mother Susan Hale formerly Williams. Birth registration: Q2 1838, Brighton, Volume 7, Page 246.
Mary was married on 23 December 1857 at St Paul's Finsbury, Middlesex, to Alfred Cullmer of the Royal London Militia. The marriage certificate records that Mary's father was John Hale, Shoemaker.
Mary has not been found on the 1841 Census, but there was a John Hale aged 30, warehousman in Shoreditch, born within the county, with wife Elizabeth, but I don't think he is connected. Mary has been found in the 1851 Census she is recorded, aged 13 and born in Brighton, as the daughter of Sarah Hale, widow, Shoe Closer, born: "n K". Sarah also has sons aged 4 and 1 month, sugesting that she was only recently widowed. It is interesting to note that on the next line there appears " Harriett Healls", Head, unmarried, aged 29 born London, with daughter Ellen aged 10, born London. Harriett is described as a Shoe Binder. The following page was 'missing' it seems, as it was not sent to me out in Sumatra. Mary appears again, in the 1881 Census, as married to Alfred Cullmer with her place of birth confirmed as Brighton.
As there are several people in this tale named Hale in the shoe making trade, both in Brighton and in London it occurs to me that there may have been an extended family named Hale, in Brighton and possibly later in London, making shoes. Does anyone have any connection with Hale families or the shoemaking trade that might throw some light on this gordian knot? I would like to trace Mary's ancestral line back if that's possible, but for that I do need accurately to establish her parentage - no likely marriage found so far.
-
I would say that the following entry in 1851 says Hall not Hale. The following page does exist and is clearer reading Hall.
-
My 2 x great-great grandmother, Mary was, according to her birth certificate, born on 5 May 1838 at 12, Riding School Lane, Brighton, Sussex. Father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker; Mother Susan Hale formerly Williams. Birth registration: Q2 1838, Brighton, Volume 7, Page 246.
Who registered the birth
-
Thanks Rosi for your swift replies.
1. The birth was registered by Joseph Hale, father.
2. Yes, it's a problem with hand writing. It appeared to me longer than a 4 letter word, but it was the occupation "Shoe Binder" which made me think that she may have been of interest, appearing as she did immediately below Sarah Hale, "Shoe Closer", and daughter Mary.
-
Son William born 10th November 1846 was baptised 8th June 1856 at St Bartholomew By the Exchange, City of London, England - Parents Joseph and Sarah - Ancestry have it transcribed as Hole.
Joseph's occupation given as 'Closer'
Thomas was baptised 1st June 1856 at the same place, his date of birth 26 February 1851, father Joseph, mother Sarah - fathers occupation Book Closer (I think that should be Boot Closer :-\ )
Address was 79 Milton Street.
...
There is a workhouse infirmary admission on 15th September 1883 for a Joseph Hale bn c 1813 - Roman Catholic - occ Shoemaker - Widower
....
What happened to Sarah after 1851
-
Rosi,
Been having a bit of trouble with the rootschat tech, the computer asked for a longer password which i gave it, but when I used it, I was told that Aceh already existed as a user name. As I approach my 79th birthday I dont have time for all this, so I've returned to the original password and miraculousy appear to have got through!
Ok,back to Mary Hale and her parentage:
I have found on FreeREG, a bride named Sarah Susanna Williams, who might have been Mary's mother, in a marriage on 15 August 1835 at Brighton, therefore close to Mary's birth in 1838, but the groom was recorded as Frank Francis (which in itself is strange) and when i checked to see if he had died and left Sarah Susanna a widow in time for her to remarry to a Mr Hale and be the mother of Mary, alas no such death or burial found.
I also looked on FreeREG for a suitable marriage of a Joseph [John?] Hale, but all that came up were marriages by Joseph Howell to Ann Leticia Terry and Joseph Hoole to Ann Beggis.
What we have are 2 official legal documents of record:
1. the Birth Certificate of Mary Hale stating that her father was Joseph Hale, Shoemaker and his mother was Susan Hale formerly Williams (5 May 1838 at Brighton).
2. the Marriage Certificate of Mary Hale to Alfred Cullmer in which the bride's father was stated as John Hale, Shoemaker. (23 September 1857 at Finsbury, London).
My jottings from back in 2002 show a number of Hale families in Brighton and London (several found to be duplicates) and it has been suggested that this group was so close that Mary may have been passed to and living with, families other than her own for duties such as child care, domestic help, etc. At the time I could make nothing of this as connection between these Hale families could not be established.
