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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: overlandermatt on Friday 12 January 24 16:45 GMT (UK)
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I have an interest in some family members over 3 generations that served in the Royal Marines from the 1830s to 1930s in Plymouth.
I recently came across the photo below from 1895 showing the Plymouth Division formed up in Devonport. I wonder what the background is to this and probably have a load of questions relating to this era. My great grandfather would have been a sergeant at that time and I wonder if he would have been present that day.
Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject or could direct me to another resource?
Thanks in advance,
Matt
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Here are some links about the Royal Marines base for you to look at. Thye might give you ideas for other searching.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehouse_Barracks
https://www.plymouth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/EasternKingsRedoubtBoundaryInformation.pdf
https://www.olddevonport.uk/Royal%20Navy%20in%20Old%20Devonport-Royal%20Naval%20Barracks-HMS%20Vivid-Drill%20Shed.htm
Re this last one I wonder if this was taken after the extension in 1907. To me it looks at bit like the background in your photograph.
My suggestion is that you ask the wonders/wonderful photograph restorers on the Rootschat Photographic Restorers board to work their magic as there seems to be a bit of detail in the background that might be useful.
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Thanks Shanreagh.
Interesting links there. Do have a Plymouth interest? I have an awful lot of Plymouth-based history to research and am interested to find some local resources if you know of any.
I was lucky enough to have a short tour around the barracks recently. That's where the 1895 photo was sourced and we were able to discover a few more connections with the ancestors being investigated.
Thanks again.
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I am researching a relative who enlisted in the RMLI Plymouth Division in 1897 and served in the Second Boer War, but can't find any record of his service after enlistment. Sorry to butt in on this thread but I wonder if you have found any useful sources?
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Hi PAK.
No worries joining the thread!
A name and maybe a bit more information could be helpful as there will be lots of people reading this who know where to look.
I have always found the attestation packs to be really helpful when researching my RM ancestors.
You might also find he has a service record - which is a one page document summarising his time in the marines. I forget when these documents started.
The link below takes you to the National Archives for the attestation packs. Enter a name and date range then you will hopefully identify your man. You have to pay to get the records - there's a initial search and the if they find anything you pay for copying. There's quite a lot of detail - we'll worth checking out.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1866
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Hi Matt
An initial quick thanks. I will follow the link that you sent to me and reply again if anything comes to light.
The person concerned was born Ralph Edward Kent and baptised as such on 26.10.79 at Keele, Staffordshire. However, he enlisted on 6.2.97 as "Ralph Edward Douglas Dawson Kent" and although he dropped the "Douglas" later, was known and recorded for the rest of his life as Ralph Edward Dawson-Kent (sometimes hyphenated, sometimes not). There are several other questions about his subsequent colourful life but I will probably start a new topic for them, rather than clutter up yours.
Best wishes and thanks again
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Re Ralph Edward Douglas Dawson Kent - do you have this record?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7782751
It looks like he was discharged from the RMLI in 1898 for misconduct.
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I can't help, but my great-great-grandfather was also here at that time ;D
1882-1916- he served in the Sudan conflict. I found his service records in the National Archives- before that I had no idea he ever left the UK!
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Thanks for further replies, and apologies for my late response.
Yes I have seen the military record showing that he deserted and was then dismissed for gross misconduct in May 1898.
But the next few years are mysterious. Despite his apparent dismissal, his obituary claims that he served in the South African War, his children are said to have been born in 1900 and 1903 but the locations are unknown, and he is shown on regimental pay lists based in Kingston, Ontario between 1905 and 1908.
On 26.3.08 Ralph Edward Dawson Kent is shown as the sole passenger (recorded as “soldier”) aboard a cargo ship bound for Montevideo from Barry in South Wales. to Montevideo. But also in 1908 (exact date not shown) the London Gazette shows him (as Captain R E D Kent) resigning from the 2nd Cadet Battalion, Queens Royal West Surrey Regt. One would assume that was after the trip to South America. But then he was married in Santiago, Chile in 1911.
I'm curious about these timings, but my main concern is to try to find birth records or his son and daughter - showing location, and mother.
Complicated, isn't it. But that's why I turned to Rootschat!
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Hi Pak,
I'm not sure how much else you've already discovered about RED Kent so apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know. Obviously if you have his obituary you know he died on 27 May 1918 while commanding the 4th battalion of Alexandra (Princess of Wales's Own) Yorkshire Regiment aka The Green Howards. He had only been promoted to the rank of acting Lt Col on 25 Apr 1918 from the temporary rank of captain.
Prior to that he had been with the training Reserve. However the Green Howards was not the unit he first went into action with during WW1. It appears that, following his brief stint with the 2nd Cadet Battalion of The Royal West Surrey Regiment (circa 1906 -1908) he was commissioned into the Manchester Regiment as temporary Lt on 10 Sept 1914 and promoted temporary Captain on 13 Oct 1914. He went to France with that Regiment on 15 July 1915 and earned the 1914-15 Star. It was presumably while he was serving with the Manchester Regt that he he was mentioned in dispatches in June 1916 (LG 15 Jun 1916 page 5948). By 22 Feb 1917 he was with the Green Howards. Interestingly he is recorded on the South Africa Roll of Honour, implying that he was living there prior to the start of the war. He was posthumously awarded the British Victory Medal and the War Medal. He was also awarded the Croix de Guerre (LG Supplement 7 Jan 1919 page 313).
