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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Lee Ross on Monday 08 January 24 04:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm trying to see if I can link a James Greenland that arrived in Hobart Town, Van Diemen's Land on 28th Nov 1842 on the 'Sir Charles Napier' to the James Greenland (c. 1825-1895) that married Bridget McNamara in Deniliquin, NSW on 26th Jan 1863 and died there on 5th April 1895 aged 70 years.
James Greenland is mentioned in the Deniliquin Gaol Description and Entrance Books in Dec 1881 (60yo) as having arrived on the 'Sir C Napier' in 1851. But I cannot seem to find a voyage of the 'Sir Charles Napier' arriving in Australia in 1851. I have a feeling the date is wrong in this record.
If these are all the same vessel I'm not sure if there was time for an England to Australia voyage:
- In late Jan 1851 the ship arrived in Mobile from Liverpool
- In Feb 1851 the ship was off Cape Horn
- In Jun 1851 the bark left Liverpool for Quebec
- In Nov 1851 the barque seems to be on a voyage from Santiago de Cuba to Swansea starting in Sep
I could also find arrivals for a 'Sir Charles Napier' in Apr 1855 in Geelong and also Feb 1858 in Port Phillip Bay but I couldn't find a James Greenland on the passenger lists.
So I'm thinking that possibly James arrived in Australia a lot earlier than he said he did.
On the 'Immigrants under the Bounty and General System List' from Feb 1843 it lists the immigrants who arrived in 1842 on the 'Sir Charles Napier'. James Greenland from Bradford, Wiltshire is on there with his wife. A bit more investigating and I believe his wife was Ruth Wilkins. This couple appears to have married on 11th Jul 1842 in Bradford-on-Avon shortly before the ship left London at the end of July for Hobart.
However a few things are making me doubt this could be the correct James Greenland:
- discrepancy in arrival dates 1842 vs. 1851
- The 1842 marriage certificate lists James' father as William Greenland, while the 1895 death certificate lists the father as James Greenland (his wife Bridget was the informant)
- The 1895 death certificate states that he was from Bristol with unknown years in the colony. Bristol and Bradford-on-Avon are fairly close though.
- The 1895 death certificate lists no other children/marriages before Bridget
According to the 1842 marriage certificate to Ruth Wilkins he would have been born around 1822, which does seem to make him roughly the right age.
No age, birthplace or parents are listed on the 1863 marriage certificate to Bridget McNamara.
His parents are listed as James Greenland and Jane Rochard on his 1895 death certificate (his wife Bridget was the informant).
I'm waiting on James and Bridget's children's birth certificates to see if they offer any further clues.
I cannot find what happened to James and Ruth Greenland after the birth of a still born daughter in Aug 1844 in Hobart. I haven't been able to find deaths for either in Tasmania, Victoria or NSW yet.
There is a James Greenland that left for Port Philip in Jul 1846 aboard the 'David' which might be him. Perhaps Ruth died in-between that time and he made his way to Deniliquin, or he might have left her and she might have remarried (James and Bridget were separated for a time in their marriage).
A slight complicating factor in the search is there is another convict James Greenland that arrived in Hobart on the 'Moffatt' in 1842 who seems to have ended up in the Liverpool Asylum for the Infirm and Destitute in in NSW by 1859.
If anyone could please help me find out what happened to James and Ruth Greenland, it would be great to rule them out as an option. But then I need to find another James Greenland on a ship called 'Sir Charles Napier'.
Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
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James Greenland is mentioned in the Deniliquin Gaol Description and Entrance Books in Dec 1881 (60yo) as having arrived on the 'Sir C Napier' in 1851. But I cannot seem to find a voyage of the 'Sir Charles Napier' arriving in Australia in 1851. I have a feeling the date is wrong in this record.
Possibly the source of the arrival date was himself.
As the record I have seen states he was gaoled for being of unsound mind, perhaps he was confused about dates and details.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
100% agree with that, he wasn't going through a good time, he was gaoled following a possible attempted suicide. I'm pretty sure the 1851 date he gave is incorrect, especially if the ship name is correct.
There's a few things that point towards the James Greenland on the 1842 voyage being the same man, but also things that don't fit. Hoping I can find his earlier life before Deniliquin somewhere.
Cheers
Lee
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His marriage certificate to Ruth Wilkins in 1842 states father "William Greenland" It would be odd for a person to give the wrong name I.e. James Greenland if they all, including the vicar, lived in the same village/town.
Information given on a death certificate is only as accurate as the informant knows. I would treat the information on his death cert with great caution.
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On the birth record for the un-named daughter in Hobart in 1844, James GREENLAND signs with "x". Does he sign on any of the other documents you have - marriage etc?
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On the birth record for the un-named daughter in Hobart in 1844, James GREENLAND signs with "x". Does he sign on any of the other documents you have - marriage etc?
Yes - both the 1842 marriage certificate and the 1863 marriage certificate are signed with an x
Interestingly on the Immigrants under the Bounty and General System List it looks like it says '2 Read & write'
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His marriage certificate to Ruth Wilkins in 1842 states father "William Greenland" It would be odd for a person to give the wrong name I.e. James Greenland if they all, including the vicar, lived in the same village/town.
Information given on a death certificate is only as accurate as the informant knows. I would treat the information on his death cert with great caution.
I agree with you on this, especially if possibly James wasn't truthful about his past before he got to Deniliquin, he might have changed some details about his life that he told Bridget. For example, if Ruth was still alive and maybe he had deserted her.
