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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: jlbriggs on Wednesday 17 January 24 16:27 GMT (UK)
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=879465.new;topicseen#new
I posted above in Manchester forum and got lots of great help and now my search has moved to Scotland and this same person CLARENCE STEPHEN(S) is really causing me problems so reaching out for help
So its been established that Clarence Dalgetty Stephens b1867 and Fanny Henfrey had an illegitimate son (clarence Dalgetty Stephens in 1895 who died same year)
Clarence was also in prison in 1894 in Glasgow and I have found him in 1894-95 in Aberdeen (wellington Terrace) as a traveller so all good.
I can not find any entries for him prior to that date but I have found a "charles" D Stephen (says born Aberdeen on the 1891 census) married to Maggie C with a son Victor CD Stephen b1890
Ive traced Victors war records and see he is Victor Dalgetty Stephen and also in 1915 WW1 records states both his parents Margaret & Charles are deceased) but can not find a death for Charles only Maggie
I think this is Maggie C S Stephen Stephen
Death Date: 19 Jun 1898
Cemetery: Arbroath Eastern Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Arbroath, Angus, Scotland
Has Bio?: N
Victor also a boarder in 1901 living in Aberdeen (says born in Edinburgh) So Charles is definitely Charles Dalgetty Stephens and the ONLY Dalgetty stephens b1865. I thought perhaps he was his brother but checking back to 1881
Charles Stephen 41 Head
Elizabeth Stephen 40 Wife
Charles Stephen 16 Son
Jemima V Stephen 13 Daughter
James V Stephen 11 Son
John S V Stephen 7 Son
James Holland 21 Lodger
Thomas Holland 20 Lodger
But can not find any Clarence who if he is a brother would be 13-14
Also cant find any other trace Pre 1894 nor can I find any trace of Charles post 1891 so wondering if they are the same person as Clarence (and Fanny on the link) have changed their names several times and in 1903 clarence newsarticle said he has an alias of John watson.
Looks like Fanny came back from india in 1886 with her parents and had a baby with clarence in 1895 then Fanny pops up in Manchester in 1901 (has more children with him as father) so Im trying to find any connection to rule in or out that charles and Clarence are (or not) the same person, maybe he ran off with Fanny and changed his name to his dead sons name?
thanks
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Looking at Scotland's People I note the following:
There is a death record for Margaret Cant S Stephen in Arbroath in 1898 which would appear to be a match with the cemetery record quoted but the age is 0 years.
A birth for Victor Charles Stephen in Newington RD Edinburgh in 1889. Mother's maiden name is showing as Patson but wonder if this is an incorrect transcription of Polson ( see below).
There is a marriage of a Charles Dalgety Stephen and a Maggie Cooper Stephen in Aberdeen Old Machar in 1886.
There is a death for a Margaret Cooper Stephen ( other surname Polson) age 46 in 1913 in St Nicholas, Aberdeen.
William
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The Scottish Indexes website has a Prison Register Index. There is an entry for Clarence Dalgetty Stephen in 1894. This gives his age as 27 and place of birth as Dundee.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/prisontranscript.aspx?prisonid=490900339
William
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Good Afternoon
Could this be him 1901?
Lambeth 147 Stamford St near Waterloo Road
Clarence D Stephen married 34 boarder ?ting contractor (it's over written with Book and a big cross) employer Scotland .
And a possible death 1909
Clarence Stephens June 1909 Chorlton age 42 with a burial at the Southern Cemetery 5.4.1909.
Ciderdrinker
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WoW
Just found this
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3629416/3629418/6/%22clarence%20stephens%22
Rhyl Journal 28 Sep 1907
Clarence Stephens called Succi the Fasting man and wife Frances sued by Frank Eich .They are performing at the Worlds Fair.She has a permanent address in Manchester. Professional name for her Lady Melodee.He was previously an Advertising Contractor.
Very wierd Act,but it looks like them.
Ciderdrinker
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hi - Yes on the link right at the top of my the opening post these were mentioned as the fasting act and in Lambeth in 1901 - They must be the same people as theres another article about Lady melodee being daughter of an army officer in India (she was born in india to an army officer) Did a little research on the "succi" act and apparently there was a few of them in US and UK all doing the same thing - Yes quite weird but it was interesting. He was also in trouble in 1903 and jailed a month so these 2 are a right pair
I have the 1909 death as a possibility but my main issue is that my grandad was down in 1912 (with Clarence as his father) and his sister in 1916 so either they were to a different man and she just kept putting Clarence down as the father or its not him. She is recorded as a widow in 1911 census so something isnt right and maybe Ill never know.