I further assume that you know that his parents were Daniel Kent (b.1851) a house painter living at Workhouse Lane, Keele, Staffordshire (1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses) with wife Lucy Elizabeth nee Borrington (b 1850), along with two sisters and a brother. His parents placed an in memoriam notice in the Staffordshire Sentinel on the first anniversary of his death.
You also obviously know that his wife was Alice (maiden name not known) born 8 Feb 1872 who was living as a widow on a war pension at 23 Lauriston Road, Brighton in September 1939 and who died in the first quarter of 1951 in Brighton. At the time of RED's death the family were at Oak Dene, Ferndown, and remained there at least until 1921 according to the electoral registers.
Vivian Carlyle Dawson Kent (born 24 May 1900) first appeared in the ER for 1919 as an absentee voter. He is shown as being a Lieutenant in the RAF, serving with the Royal Naval Air Service and ADC to the GOC Malta. That is quite an achievement for a 19 year old. In the Spring 1920 electoral register for Ferndown, Hampshire he is shown along with his mother, but does not appear in the subsequent ERs there. At the same time (10 Jan 1920) the London Gazette reports that 2Lt VCH Dawson Kent had been placed on the unposted list. It is not clear how long he remained in the RAF. Much later during WW2 he is serving in the Army, but without checking the Army Lists for the details, I haven't got his full Army career. Suffice it to say he is named in a 1941 London Gazette entry, and by August 1942 he's a temporary captain in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps.
Anyway, back in September 1939 he was a commercial traveller dealing in toys and household goods, living at 16 South Mead, Manchester with his wife May Eileen Marie (born 03 July 1903) nee Watson. They married in the first quarter of 1927 in the Wirral and went on to have two children, Maureen born 1928 Manchester South and Valerie born 1930 Stratford on Avon. Neither child was with their parents in September 1939. In 1931 the family are living at Crandean, Maidenhead Road, Warwick. There is a 1936 Manchester rate book entry for the family at 34 South Drive, Manchester, where the name was been added after the previous occupier's name was crossed out, implying that the family had arrived during that year. As you are probably aware Vivian Carlyle died at Bucklow, Cheshire in 1972 and his widow May in December 1986 at Watford. Both of Vivian's daughters later married but I won't give their married names here as it is possible both are still alive. Intriguingly there was a female Dawson Kent born in 2003 in Hampshire with the mother's maiden name Dawson - possibly part of the same family I wonder?
As for RED's daughter, Doreen Joyce I have only found a few details. She was born on 7 November 1904. She was eligible for a small war pension of £24 pa due to her father's death in service until she reached the age of 21. In September 1939 she was working as a governess in the home of a retired Army Major (ex Sussex Regt) in Chichester and single. In fact she remained single until her death in November 1984 in Brighton. Did she perhaps have a connection to Brighton through her mother's residence there?
It might be worth contacting the Green Howards Museum (https://greenhowards.org.uk/) on the off chance that they have any details about RED's death. The war diary is available at TNA but I haven't attempted to access it.
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Hi Andy J2022 - thank you very much for the time you have obviously spent on looking at this topic. Whilst much of it is already on my own notes, there are a number of very useful extra bits of information which I will incorporate. If you would like me to forward my own notes to you, just let me know.
You might find this useful - https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/260250-accessing-stand-to-from-wfa-website/.
Te main mystery concerns the mother of Vivian and Doreen because. whilst they were born in 1900 and 1903, Ralph did not marry Alice until 25/9/11 in Chile. She had emigrated there in 1896 with her first husband, who died there in 1910.
If you have a copy of the in memoriam notice in the Sentinel I would love to see it, not least because I know from a summary that it refers to his service in the South African War - yet the records show that he deserted between January and May 1898, when he was discharged for misconduct.
But then there is a significant gap. I haven't been able to find a record of a marriage, or a birth record showing the location and name of his children's mother. The next record I have of him is in 1905 thru to 1908 on the pay lists for regimental staff of the 14th Regiment of Infantry (Princess of Wales’ Own Rifles), based in Kingston, Ontario.
I did notice the Dawson-Kent in Hampshire, and already the names of Vivian's daughters (both have died) - plus some grandchildren. However, I haven't been able to find or make contact with any descendants, which is a shame as I think they would be interested, and might be able to help clear up this mystery!
Thanks again for your help - much appreciated.
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Hi Pak,
Thanks for the link to the GWF and the StandTo article. I assume that the attack at Fricourt on 1 July 1916 was the cause of his MID.
Unfortunately the Staffordshire Sentinel in memoriam notice is very brief, and indeed is somewhat cutoff due to being on the edge of the page where the newspaper runs into the binding it is in. See below.
And thanks for the offer of a copy of your notes. I don't think I need them as my only purpose was to act as a second pair of eyes to look at the problem of identifying the wife and details about the children's parentage where, as you can see, I haven't added anything at all.
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Here is that obituary
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/f08c4a3f-795f-4985-8a90-d6d98eb7e3ab
Confusingly it says he joined the RMLI in 1905.
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Similar obit in the Army & Navy Gazette
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/39240b86-4465-4473-8ee4-ba9ae5b593db
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Here is that obituary
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/f08c4a3f-795f-4985-8a90-d6d98eb7e3ab
This article at least explains why he was recorded on the South Africa Roll of Honour.