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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: bugbear on Friday 12 January 24 14:28 GMT (UK)
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On twitter, an account that normally posts (lovely) photographs from silent-era Hollywood published a photo of an English Actress - Julia James.
It also stated that "little is known of her" beyond b1890 d1964, and on stage 1905-1920.
"little is known" is a challenge.
A delve into the BNA revealed that in 1921 she Married Maurice Dollfus, a wealthy banker from France. FreeBMD confirmed the marriage.
Another article reported that in 1909 she (and her mother) was robbed of £1,500 in jewelry, (£147,000 in current terms). More importantly, the article gave an address; 52, Bloomsbury St.
Optimistically, I used FindMyPast to do an address search, and got a hit! Since I don't have a current FindMyPast sub, I got the Census from Ances*y.
This listed a mother, a brother and a sister, as well as Julia Herself.
I can find no other UK records for any of the 4. I strongly suspect a name change.
Can anyone do better? To provide motivation, I attach her portrait, from 1912 (she was 20).
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Oh I do like a mystery.
It looks like Julia ,Elizabeth and Maurice are both at boarding school in Margate 1901.
Godwin Cottage 31 Goodwin Road all born Bloomsbury
Ciderdrinker
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from The Sketch, August 4th 1926
Another villa resident [in Le Touquet] is Mme. Maurice Dollfus, whom we remember as the beautiful Julia James. She plays a great deal of golf, and entertains largely. Her son, Patrick Dollfus, who is nearly two, thrives apace in the stimulating air.
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from The Worthing Herald, Friday November 6th, 1959
Wedding gown for his model
Leading French fashion designer Pierre Balmain has offered to make a wedding gown for his top model, 19-year-old Patricia Donald Smith of Angmering, when she marries next year.
Pat...will marry another "Pat" – Parisian industrialist M. Patrick Dollfus – in London next March.
...
This weekend Pat's parents...will meet M. and Mme. Maurice Dollfus at their Parisian home.
...
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Since ciderdrinker's discovery confirms that James is the real surname (since it predates Julia's fame), I looked in the London Electoral register for Annie.
And hit pay dirt.
In 1908 she is at 52 Bloomsbury Street, confirming her identity, but 70 Great Russell Street is also listed under "houses successive"
Turning to the 1901 Electoral Reg, there she is, at least at 71 Great Russell Street.
In 1900 she's listed at 71 Great Russell Street, and (another "successive") 22 Torrington Square.
This should find her in the 1901 census.
Yep - Class: RG13; Piece: 237; Folio: 35; Page: 19
Running another boarding house, and already a widow at 31.
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The report on her wedding in the Hull Daily Mail, Wednesday 2nd November 1921 states that her address at the time was in "Hertford-street, Mayfair" and that the marriage certificate described her father as John James, deceased, of private means.
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The report on her wedding in the Hull Daily Mail, Wednesday 2nd November 1921 states that her address at the time was in "Hertford-street, Mayfair" and that the marriage certificate described her father as John James, deceased, of private means.
So with Maurice born in 1893 and Annie a Widow in 1901, we have a narrow window for the death of a wealthy "John James".
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A little portrait from the Abergavenny Chronicle in 1918
Few young actresses have advanced so rapidly as Miss Julia James, for the simple reason that her natural gifts as an actress found early recognition (says a contemporary). She played the part of principal girl in a Drury Lane pantomime before she was twenty-one. Apart, however, from her stage work, Miss James is clever in other directions, and some of her paintings would secure an honoured place in any exhibition. She has a rare knowledge, too, of old prints and china of which she is an enthusiastic collector, while it is scarcely surprising, in view of the fact that she speaks five languages fluently, that, she is an ardent traveller.
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I can't find obvious births for Elizabeth, Julia and Maurice - at least not with the surname James
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There's a few Ellis Island records for Julia (sometimes with her husband) travelling from France to the US. By 1923 she's lost a few years - says she's aged 19
- and that age sticks through into later records
Added: Later records have her b c1892, and looking at the image of 1923 she's listed as age 30, so it's a dodgy transcrption that made her 19, but 30 is still younger than the age of Julia James on the censuses
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Just for interest. Four Portraits of Julia James from 1916-17:
www.delaszlocatalogueraisonne.com/catalogue/the-catalogue/james-julia-mrs-maurice-dollfus-verso-112271/search/composition:portrait-study-portrait
www.delaszlocatalogueraisonne.com/catalogue/the-catalogue/james-julia-mrs-maurice-dollfus-5817/search/keywords:julia--sorting:relevance
www.delaszlocatalogueraisonne.com/catalogue/the-catalogue/james-julia-mrs-maurice-dollfus-2952/search/keywords:julia--sorting:relevance
www.delaszlocatalogueraisonne.com/catalogue/the-catalogue/james-julia-mrs-maurice-dollfus-5821/search/keywords:julia--sorting:relevance
Monica
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Some background on Maurice Dullfus here:
www.wikidata.fr-fr.nina.az/Maurice_Dollfus.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Dollfus
Monica
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I was trying to find Julia or family members on 1921, and FindMyPast (to which I don;t subscribe) suggested an article from the Tatler. I've searched their archives on BNA, and the free search throws up a number of article snippets which suggest Julia was American born.