Another thought has come to mind. Were the clergy in the mid 1800s still using Day Books to scribble down the details of BMDs as they happened and get these records transferred to the Registers later? Were Bishops transcripts still being used to confirm or correct the Register entries?
Back in the 1600s I have found evidence of a screw up between Day Book scribbles and Register, not being picked up by the BTs. I have seen the state of some of these Day Books! I wonder whether this is again the problem?
-
These may be the sons' birth registrations and my guess is that there is no father named on either.
HALE, WILLIAM -
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 231
HALE, THOMAS -
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 228
Mary naming her father as John instead of Joseph is probably because she had no memory of him.
Debra :)
-
Deleted - Sorry, posted about a Joseph Hale occ Baker, forgot he was a Shoemaker
-
Hello Rosie,
Once again I can make no progress on Mary Hale's parentage, without it being 100% proven I cannot develop the line back. So, for the umteenth time I'm dropping her and returning to the pre 1538s.
Thanks for your help.
-
Hopefully something will crop up as more goes online.
Rosie :)
-
Another baptism at St Bartholomew By the Exchange!
21 June 1857. Born 28th May 1857
Henry
Parents Joseph + Sarah Hale
Abode 78 Milton Street
Father a Shoemaker
Birth registration
HALE, HENRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in EAST LONDON Volume 01C Page 40
An outside possibility in the same district as the three boys :-\
Birth
HALE, FRANCES
Mother's Maiden Surname: WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1843 S Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 212
Death
HALE, FRANCES
Age at Death (in years): 0
GRO Reference: 1844 J Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 16
Don't forget you can now get instant digital images from the GRO of any of the registrations (births / deaths) mentioned in the thread for just £2.50!
-
A couple of marriages :)
11 February 1872, St. John the Evangelist, Lambeth
Thomas Hale, 20, Bachelor, Printer, father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker
+
Jane Eliza Ward, 18, Spinster, father John Ward, Packing-case maker
Residence for both Waterloo Rd.
Witnesses John Ward, Elizabeth Shelford
22 August 1886, St. John the Baptist, Hoxton
William Hale, 39, Bachelor, Printsellers assistant, residence 53 Buttesland St, father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker
+
Grace Mary France, 29, Spinster, residence St Botolph Bishopsgate, No father named
Witnessed by William Baker, Alice Baker
Thomas and Jane seem to be in Islington in 1881. He has a different occupation.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-N6S1
William and Grace are in Bethnal Green in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:316S-QMM
-
Also this birth?
HALE, EDWARD
Mother's Maiden Surname: WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in EAST LONDON Volume 01C Page 23
Is this them in 1881 in St Giles Cripplegate?
Susan Hale, 67, William Hale, 34, Edward Hale, 21
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27S-7WKP
I haven't checked this out at all.
-
Ancestry suggest Susan Heale, 46, and family in St Giles Cripplegate in 1861
-
Can't find them on FS in 1861
Here they are in Cripplegate in 1871
Susan Hale 57
Thomas Hale 17
Henry Hale 13
Edward Hale 11
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBDT-91S
Hales on ancestry
-
Re Hales in Brighton in 1838
My 2 x great-great grandmother, Mary was, according to her birth certificate, born on 5 May 1838 at 12, Riding School Lane, Brighton, Sussex. Father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker; Mother Susan Hale formerly Williams.
Well we have a very interesting triple baptism in Brighton, 29 July 1838, not long after Mary was born.
John Williams
Sarah
Mary
Parents Williams + Mary Hale
Abode Boss's Gardens
Father a Shoemaker
Image on FamilySearch (free, you need to be registered and signed in)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XHTS-M65
The register does say Williams, rather than William, for father's name.
Interesting answer to a query about Boss's Gardens here
https://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/topic/boss39s-gardens
It was right by the Riding School (owned by George Boss) and the aforementioned Riding Horse Lane, where Mary was born.
-
Images of the 1841 census for Brighton on FamilySearch
Piece 1121 Book 1 Folio 32
Riding School Lane (spelt Rideing here)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-13GL-NY12
There are three occupied houses on the page (22) starting with Thomas Wight, 45, and family
Seem to be six houses marked up as unoccupied.
On the next page (23), there is just one more house in RSL.