I do have him traced now as definitely Clarence Dalgetty Stephen back to 1893 and a Charles Dalgettly before 1891 Cant find them together (or charles after 1891) which is why Im thinking they are the same person as hes changed his name. Dalgetty Stephen is so unsual for them both to be born in scotland and in Aberdeen area around 1891-94 and not be related (or same person)
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Yes
Looking at it,it does seem Clarence Dalgetty and Charles Dalgetty Stephens are the same man.
But how can he be having children after his death ? If the 1911 census is right ,then either there was some kind of insurance fraud which seems unlikely or as you say there must be another man.
And the fact she has several children would seem to me to suggest they all had the same father and there was a long term relationship .
Ciderdrinker
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thats my quandry, either she lied about being widowed or lied about him being the father. ???
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on my fathers school records in 1918 next of kin is "harry" so maybe he got a new name avoiding the law 😄🤔
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I have just reread my previous post and realised that I should have written that there is a marriage in Aberdeen Old Machar in 1886 between Charles Dalgety Stephen and Maggie Cooper Polson. I do think that it would be worth looking at this marriage cert.
William
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Yes i was looking at that at it adds up as found a maggie & charles on the 1891 with a son (victor) who i followed and is victor dalgetty stephen on his war records (and a boarder in 1901 aged 11) seems to be a death of a Maggie C Stephen (thought C for cooper maybe) in 1898 which would account for victor being on his own as a boarder in 1901 but i see theres a margaret polson on a 1901 census in aberdeen as a servant on her own so not sure which is correct one.
If Charles is clarence then hes in prison in 1894 then off with fanny thereafter, leaving victor with maggie. I looked for any records of maggie on the electoral registers on her own but nothing either its as if he vanished in 1891 and clarence "appears" in 1894.
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Please see my earlier post. The Margaret C Stephen who died in 1898 was an infant. The Margaret Polson who married Charles Dalgety Stephen died in 1913.
William
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sorry william for misreading, thats definitely clarified that. Strange how shes taken her maiden name back (which i doubt a wife would do if husband died) but on the 1901 census i can only see a transcript (no image attached) theres a margaret stephen and a margaret polson recorded as 2 people.
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The 1901 census seems to have Margaret recorded as Margaret Polson or Stephen and a widow. ( This may, of course, be a fictional widowhood!).
This appears to be her death notice in the Aberdeen Daily Journal 7 March. 1913.
"Stephen - At the Royal Infirmary, Aberdeen, on 6th March, Margaret Cooper Stephen, eldest daughter of the late Alexander Polson, dancing master, aged 46 years.".
Interesting to note that her age is incorrect ( this can. of course, depend on the knowledge of the informant) as other evidence gives her birth year as 1861!
William
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Strange how shes taken her maiden name back (which i doubt a wife would do if husband died)
That's not uncommon in Scotland - women aren't required to give up their maiden names on marriage, so you often see widows using their maiden names after their husbands die. You'll also see married women referred to as 'Firstname MaidenName or MarriedName' on most legal records in Scotland.
Ruth
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I followed charles dalgetty (clarence?) stephen siblings and found James V & John SV in london 1901, same as my clarence stephens 2miles apart, another similarity.
My charles is with maggie(wife) and son victor in 1891 but cant find any 1891 census for parents charles & Elizabeth or sibling in 1891. Elizabeth died in 1885 so wondering where they all went, staying in scotland or london.
My clarence dalgetty stephen is in prison 1894 then appears in london 1903 while fanny (florence) stephens is in manchester.
Also wonder why dalgetty? the other siblings have valentine as the middle name (mum is elizabeth valentine)
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electoral register entry
Charles Dalgetty Stephen
Residence Date 1890-1891
Address 4 Belhaven Terrace, Edinburgh
Occupation Secretary
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How have you concluded that his parents are Charles Stephen & Elizabeth Valentine. Their Charles was b 1864 and in Aberdeen, not Dundee as per his prison record
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1881 census hes born aberdeen.
Yes the prison record says dundee, which is a ?? but hes named as clarence too so think hes taken on a new identity.
my charles dalgetty stephens is born in aberdeen (followed victor to establish that connection as hes victor dalgetty stephen) but clarence dalgetty as u say states dundee on prison records but im sceptical as couldnt find any other "dalgetty stephens" other than charles
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I can see that's a possibility for your Charles, but do you have any direct evidence that it is him? There's also Charles Stephen b 11 Aug 1868 to George Stephen and Elizabeth (nee McWilliam) in the Aberdeen area. I can't see him after 1881.
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I have just reread my previous post and realised that I should have written that there is a marriage in Aberdeen Old Machar in 1886 between Charles Dalgety Stephen and Maggie Cooper Polson. I do think that it would be worth looking at this marriage cert.
William
Im trying to find this online on Ancestry, FindMyPast and Scottish people and cant, can you point me to where you found this so I can look at ordering the marr cert? thanks
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The attachment is a screenshot from the marriage index at Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (not 'Scottish people').
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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thanks