That doesn't fit the censuses found
Nor indeed does it really fit the Ellis Island records where she's described as British born and a French citizen (due to her marriage - indeed the earliest record has British crossed out and French written in for her citizenship)
She also is described as having Titian hair
She was performing in franch language plays in London and appeared on the Paris stage too
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https://www.caronia2.info/plf490519.php
Page 7 column 2 3rd para down
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I can't find obvious births for Elizabeth, Julia and Maurice - at least not with the surname James
yes - Maurice is quite a rare forename, but I can't find a birth record
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I can't find obvious births for Elizabeth, Julia and Maurice - at least not with the surname James
yes - Maurice is quite a rare forename, but I can't find a birth record
Which suggests that perhaps James isn't the birth surname, or indeed as per the news items about Julia they all weren't born in the UK
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Annie James, mother, gives her birth place in 1921 as 'Grove Road, Victoria Pk, London'. Also showing as aged 55 years and 9 months at the time of the census on 19 June 1921.
Monica
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When Annie died, Julia is mentioned on her probate record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:W764-B4W2
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/39011/page/4513/data.pdf
Her address was 36 Sillwood-Road Brighton
(the other name is a solicitor)
It would probably be worth getting a copy of the will. Perhaps the other children are listed.
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Have you noticed on the 1911 census - mother Annie has put "not yet" under Infirmity, and Birth Place for Maurice is "in bed" - both crossed out. ;D
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Tatler 1937
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When Annie died, Julia is mentioned on her probate record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:W764-B4W2
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/39011/page/4513/data.pdf
Her address was 36 Sillwood-Road Brighton
(the other name is a solicitor)
It would probably be worth getting a copy of the will. Perhaps the other children are listed.
Following up the Brighton location, I found her 1939 register entry
Her birth is stated as 5 oct 1864, "Independent mean" (obviously ;) ), with one Anthony Tooth, born 1859 living with her. The address is 127, Lansdowne Place, Hove.
Lots of other retired/own means residence nearby. It's still there, a road lined on both sides with rather fabulous looking flats.
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Anthony Tooth died 1943 and probate was to Annie James, widow.
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This is just a shot in the dark – via a connection through the name Julia – but as a candidate for Annie James, there is an Annie IVIN birth registered Q4 1864 Marylebone, mmn HOPE.
In the 1871 census there is a family in Bethnal Green with an Annie IVIN of the correct age with a mother and a younger sister both named Julia. The mother has Darlington, Durham as her birthplace. In 1881 the family is now living in Darlington, Julia (mother) is a widow, and a son Richardson HOPE aged 22 has appeared (see mmn above).
I haven't found Annie Ivin again after the 1881 census.
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from The Worthing Herald, Friday November 6th, 1959
Wedding gown for his model
Leading French fashion designer Pierre Balmain has offered to make a wedding gown for his top model, 19-year-old Patricia Donald Smith of Angmering, when she marries next year.
Pat...will marry another "Pat" – Parisian industrialist M. Patrick Dollfus – in London next March.
...
This weekend Pat's parents...will meet M. and Mme. Maurice Dollfus at their Parisian home.
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Oops - the wedding didn't happen;
Daily Mirror, Thursday 03 June 1965
... Balmain model Patricia Donald-Smith. Anti after yesterday's Derby Day wedding at St. Margaret's Church, Westminster, she is Baroness Selsdon of Croydon. Patricia-24 and sft. 9in. tall married the 27-year-old baron two years after a love at first sight meeting ...
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Hi
Anyone else wondering about Annie's lodger in 1911?
Lance/Lancelot Crossland born 1871 Bradford ,a wool buyer.
He's still at that address in 1921 with a new housekeeper.
Seems a bit odd or is that a red herring?
He dies in 1923 and is buried back in Yorkshire in a family plot.
Just a thought
Ciderdrinker
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https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person?LinkID=mp54003&displayStyle=thumb&wPage=0
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I was trying to find Julia or family members on 1921, and FindMyPast (to which I don;t subscribe) suggested an article from the Tatler. I've searched their archives on BNA, and the free search throws up a number of article snippets which suggest Julia was American born.
It's very odd. They've been writing of her since 1909, but the first mention of American birth is 1915
" TO-NIGHT'S THE NIGHT 2ini wlrnielh tlhSs SttsnF Eg SlbiiniEinigo MISS JULIA JAMES Who is an American by birth, has spent nearly all her stage life in this country. At the Gaiety Theatre she soon made herself a popular favourite, her lovely Titian hair ..."
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Might be of interest to fill a gap:
20 March 1919
Travelled 1st class London to Marseille on board the P&O Nankin
Miss Julia James, Actress, aged 27
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The earliest record I have for Annie James is 1899, when the Electoral register has her at 22 Torrington Square.
I've checked, and the occupant in the 1891 census is one John Sharp, Toilet Soap Manufacturer from Stoke on Trent (with 2 servants for a household of two)
He was the occupant until 1897, according to the Electoral Register.