Then straight on to Boss Gardens (should be Boss's)
Here on the the next image on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-B3GL-NTDH
That's 10 houses in Riding Horse Lane. Not twelve plus!
The man himself, George Boss, is a few images on (second bottom of page 33) in Edward Street
George Boss, 62, Riding Master
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHK-M3GL-JH7
-
So we now have much more information about Susan / Sarah from the census
1861
8 Brackley Street, St Giles Cripplegate
Susan Heale Head Widow 46 Shoe Closer, born St Clements
William Heale Son 12 Errand Boy
Tomas (sic) Heale Son 9
Henry Heale Son 3
Edward Heale Son 1
The boys all born London Cripplegate
The other main pay website has mucked them up completely, which means they appear as McDonalds on FamilySearch! Tomas misread as James, and they transcribed Henry as Francis!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-9T91
-
1871
7 Hanover Court, Cripplegate
Susan Hale Head Widow 57 Needle woman, born Middlesex St Clements Danes
Thomas Hale Son 17 Machine Boy
Henry Hale Son 13 Scholar
Edward Hale Son 11 Scholar
The boys all born Middlesex Cripplegate
1881
At 3 Ropemaker Street, Cripplegate.
Susan Hale Head Widow 67 Pickett St Strand City (City has been crossed out)
With her are sons Wiliam, 34, and Edward, 21
-
Mary was married on 23 December 1857 at St Paul's Finsbury, Middlesex, to Alfred Cullmer of the Royal London Militia.
Mary has been found in the 1851 Census she is recorded, aged 13 and born in Brighton, as the daughter of Sarah Hale, widow, Shoe Closer, born: "n K".
Mary appears again, in the 1881 Census, as married to Alfred Cullmer with her place of birth confirmed as Brighton.
Mary has been recorded as Coleman in the 1871 census
111 Curtain Road, Shoreditch
Mary Coleman Head Widow 34 Bag handle Maker
Alfred Coleman Son 12 Scholar
Rose Coleman Daur 13 Scholar
All born Middlesex Shoreditch
In 1881 Mary Culmer says she is married, but is on her own. She is 42, Bag Handle Maker, born Sussex Brighton
There are workhouse admissions for Mary and her children in Holborn and Shoreditch, 1868-1872
-
I'm dropping her and returning to the pre 1538s.
Do come back, Aceh. It's easier to make progress in the 19th century then that far back!
The birth was registered by Joseph Hale, father
So he obviously existed.
Funnily enough, since Susan (aka Sarah) says she was born in St Clement Danes, there is a Joseph Hale there in the 1841 census! Age 35, Shoemaker, born in the county.
Perhaps they weren't together when the census was taken.
Re a death.
We know the Hales were in the East London registration district.
If we take Frances Hale, mother Williams, 1843-1844, as one of theirs, then there is a change when William's birth was registered in 1846.
These may be the sons' birth registrations and my guess is that there is no father named on either.
HALE, WILLIAM -
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 231
HALE, THOMAS -
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 228
Mary naming her father as John instead of Joseph is probably because she had no memory of him
Of course the Williams maiden name is back later on the births of Henry and Edward, but that just means that mum gave fuller information about herself. There may be no father named on the certificates. Joseph being named on the baptisms of the boys may have been done for propriety's sake (of course she may have fibbed on those last two certificates as well!)
So if Joseph had died before 1846, rather than just disappeared, there is this possibility in the quarter following the one for Frances
HALE, JOSEPH
Age at Death (in years): 42
GRO Reference: 1844 S Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 167
-
What does Aceh think now? Has any progress made on this problem?
-
Well done John, lots to read there and take in :). Hopefully Aceh will come back to this soon with their thoughts.
Rosie
-
Thanks, Rosie. Yes, a lot to take in. And still a long way to go!
John
-
Rosie & Jonw,
Apologies for not getting back to you sooner; i had not anticipated your getting the bit between the teeth on my behalf, for which I thank you. Although I have been retired for almost 20 years my life has a full agenda of which genealogy is but one of the many different balls I try to keep in the air at any one time.
I find the 3 sequential baptisms in Brighton very interesting, they are only yet another Hale family but they may represent a centre of shoemaking folk in that part of Brighton, so a check of the names and occupations of others in the same immediate area in the 1841 census may uncover some more. I've just checked my record but the only Hale I have in 1841 is John Hale, warehouseman, born within the county & wife Elizabeth straw bonnet maker, at 5, King Street Shoreditch. I don't have anything in Brighton.
