RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: kathyc on Thursday 18 January 24 23:13 GMT (UK)
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My great great grandparents had a croft by Knockando called Croftindaker. Does anyone from the area know what the local pronuncation of Croftindaker would be? I'm reasonably sure how we've always said it talking about it here in Canada is probably not right. Thank you!
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There's a video to help actors speak with a Scottish accent. the "r" in any word is important so it should assist you with how your ancestors soke.
https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/how-to-do-a-scottish-accent-75895/
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There is no such thing as a single Scottish accent. That web site might be useful if you were auditioning for a part as a Glaswegian, but it's useless as a guide to pronunciation in the rest of Scotland. Just reading through some of it made me cringe, even without watching the videos (which for some reason decline to play on my PC). I have never, ever, heard anyone use any of those supposedly 'popular' phrases other than ironically, and even then only very seldom.
Nor have I ever heard anyone actually speak about Croftindaker (have to admit I've never actually heard of it at all, and it doesn't seem to be listed on the Scotland's Places web site or on LIBINDX), so I can't be sure about it. I would expect to pronounce it croft-n-DAY-kr but be prepared to be corrected.
BTW I live about 20 minutes' drive from Knockando.
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Link attached to a publication about Croftindaker.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Croftindaker-Heritage-Story-Thomsons-Knockando/dp/B08P3VZGK7
Like Forfarian I live quite close (about 20 miles) from Knockando and one of my sons taught at the school there until last year. I’ll ask him for his thoughts and report back.
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Couldn’t resist sharing part of the script from ‘The Blood Donor’ where Hancock uses what he thinks is colloquial Scottish with a splendid response by Doctor McTaggart..
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Nor have I ever heard anyone actually speak about Croftindaker (have to admit I've never actually heard of it at all, and it doesn't seem to be listed on the Scotland's Places web site or on LIBINDX), so I can't be sure about it. I would expect to pronounce it croft-n-DAY-kr but be prepared to be corrected.
BTW I live about 20 minutes' drive from Knockando.
Thank you. That's about how we've been pronouncing it, too.
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Link attached to a publication about Croftindaker.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Croftindaker-Heritage-Story-Thomsons-Knockando/dp/B08P3VZGK7
Like Forfarian I live quite close (about 20 miles) from Knockando and one of my sons taught at the school there until last year. I’ll ask him for his thoughts and report back.
Thanks. That book is a collaboration of many of my cousins, primarily the late Roger Keight, with the torch picked up by Jason Nitz, to assemble the family history of the Thomsons of Croftindaker. :)
And thanks very much for asking your son. I appreciate it.
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There's a video to help actors speak with a Scottish accent. the "r" in any word is important so it should assist you with how your ancestors soke.
https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/how-to-do-a-scottish-accent-75895/
Thanks. Accent isn't the issue (and as someone else noted, there's SUCH a wide variation in regional Scots and Scots-accented English), but I'm wanting to know whether it's read as written and, if so, whether it's a long A and if that syllable is stressed, etc.
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BTW I live about 20 minutes' drive from Knockando.
Since you live close, I thought you might be interested in the attached map, from a document compiled by my cousin using a scan of a paper map, so I have no idea of the copyright of it, unfortunately.
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I've found Croftindacker on a map surveyed in 1870.
However the same spot is clearly marked on a map surveyed in 1926-1927 and on later maps as Croftintaggart.
See attachment and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1537, which shows where the ruins are and even has a photograph.
I would put the stress on the first a, making it Croft-n-TAG-rt, but am willing to be corrected. It would sound very odd if any other syllable were to be stressed.
The practical difficulty is that since that second map was surveyed in 1926-1927 the croft, whatever its name, has been swallowed up in a forest plantation. So it may not be easy to find someone who remembers hearing it spoken of.
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I've found Croftindacker on a map surveyed in 1870.
However the same spot is clearly marked on a map surveyed in 1926-1927 and on later maps as Croftintaggart.
See attachment and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1537, which shows where the ruins are and even has a photograph.
I would put the stress on the first a, making it Croft-n-TAG-rt, but am willing to be corrected. It would sound very odd if any other syllable were to be stressed.
The practical difficulty is that since that second map was surveyed in 1926-1927 the croft, whatever its name, has been swallowed up in a forest plantation. So it may not be easy to find someone who remembers hearing it spoken of.
Thanks very much for this. I so appreciate the links and time you've put into helping me. Your pronunciation suggestion makes sense to me, especially given the most common ways the name is represented on census records where it would have been written down presumably as the enumerator heard it, which is Croftindaker or Croftindacker in every census from 1861. Whether it was a D or a T would be very difficult to tell in that sequence of letters.
Thanks again for your help.
Kathy
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I’ve also been puzzling over the evidence with Croftintaggart shown on maps yet ‘Croftindaker’ on the 1861 Census, extract attached, and presumably other sources.
I was having similar thoughts to Forfarian on whether Croftindaker could be derived from Croftintaggart or vice versa.
Wondering if a Gaelic speaker could comment on whether it is feasible both names written in English could be from the same Gaelic root?
Agree with Forfarian that it may be extremely difficult to find someone locally who remembers hearing the name as the Croft is now ruinous, and in woodland but will still run it past my son.
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I’ve also been puzzling over the evidence with Croftintaggart shown on maps yet ‘Croftindaker’ on the 1861 Census, extract attached, and presumably other sources.
Yes, the statutory records I have for people who lived at that croft also typically say Croftindacker or Croftindaker.
I think the Croftintaggart/daker difference is simply one of lack of spelling consistency. To my ear they sound quite similar when said aloud. But like you, I do wonder about the origin of the name.
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I had a thought and looked up "sagart" in a Gaelic dictionary. It means 'priest' so presumably derives from Latin 'sacerdos'.
In Gaelic 'an' often (not always!) takes the place of English 'of'. But it then requires a modification to the following word. In particular the initial 's' becomes silent, and this requires the insertion of a sort of dummy letter 't' to make it pronounceable. It also requires the insertion of an 'i' after the second 'a'.
Doing this results in Croft-an-t-sagairt, which would mean 'priest's croft' and would be pronounced Croft'nTAGgart. It's not hard to imagine that an enumerator with no Gaelic might misinterpret that as Croft'nDACKer.
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Forfarian’s post has jogged my memory, I completely forgot to ask my son who used to teach at the school in Knockando to see if there could be any local knowledge.
In a nice coincidence, we actually arranged yesterday to visit the Knockando Woolmill next weekend with the grandchildren and I will make sure I ask him!
https://www.kwc.co.uk/
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Thanks very much Forfarian and Calleva. There seems to be a general consensus about the pronunciation, which is very helpful, as are the possible origins.
Cheers!
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I live in Knockando near to Blacksboat and a few days ago found the Croftindaker book. I'd been struggling to find it on maps so am delighted to find it marked on the snippet here! Many thanks.
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Beautiful place to live! Glad the map is helpful.