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Is there any reason why this couldn't be Julia's birth?
Births Mar 1890 (>99%)
JAMES Julia St. Giles 1b 613 -- GRO gives MMN as Stevens.
I can't see Elizabeth or Maurice in the St Giles district.
Neither can I see a James/Stevens marriage.
Regarding possible name changes, I have come across several Maurice/Morris who have been Jewish by birth.
ETA: Rats, this is probably a good reason why it's not likely to be Julia:
Deaths Mar 1890 (>99%)
James Julia 0 St. Giles 1b 459
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I've put most of the findings of my research and this thread onto my public tree on Anc*str for those that have access.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/168274439/person/172547445328/facts
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Have been looking at a family for ages tonight feeling sure I am wrong but here we go..
I looked for a Julia and Annie and came up with the Joseph(s)family 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3T7V-66Z
Looking at the children on this census, Julia and Louis birth as Cannonbury, Elizabeth Aldgate, I think MMN is Levy which could be the marriage of JJ to Hannah Levy Q1 1886 London City
Joseph occ butcher
JJ is still in Middlesex St. to 1892 (electoral reg.) and then JJ and Louis can be found in Liverpool 1901, occ butcher, married
RG13/3417/59/55
1911 JJ is an antiques dealer still with Louis and JJ still married
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWRT-YKX
Meanwhile in the electoral reg. an Annie Joseph(s) appears at 11 Bloomsbury Square from 1893 to 1897, can't find Annie Joseph(s) 1901 and wondered if she became Annie James.
Have absolutely no idea about Maurice but finding an Elizabeth in the household 1891 got me searching!
Just noting also that it looks like JJ died back in Middlesex 1924 from the probate calendar ???
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I’ve been looking at them too. Especially as Canonbury was mentioned in another census.
There is this in the papers February 16 1893
But it still leaves the puzzle of money..
(And in 1911 you can see she wrote she had had 4 children, but then overwrote very blackly with 3. So that would account for Louis …perhaps)
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In 1911 she says Maurice was born in The City..
There is this birth
JOSEPH, MOSES LEVY
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 4
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This might be a cause of some confusion - Editors note at end
(The Stage 20th Jan 1966)
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This is the 1964 obit - could this be giving a false year of birth and death for the Julia James that is being looked for
The Stage 16th July 1964
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Re the Josephs family - the names, including mmn of Levy, of course, would suggest Jewish heritage.
If this is the correct family, imagine the dissembling necessary to end up married to a collaborationist in Vichy France.
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This is the 1964 obit - could this be giving a false year of birth and death for the Julia James that is being looked for
The Stage 16th July 1964
I'm getting confused, as the career described in the obit is definitely that of the "famous" Julia, judging by all the newspaper items I saw
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I think it’s that two people died. One in 1964 and one in 1966.
They thought the 1964 one was THE Julia James, but turned out it wasn’t, and the real JJ died in 1966 and they just repeated the same obit.
But we need the French experts to look in Paris perhaps, because surely as Mme Dullfos she might merit a mention.
(Did you slide over that first clipping to see the second column with the editors note?)
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Yes, but i'd read it as saying the 1964 obit set out the career details of the the less famous Julia as an obit for the famous one, not vice versa!
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The 1964 obit gives her age as 74. This would make the dates 1890 and 1964. The 1966 obit does not give an age. Was Nadia Eley 74, but Julia James was not? And if not what year should her birth be?
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I see nothing in the confusing obituaries to make me doubt the clear evidence of the 1901 and 1911 censuses - whilst a London actress might be able to create "stories for the press" about things, I don't think a 10 year old schoolgirl has the same motives or opportunities.
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https://www.caronia2.info/plf490519.php
Page 7 column 2 3rd para down
Hi Carole
I am trying to find similar info to that in your link for the sailing RMS Carmina that called ar Nassau in
December 1967. I wonder if you or anybody else can help me?
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I can't find her death in Paris proper. Her son died in 1968 in Suresnes but his death was transcribed into 16e records. Possibly she, like him, died in one of the surrounding suburbs of greater Paris.
(source: https://archives.paris.fr/)
It looks like her son Paul (1929-2019) was Ben Paul Mathieu Dollfus (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CLY5-VFN2 ), born Neuilly-sur-Seine, although he went by Paul Dollfus.
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Looking at Paris cemeteries:
https://archives.paris.fr/r/216/cimetieres/
Lucie Dollfus nee Bloc, Maurice's mother, was buried at Passy Cemetery in 1919 and moved to Montparnasse (previous Le Cimetière du Sud) in 1920.
In what appears to be the same plot in Montparnasse were buried son Patrick and husband Maurice in 1968 and 1972 - Maurice's record states that he died in New York.
No Julia though which is unfortunate as I hoped her death record might confirm her birthday (even if the year is off) and would be interesting to see how her parents' names are given.
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If we think Annie James was Annie Josephs then something happened quickly in 1893.
Newspaper report says in January she was living at Aldgate High Street and she was admitted to Whitechapel Workhouse on 16th January.