OK, it's nearly 9 o clock so I'm off to bed. I will study your other finds tomorrow after my medical appointment.
Many thanks again.
-
Now back on seat.
I can trace the life of Mary Cullmer (formally Hale) from her marriage to the infamous Alfred Cullmer, to her death in 1916, but, as far as I can see, there was no conection to the Hale family or to shoemaking. Alfred Cullmer (aka "Old George" to his criminal associates) left the Militia and became a travelling bag maker (at least on the surface, that was his occupation) and Mary became a bag handle maker. Around 1860 it became obvious to Mary that her other half had developed a taste for 15 year old girls, so she exited stage left with her daughter Rosina aged 3 and her son Alfred aged 1 and thereafter lived in lodgings. If you want the full story on Alfred, there was a scavenger hunt run by Toni* in the Common Room a few years ago now - it lasted several years but I assume it has now been closed.
As I said, my aim is to confirm the parentage of Mary Hale so that I can explore her ancestry and to that end I have been looking at Brighton,where I have come across the following:
Baptisms:
Mary Hale 29 July 1838 Brighton, father Williams Hale, mother Mary @ Parish church of St Nicholas
Sarah Hale 29 July 1838 Brighton, father Williams Hale, mother Mary @ Parish Church of St Nicholas
They were not twins. We already have a birth for Mary Hale in Brighton on 5 May 1838
A birth hunt for Sarah in Brighton came up with 'not found'. I have found a birth for a Sarah Hale: 1837 Bethnal Green Vol 2, Page 6 MMN Pritchard. This suggests that the MMN for both should be Pitchard dosent it or am I going mad????
-
I have rechecked again on FindmyPast the double baptism at St Nicholas, Brighton that is recorded as having taken place on 29 July 1838 and I confirm that the records state:
Sarah Hale, Father Williams Hale, Mother Mary -
Mary Hale, Father Williams Hale, Mother Mary -
Sarah appears to have been born in Bethnal Green the previous year and, if this is the correct birth, then her mother's maiden name was Prichard and therefore Mary's also.
This appears to be the same event as Jon's triple baptism quoted in his post of 9 April as it's on the same day and appears to be in the same place. So what is going on?
One other thing- from Free Reg, between 1800 & 1838 the only Joseph Hale born in Brighton was of the same generation as Mary herself. So if Mary's father, as per her birth certificate, is correct, then he was born elsewhere, probably London.
And yet another thing - Mary's birth certificate was sent to me in September 2002 by the Sussex Record Office and the covering note with it stated that it was the only birth of a Mary Hale they had in their records. or words to that effect. I have hunted for this note but I haven't found it among my Culmer papers.
-
Rosie / Jon
I have now checked the baptism at Brighton on 29 July of a Mary Hale,with FreeREG and the answer agrees with that of FindMyPast as follows:
Father: Forename William; Surname Hale
Mother: Forename Mary. Surname - not given
So it appears that there were 2 Mary Hales baptised in Brighton, both having a connection with Boss Gardens / Riding School Lane. The other Mary Hale being with Father Joseph Hale and mother Susan Hale, formerly Williams, as per Birth Certificate.
Jon, going back to the Baptism register that you attached to an earlier post. I took a screen shot and blew it up a bit, I now see your 3rd baptism, that of John William, son of William & Mary Hale. Curate Woodwood was obviously doing a job lot. I also looked back through the register to page 200 and there were no other Hale families recorded, so it was not a common name in Brighton.
Enough, I must hit the sack. My next move,i think, is to look for a marriage in Sussex & London of a Joseph Hale to a Susan Williams, in the years before the Birth Certificate.
-
Hi there
The infamous Alfred Cullmer sounds interesting! Certainly Mary was having a rough time later, with those workhouse admissions. Though the 4 March 1868 discharge from the Holborn workhouse says that Mary was taken out by Husband. Children Rosina and Alfred were with her.
I do think you have found the right Mary, her father's details on her marriage tally.
I believe it says Williams as father's name on those Hale Brighton baptisms in 1838. Which is curious, as it is said to be Sarah/Susan's maiden name. But I can't find any BTs of baptisms in Brighton for 1838 for comparison.
As a family, even with William as father, there is not really any further sign.