Yet Annie James is on the electoral role from 1893 to 1897 at 11 Bloomsbury Square.
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If we think Annie James was Annie Josephs then something happened quickly in 1893.
Newspaper report says in January she was living at Aldgate High Street and she was admitted to Whitechapel Workhouse on 16th January.
Yet Annie James is on the electoral role from 1893 to 1897 at 11 Bloomsbury Square.
Is she? I can only see Annie Joseph at that address
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Have been looking at a family for ages tonight feeling sure I am wrong but here we go..
I looked for a Julia and Annie and came up with the Joseph(s)family 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3T7V-66Z
Looking at the children on this census, Julia and Louis birth as Cannonbury, Elizabeth Aldgate, I think MMN is Levy which could be the marriage of JJ to Hannah Levy Q1 1886 London City
Joseph occ butcher
JJ is still in Middlesex St. to 1892 (electoral reg.) and then JJ and Louis can be found in Liverpool 1901, occ butcher, married
RG13/3417/59/55
1911 JJ is an antiques dealer still with Louis and JJ still married
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWRT-YKX
Meanwhile in the electoral reg. an Annie Joseph(s) appears at 11 Bloomsbury Square from 1893 to 1897, can't find Annie Joseph(s) 1901 and wondered if she became Annie James.
Have absolutely no idea about Maurice but finding an Elizabeth in the household 1891 got me searching!
Just noting also that it looks like JJ died back in Middlesex 1924 from the probate calendar ???
Yes I took it from this post and although she is still using the name Joseph surely in 1893 she would have had to be the owner of Bloomsbury Sq. to be able to vote and from being admitted to the workhouse to owning a property in a few months ( correct me if I am wrong )
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It was just that you said she was Annie James at 11 Bloomsbury Square, so I was hoping you had found a double entry of some sort.
But yes. I agree. Someone would have had to swoop in with a lot of money.
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I can't find her death in Paris proper. Her son died in 1968 in Suresnes but his death was transcribed into 16e records. Possibly she, like him, died in one of the surrounding suburbs of greater Paris.
(source: https://archives.paris.fr/)
It looks like her son Paul (1929-2019) was Ben Paul Mathieu Dollfus (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CLY5-VFN2 ), born Neuilly-sur-Seine, although he went by Paul Dollfus.
Yes , the couple had 2 boys ( Patrick and Paul );
Here you have an article about the Dollfus family , a wealthy protestant alsacian family, I made a snippet about Maurice and his son Paul:
https://www.sim.asso.fr/famille-dollfus/
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and here you have Maurice's birth
https://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMjQtMDEtMTUiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NDtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MjM4NDIyO3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_move=207%2C-121&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=90&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F :
page 13 , under the name Bloc
his mother was Lucie Bloc (or Bloch), she was an " artiste lyrique" ,Paul Dollfus attended the birth (or probably was in the next room).
Paul and Lucie married later ( 20 july 1900 11ème arrondissement of Paris , both recognized the child.
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Here is Paul's obituary , the ceremony took place in St Jean, protestant temple of Mulhouse, and an article about him:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41393-019-0339-4
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And here is his death on matchid with all his names
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Before coming back in Mulhouse he was a doctor in the UK ( Stoke Mandeville).
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Here is Maurice's father 's( Paul Mathieu Dollfus) death :
https://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMjEtMDQtMjkiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NDtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MjYzMjA2O3M6MTY6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWwiO2I6MTtzOjIxOiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sX21vZGUiO3M6NDoicHJvZCI7fQ==#uielem_move=-1168%2C-439&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=133&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 29
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and here a death faire part for Paul Mathieu
https://www.geneanet.org/registres/view/181267/120?individu_filter=5954662
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Jumping a little...
Did we discuss this possible birth for Elizabeth, sister to Julia?
Births 3rd Qrt 1890
Elizabeth James
St. Giles
1b/ 625
Can't see this entry on the GRO unfortunately to try to confirm mother's maiden name.
Monica
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Can't see this entry on the GRO unfortunately to try to confirm mother's maiden name.
Indexed as male rather than female:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
JAMES, ELIZABETH SMITH
GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 625
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Looking back at the 1911 census where we first see Annie and her 3 children together she says she is 39 years old Julia is 22 Elizabeth is 20 and Maurice is 19.
I suspect she was a stranger to the truth at times but if those ages are correct she was having children quickly at a young age.
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Right 1891 census living at Middlesex Street Aldgate.
Joseph Josephs age 30 Butcher b. Whitechapel
Annna . . . 24 b. Aldgate
Louis . . . 4 b. Canonbury
Julia . . . 3 b. Canonbury
Elizabeth . . . 1 b . Aldgate
So unless there are 2 families with children in the same order and names and dates of birth this has got to be the correct family
So at some point Joseph decamps to Liverpool taking Louis with him before 1901 and reinvents himself as an Antique Dealer.
In the same house in 1891 is John Joseph age 59 a Dealer with wife and adult children Joseph's father?
Gives a clue that Joseph would have been used to dealing with second hand goods ( antiques )
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I can find adverts. as early as 1903 in Liverpool newspapers J Joseph wants to buy secondhand furniture etc. etc. giving an address as 36 Brownlow Hill Liverpool so he was there by then.
Edit Joseph was still calling himself a butcher in 1901 so gives a time line to when he changed career.
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By 1915 L Joseph & Co are auctioneers, so Louis on his way.
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The adverts in Liverpool papers for Louis Joseph, auctioneer and valuer, run from March 1914 to July 1915.
Added: and it isn’t that the relevant newspaper coverage at BNA stops then; I’ve made that mistake before!
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This is possibly Louis's son.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/151179128/simon-leslie-joseph
If you look at USA / UK passenger lists Louis and family travelled regularly 1st. class between Boston /New York and England and it appears Louis settled in the USA.
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There was a newspaper report of an Annie (I can’t remember which surname at the mo) pawning a pair of diamond earrings she said were hers. They held her in jail while they waited for them to be reported stolen, but they weren’t.
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I know all this info has already been found and posted in previous posts, but it took me some time to find the relevant post again so to try to help, I have tried to do a round up of the putative Joseph/Levy family, thus:
Marriages Mar 1886 (>99%)
Joseph Joseph London C 1c 137
LEVY Hannah London City 1c 137
Births which then tie in:
JOSEPH, LEWIS LEVY
GRO Reference: 1886 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 417
JOSEPH, JULIA LEVY
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 426
JOSEPH, ELIZABETH LEVY
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 4
JOSEPH, MOSES LEVY
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 4
Another one, prob/poss not relevant because of course there was already a Lewis?
JOSEPH, LOUIS JOSEPH LEVY
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 184 (died the same quarter)
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There was a newspaper report of an Annie (I can’t remember which surname at the mo) pawning a pair of diamond earrings she said were hers. They held her in jail while they waited for them to be reported stolen, but they weren’t.
I've just seen that. It was in March 1898, the name Annie Josephs, age 30, occ waistcoat maker. I can't see that an address was given for her but the area was Hoxton.
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Deleted, double up, sorry
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I know all this info has already been found and posted in previous posts, but it took me some time to find the relevant post again so to try to help, I have tried to do a round up of the putative Joseph/Levy family, thus:
Marriages Mar 1886 (>99%)
Joseph Joseph London C 1c 137
LEVY Hannah London City 1c 137
Births which then tie in:
JOSEPH, LEWIS LEVY
GRO Reference: 1886 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 417
JOSEPH, JULIA LEVY
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 426
JOSEPH, ELIZABETH LEVY
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 4
JOSEPH, MOSES LEVY
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 4
Another one, prob/poss not relevant because of course there was already a Lewis?
JOSEPH, LOUIS JOSEPH LEVY
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 184 (died the same quarter)
On Louis's gravestone his date of birth is given as 19/10/1886 so that ties up with Louis's birth reg.
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Have been looking at a family for ages tonight feeling sure I am wrong but here we go..
I looked for a Julia and Annie and came up with the Joseph(s)family 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3T7V-66Z
Looking at the children on this census, Julia and Louis birth as Cannonbury, Elizabeth Aldgate, I think MMN is Levy which could be the marriage of JJ to Hannah Levy Q1 1886 London City
Joseph occ butcher
JJ is still in Middlesex St. to 1892 (electoral reg.) and then JJ and Louis can be found in Liverpool 1901, occ butcher, married
RG13/3417/59/55
1911 JJ is an antiques dealer still with Louis and JJ still married
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWRT-YKX
Meanwhile in the electoral reg. an Annie Joseph(s) appears at 11 Bloomsbury Square from 1893 to 1897, can't find Annie Joseph(s) 1901 and wondered if she became Annie James.
Have absolutely no idea about Maurice but finding an Elizabeth in the household 1891 got me searching!
Just noting also that it looks like JJ died back in Middlesex 1924 from the probate calendar ???
In 1891, Joseph Josephs (30 b.c. 1861 Whitechapel) and family are at the same number, 39, Middlesex Street, Aldgate, as a John Joseph, 59 (b.c. 1832 Aldgate) dealer, and wife Rachael, 54 (b.c. 1837 Whitechapel) & family, who would be the right age to be Joseph's siblings, all born in Aldgate:
Emanuel Joseph, 32 (b.c. 1859), bookseller
Leah Joseph, 24 (b.c. 1867) dressmaker
Phoebe Joseph, 21 (b.c. 1870) dressmaker
Israel Joseph, 20 (b.c. 1871) paralysed
Anne Joseph, 18 (b.c. 1873) dressmaker
Solomon Joseph, 17 (b.c. 1874) bookseller
Sarah Joseph, 15 (b.c. 1876) dressmaker
Elizabeth Joseph, 14 (b.c. 1877) scholar
UPDATE: mother (presumably Rachael)'s maiden name appears to be Lazarus
JOSEPH, EMANUEL LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 360
JOSEPH, LEAH LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in EAST LONDON Volume 01C Page 1
JOSEPH, PHOEBE LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in EAST LONDON Volume 01C Page 9
JOSEPH, ISRAEL LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 8
JOSEPH, NANCY LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 8
JOSEPH, SOLOMON HENRY LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 7
JOSEPH, SARAH LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 1
JOSEPH, ELIZABETH LAZARUS
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 5
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Well this family is almost certainly Jewish. And as I said before, if this is Julia's family, it's ironic to say the least that she was married to a wealthy industrialist who seemed quite keen to play the Aryan game in Vichy France.