What we do know is that Susan and the children ended up later in the City of London. But were they there with Joseph as early as 1843?
Jon
-
Evening Jon,
Thanks very much for the Workhouse discharge info; it is indeed very interesting that husband Alfred Cullmer arranged for Mary, Rosina aged 10 and Alfred aged 8 to be released. Up to now I had no knowledge of there being a period(s) in the workhouse, but it does not surprise me. In 1868, Alfred had been shacked up with Ellen Elizabeth Wheeler (16 years old at the beginning - her father was dead and her mother acquiesced) since early 1862 and by 1868 Ellen Elizabeth had a young son George. I suspect that Mary would have been required to name her husband and the area where he was last known to have been living, in order to have been accepted into the workhouse. He was presumably able to provide minimal assistance from the proceeds of a recent "job" (arson & insurance fraud).
When you say Mary's father's details tally do you mean the workhouse records on him tally? because the marriage certificate clearly name's Mary's father as "John Hale, shoemaker".
If you want to know more about
-
Morning Jon,
Sorry about the abrupt ending of my post last night; it was interupted by an incoming Skype call from my sister in Tasmania which lasted quite a while.
If you want to know more about infamous Alfred Cullmer here are the links:
1. Trial at the old Bailey 10 June 1861: abduction of 15 year old Emily Blackshaw without consent of her father (Emily was, after all, her father's property therefore it was akin to a theft!).
2. Although Alfred had died on 23 July 1888, the police & insurance companies had by 1890 eventually joined up the dots and arrested Alfred Jnr and the rest of the gang...except for Ellen Elizabeth Wheeler, Alfred's partner & mother of his 3 sons, who escaped up the gangplank of a ship down in the docks and was never seen or heard of again.
Appearances by the gang members, including Ellen Elizabeth's aged mother, initially before magistrates, but ultimately at the Old Bailey in February & March 1891, were covered daily in the world's press (via the newfangled undersea cable) in which the late Alfred was declared "The Fire King of London" and Ellen Elizabeth the "Fire Queen".
Ok, back to Mary, Alfred's lawful widow & relict, and her children. Surprisingly Alfred was a witness at the marriage of his daughter Rosina to Isaac William Osborn at St Leonard Shoreditch on 15 November 1879 (Q4 1879, Shoreditch, Vol 1c, Page327). Mary was recorded as being present at Alfred's death from tuberculosis in Hoxton on 23 July 1888 (Q3 1888, Shoreditch, Vol 1c, page 51). Mary's son Alfred Jnr married Eleanor Sampson, again in Shoreditch, and was last found in Melbourne, Australia in 1893. Mary died in Islington a short distance from her daughter Rosina, on 28 december 1916. (Q4 1916, Islington, Vol 1b, page 422).
-
Hi
I haven't been able to find out much more.
Alfred and Mary seem to have had another son, George, registered as Cullmer, March qtr 1862, Shoreditch.
Death registered in the Dec qtr of the same year, age 0, also in Shoreditch.
George was buried at Victoria Park Cemetery, 13 Dec 1862. Age 12 months.
Curiously the address given is Long Alley, Bishopsgate.
-
Young George died after 5 days of Pneumonia at 5, Ruddocks Buildings Shoreditch. Ruddocks Buildings featutred strongly in a survey report on very poor housing conditions by a Doctor (his name escapes me) with the description of cramped damp conditions, etc. I do know of Long Alley, one of many off of Bishopsgate; my Riley ancestors lived in Rose Alley around 1800.
I have looked for a marriage for Susan Williams to Joseph Hale with zero result. Realisticly I dont have enough certainty of Mary Hale's paranrage to go off at half cock with a balance of probability. If it could be proved tha Susan was Susan Sarah or vice-versa and Joseph was Joseph John or vice-versa, perhaps .... but I've been wasting my time up too many blind alleys (one was for well over 2 years until the link person was, with the issue of new data, recorded to have died at the age of 15 months !).
I hope you have found my 2x Great Grandfather Alfred of interest. He represents (as far as I am aware) the lowest of my ancesters. My 14x Great Grandfather , Richard Culmer, yeoman, of St Peters in Thanet (later named Broadstairs), Kent, who was buried beneath the chancel of the parish church before the altar in November 1485, was the highest. From his will I can say that he was born at least in or before 1430, and very likely, many years before that.
Thanks again for your help and Rosie99 also.