I suspect John James was a fictional (non-Jewish) father, conveniently dead by the time she started getting noticed.
This doesn't answer the question of where any money came from though. Could her mother maybe have inherited something? The Joseph Joseph/s in the newspaper report doesn't sound the sort to have given his abused wife a decent payout.
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Well this family is almost certainly Jewish. And as I said before, if this is Julia's family, it's ironic to say the least that she was married to a wealthy industrialist who seemed quite keen to play the Aryan game in Vichy France.
I suspect John James was a fictional (non-Jewish) father, conveniently dead by the time she started getting noticed.
This doesn't answer the question of where any money came from though. Could her mother maybe have inherited something? The Joseph Joseph/s in the newspaper report doesn't sound the sort to have given his abused wife a decent payout.
I had a look on Ancestry trees, and there are two that have information on Louis and his family in the States, but no further information going back on the parents. You would either need to get the marriage certificate and work from there, or try some of the indexes (now I think subscription only?) on Jewishgen that has a lot of synagogue marriages indexed.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/London_Jewish_Records
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/25140417/person/26083135050/facts
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/163807182/person/202129191847/facts
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Can anyone find these girls?
The only Levy Collett marriage I can see is of Mark & Mary in 1861 I can see them in 1871 with pre marriage children (second wife?) but Hannah in that family is already 16.
LEVY, HANNAH COLLETT
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 64
LEVY, RACHEL COLLETT
GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 67
LEVY, SARAH COLLETT
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in LONDON CITY Volume 01C Page 75
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Interesting reading one of the Ancestry trees has Louis's obit.
Mentions sister Mrs Elizabeth James.
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https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-boston-globe-obituary-for-louis-jose/41755338/
Louis's obit
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The obit says that his family had been dealing in antiques since 1702. Well Joseph Joseph was a butcher, so was there maybe a history of trading on his mother's side?
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Well John Joseph who we think was Joseph's father was a Dealer in1891.
I suspect 'Antique ' was an euphemism for second hand.
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I have a friend whose grandfather was a "trader in exotic imports" in London ---
he had a barrow selling fruit and veg! ::) ;D
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Well John Joseph who we think was Joseph's father was a Dealer in1891.
I suspect 'Antique ' was an euphemism for second hand.
I thought it was Joseph Josephs, who was a butcher?
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Well John Joseph who we think was Joseph's father was a Dealer in1891.
I suspect 'Antique ' was an euphemism for second hand.
Well I am not certain about that, as I can't find a Joseph with a mother Lazarus. Rachael appears on the 1861 census with her parents Israel & Anne Lazarus, daughter Fanny aged 4, and son Emanuel, 3, at 11, Boars' Head Yard, Middlesex Street, Whitechapel. Perhaps John Joseph was an uncle of Joseph Joseph(s) rather than father. If we can get the marriage it should clear things up. The story about antique dealing back to 1702 can probably be taken with a rather large pinch of salt ::) ;D
Lots more photos of Julia James on the National Portrait Gallery site
https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp54003/julia-james
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As there is a clear Jewish element to this story, has anyone considered checking the London Jewish records? A long time ago, I did some work on a Jewish family who arrived in the UK from Eastern Europe in the mid nineteenth century and there were all sorts of useful records which were maintained by synagogues to prove someone's Jewish heritage (which comes down the female line) which was (and possibly still is) very important to the Jewish faith.
Maybe someone with more experience on this subject could advise.
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I did have a very quick look at JewishGen and Synagogue Scribes a couple of days ago but didn't come up with anything. Will have another look.
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I don't think the Joseph(s) family were recent immigrants into London I suspect they had been there some time but once we get back before 1837 it will be Synagogue records needed.
Also it appears they were not on early census records, I don't know if this was a reluctance to appear on anything official.
We do probably need someone with Jewish experience.
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I did have a very quick look at JewishGen and Synagogue Scribes a couple of days ago but didn't come up with anything. Will have another look.
I had a look on the Knowles Collection, and there are a lot of Jewish genealogies on there, but not our particular couple, at least, not info on their marriage or children
https://www.familysearch.org/search/genealogies/results?count=20&q.subcollectionId=MMD6-PK1
I don't think the Joseph(s) family were recent immigrants into London I suspect they had been there some time but once we get back before 1837 it will be Synagogue records needed.
Also it appears they were not on early census records, I don't know if this was a reluctance to appear on anything official.
We do probably need someone with Jewish experience.
Well, I found Rachael, the possible aunt? of Joseph Joseph(s) on the 1861 census with her (Lazarus) parents, John Joseph was not there. I couldn't find them on the 1871 census which would be helpful in working out whether Joseph was their son or not.
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I think this could be Joseph as he has a sister Julia
1881 census
20, Wentworth Court, Spitalfields, London (Middlesex)
Nathan Joseph, 50 (b.c. 1831 Holland), cook, wife Isabella, 49 (b.c. 1832 London, nee Solomon(s))
children
Woolf, 15 (b.c. 1866 London) cabinet maker
Joseph, 17 (b.c. 1864 London) confectioner
Isaac, 13 (b.c. 1868 London)
Leah, 11 (b.c. 1870 London)
Julia, 7 (b.c. 1874 London)
and in 1871
6, Old Castle Street, Whitechapel
Nathan Joseph, 41 (b.c. 1830 Amsterdam, Holland), pastry cook, wife Isabella, 37 (b.c. 1834 Aldgate, Middlesex)
children
Henry, 14 (b.c. 1857 St. Mary le Grand (Strand?))
Sarah, 12 (b.c. 1859 Spitalfields), machinist
Aaron, 10 (b.c. 1861 St. Mary le Grand (Strand?)), scholar
Deborah, 9 (b.c. 1862 St. Mary le Grand (Strand?)), scholar
Joseph, 7 (b.c. 1864 St. Mary le Grand (Strand?)), scholar
Woolf, 5 (b.c. 1866 Mile End New Town), scholar
Isaac, 3 (b.c. 1868 St. Georges in the East), scholar
Leah, 1 (b.c. 1870 Whitechapel)
and sister in law Sophia Solomons, 22 (b.c. 1849 Spitalfields)
a servant Mary Ann Robinson, 18
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Scrap the above theory, Nathan a widower with his son Joseph in 1901, a confectioner married to Amelia ::).
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1881
There's a JJ at 18 Middlesex Street, butcher's shopman but c1855 born Whitechapel
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK6T-3K2Q
with the Weil family.
There's also a freemason record for a JJ butcher and he joins the Lodge of Joppa, address 10 Ferntower Road, Canonbury 20/12/1887
ADDED the freemason record is c1859
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That 1881 census looks promising. Interestingly there is a Rachel JOSEPH (49, niece, single) with the WEILs in 1901 and 1911 (has her age as unknown). Of course this could be just a coincidence - JOSEPH being a very common name.
I think Simon WEIL married Esther SIMMONS Jun qtr 1868 London City (1c/201). There are 2 Esther's on the page, however in 1901 there is a Rose SIMMONDS (sister in law) with the WEIL family. Can't see a birth for Simon's daughter Bertha unless it is this one in Dec qtr 1872 Marylebone (1a/482) mmn SALOMONS.
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I am trying to find what happened to everyone involved.
Joseph Joseph was back in London by 1921, a boarder Antique Dealer in Islington.
He died in 1924 in Islington. Admin. to Louis Joseph Antique Dealer estate £106.14s
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I see Annie was saying she was widowed in 1921, not quite. ???
Not miles away from Joseph Bloomsbury to Islington.
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I see Annie was saying she was widowed in 1921, not quite. ???
Not miles away from Joseph Bloomsbury to Islington.
Perhaps separated, not surprising perhaps given the newspaper article.
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We have had photos of Julia, this website shows paintings.
https://www.delaszlocatalogueraisonne.com/catalogue/the-catalogue/james-julia-mrs-maurice-dollfus-5821
Appear to have information from her wedding certificate to Maurice.
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Just looking at electoral roll, Annie stays at 52 Bloomsbury Street and when I got to 1931, Elizabeth James is with her. They are not at that address 1932.
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We know Annie had moved to the south coast by 1939. There is a possible on the Electoral Role in Worthing in 1933 / 1935
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Just looking at electoral roll, Annie stays at 52 Bloomsbury Street and when I got to 1931, Elizabeth James is with her. They are not at that address 1932.
Is this the London Electoral roll on Anc*stry?
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We have had photos of Julia, this website shows paintings.
https://www.delaszlocatalogueraisonne.com/catalogue/the-catalogue/james-julia-mrs-maurice-dollfus-5821
Appear to have information from her wedding certificate to Maurice.
Interesting to see she had flaming red hair :)! Re: her husband, is there any evidence he had pro Nazi views? He was the head of Ford in France, and it is true he was arrested when the war ended, but it seems most industrialists were. He was released shortly without charge, and was in fact given an award by the Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Dollfus
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I suspect Maurice knew Julia was Jewish and he kept his head down as much as possible during the war as he didn't want his wife to be exposed.
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I suspect Maurice knew Julia was Jewish and he kept his head down as much as possible during the war as he didn't want his wife to be exposed.
Given Julia had changed her name to conceal those origins (as it seems did some of her siblings), isn't it possible he didn't know?
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The article attached to the painting says that after the civil ceremony in London they had another wedding ceremony in France, a religious ceremony?
I don't know for sure but if it was a catholic ceremony wouldn't the church want to know what religion Julia was?
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***bugbear
Yes it was the electoral roll you mentioned
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I found this link:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/ford-and-fuhrer/
I have no idea if this is a reliable source or not though.
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I found this link:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/ford-and-fuhrer/
I have no idea if this is a reliable source or not though.
Well it looks well researched and it wouldn't surprise me if it was correct, I think especially before Pearl Harbor the USA wasn't on the side of the UK if the truth was known.
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The article attached to the painting says that after the civil ceremony in London they had another wedding ceremony in France, a religious ceremony?
I don't know for sure but if it was a catholic ceremony wouldn't the church want to know what religion Julia was?
Well I remind you that Maurice was a protestant ( see my preceding posts), if Julia was anything else than protestant , no way for a religious mariage in these days.
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The article attached to the painting says that after the civil ceremony in London they had another wedding ceremony in France, a religious ceremony?
I don't know for sure but if it was a catholic ceremony wouldn't the church want to know what religion Julia was?
Well yes, but if she had gone to the lengths of changing her name in an unofficial way to avoid anti-semitism (no deed poll etc.), I doubt she would suddenly admit to having been born into a Jewish family just because a priest asked her. Also she could have been baptised at some point publically or privately.
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Melba Don't forget Julia didn't change her surname just for a stage name her mother had changed her and her children's surname when Julia was a child.
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Melba ... said : to avoid anti-semitism ( no deed poll...) .
We are talking about England and France : full citizenship for the jews in France in 1791 and 1858 in England .
Moreover we are talking about a couple marrying in the twenties in England and maybe in the twenties ( or later ) in France . In those days , like nowadays ,the priest did not only ask if you were catholic , or the minister if you were a protestant ,before marrying a couple, they wanted a proof such as a baptism certificate.
Still , I agree that Julia might have converted .
Be careful and please do not guess too much about this story. This couple have descendants who may not appreciate you doing this . If anyone is really interested in it why not try to ask the descendants ?
At least one of them is publicly mentionned in the snippets I posted.
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Melba ... said : to avoid anti-semitism ( no deed poll...) .
We are talking about England and France : full citizenship for the jews in France in 1791 and 1858 in England .
Moreover we are talking about a couple marrying in the twenties in England and maybe in the twenties ( or later ) in France . In those days , like nowadays ,the priest did not only ask if you were catholic , or the minister if you were a protestant ,before marrying a couple, they wanted a proof such as a baptism certificate.
Still , I agree that Julia might have converted .
I am not sure if you are implying by Jews having full rights, there was no anti-semitism in either France or England? There are many instances of anti-semitism in both countries I can quote from the Dreyfus affair in the 1890s to the Battle of Cable Street in London in 1936. I have a lot of experience researching British Jewish families, and I can say well after 1858 Jews still changed their names (many such announcements in the London Gazette for example). As an actress, you would not only be up against the potential anti-semitism of your employers or colleagues, you would be up against that of your audience. I am sure in many cases Jewish actors and actresses were advised to change their names, indeed this happened in Hollywood right up to the 1960s. In this article in the New York Herald, 2nd November, 1921, it states 'a further ceremony under the French law will take place tomorrow in Paris..
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bd6t53111d/f1.item.r=(prOx:%20%22dollfus%22%2020%20%22julia%22).zoom
Le Gaulois, 4th November, states a religious marriage was performed at the Reformed Church on the 'Rue Cortambert' (Paris)
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5388674/f2.item.r=(prOx:%20%22dollfus%22%2020%20%22julia%22)
Be careful and please do not guess too much about this story. This couple have descendants who may not appreciate you doing this . If anyone is really interested in it why not try to ask the descendants ?
At least one of them is publicly mentionned in the snippets I posted.
I don't think that in today's France, discovering your grandmother or great grandmother had Jewish origins is going to be a particularly unusual or shocking thing.
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Great find in gallica!
I agree with you about what you said concerning antisemitism .
All I said was : in the twenties in France and England jews had the right to vote, and I thought you suggested they had not. And I still believe that guessing the motivations of a living person's grand-mother could hurt her ( particularly if you do not guess correctly).
Have a good day.
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Great find in gallica!
Thanks, there may well be many more references to Julia there, I was narrowing the search to their marriage year. I think this may be the church
https://www.annonciation.org/
I agree with you about what you said concerning antisemitism .
All I said was : in the twenties in France and England jews had the right to vote, and I thought you suggested they had not. And I still believe that guessing the motivations of a living person's grand-mother could hurt her ( particularly if you do not guess correctly).
Have a good day.
No, I didn't mention anything about voting (not sure anyone else did), only reference to electoral rolls that I can see. I really don't think, given the events of the 20th century, that anyone now would not understand why Jewish people sometimes hid their origins.
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Hi
Came across this thread as happened on the mystery Julia James via the de László archives.
I am not sure whether there has been some mixing up of families with the same name? It can be very common and confusing if you are certain you have the right person.
To start at the beginning. This JJ was supposedly born in London in 1890, right? That year tallying with her supposed death age.
There is only one Julia James born in London - on 2 Jan 1890 at 62 Marchmont Street, Bloomsbury. Father is Thomas Joseph James, a bookmaker. Mother is Mary James née Stevens.
Thoughts?
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Re last post.
Red Herring! :-[
That Julia James born in Jan 1890, died the same year.
Back to the drawing-board :-\