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Had you spotted the passage of a James Greenland from VDL to NSW?
TROVE newspapers
Colonial Times, 6 Jan 1857
Port of Hobart
Cleared out
5 Jan 1857 - Tasmania (s), 484 tons, Clinch, for Sydney
Amongst the passengers a "James Greenland"
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A James Greenland that married Bridget Gorman (Kiama 1864) a year after a James Greenland married Bridget McNamara (Deniliquin 1863) is another possible candidate for the 1842 arrival who possibly sailed for Sydney 1857?
Always something to muddy the waters!
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Yes you're right, I'll look into him again.
This James died in 1900 in Albion Park but doesn't appear to have any parents listed on his death record by looks of the NSW BDM.
But definitely someone to try to rule in/out as well if possible.
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Some Ancestry trees have him as being born 1816 in Somerset, England.
If this is him, it looks like he went from VIC to Tas in 1854 so likely this is him returning to Syd in 1857.
Name James Greenland
Age 38
Birth Year abt 1816
Departure Date Feb. 1854
Departure Place Victoria, Australia
Destination HOBART TOWN
Ship EUCALYPTUS
Ship's Master BLACKBOURN JOHN B
Page 3
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A James Greenland that married Bridget Gorman (Kiama 1864) a year after a James Greenland married Bridget McNamara (Deniliquin 1863) is another possible candidate for the 1842 arrival who possibly sailed for Sydney 1857?
Always something to muddy the waters!
The one that married in Kiama is the convict who arrived on the Moffat. His obit is fairly truthful, it is just the middle bit that is a bit fuzzy to cover the time he was in Tas. The Marquis of Normanby and the Earl of Mulgrave are the same person.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/132327564
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON14-1-17
images 200 and 201
Debra :)
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No age, birthplace or parents are listed on the 1863 marriage certificate to Bridget McNamara.
Reconciling the church records with the registry's records was never completed which is why some marriage certs are still missing information. Some of the Catholic church records have been filmed and deposited with the NSW State Library and NLA but searching their catalogues, they don't have the ones you need. Neither does the SOAG.
Having a Google it seems that someone found that the church records for the Wilcannia-Forbes Diocese, of which Deniliquin is a part, are kept at Broken Hill.
Scroll down for "Contact us", it would be worth a go.
https://www.wf.catholic.org.au/parishes-2/broken-hill/
Debra :)
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I'd checked out "Moffatt" Greenslade on FindMyPast - age given as 25 (born c. 1817) - occupation "wheelwright".
As you say, how he made it to Oz has been glossed over in the obit but the age does fit.
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No age, birthplace or parents are listed on the 1863 marriage certificate to Bridget McNamara.
Reconciling the church records with the registry's records was never completed which is why some marriage certs are still missing information. Some of the Catholic church records have been filmed and deposited with the NSW State Library and NLA but searching their catalogues, they don't have the ones you need. Neither does the SOAG.
Having a Google it seems that someone found that the church records for the Wilcannia-Forbes Diocese, of which Deniliquin is a part, are kept at Broken Hill.
Scroll down for "Contact us", it would be worth a go.
https://www.wf.catholic.org.au/parishes-2/broken-hill/
Debra :)
Hi Debra,
That is very interesting, I had just assumed it was simply missing the information from the beginning. I'm going to contact them as you suggested and see how I go, could be the missing link.
Thanks!
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Am not sure where this is going but the convict James Greenland is not your man. He was charged with rape in 1842, given life but served only 10 years, given a conditional pardon 4/10/1853 according to his convict record.
Interestingly a few years ago I was a researcher on a project Founders and Survivors in which we traced convicts after their sentence was served. My task was all the 369 men on the Moffat arr Nov 1842. I can't find the database online.. the website seems to have disappeared.
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Am not sure where this is going ...
Post #9 identified 2 x James Greenland who could be candidates for the James Greenland that sailed for Sydney 1857.
Post #11 identified the 1857 passenger as "Moffatt/Kiama" Greenland thus ruling out "Deniliquin" Greenland.
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I'm waiting on James and Bridget's children's birth certificates to see if they offer any further clues.
I think I got lucky, on one of James and Bridget's children's birth certificates it states James is from 'Bradford, Wilts, England'
I'm fairly certain now that this is the same man that arrived in Hobart on the 'Sir Charles Napier' in 1842.
I wonder what happened to his first wife Ruth, did she die in Tasmania? Did he leave her?
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Its great to have the correct James Greenland confirmed by a birth certificate of his child. I couldn't find any record of Ruth Greenland after the stillborn death of their child in Tasmania. If he travelled alone to Victoria? there doesn't seem to be any record of her in the Tasmanian indexes. Some of the early death records in Tas are incomplete.
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I agree with you Lee and shume.
Also, even though it is not a sound research pathway, ;D I do note that one of his daughters with Bridget was named Jane.
GREENLAND Jane
8117/1865
James & Bridget
At DENILIQUIN
We may take this as a tribute to his mother Jane as shown on earlier Wiltshire Records and matches with the mother's name on his DC. The surname ROCHARD is a bit of a puzzle, however.
Twenty years between his marriages is interesting.
Where was he ?
Where was Ruth?
??? ::)
Sue
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Thank you for this conversation about the James Greenland(s). They are ancestors of mine but I was always confused about who was who. I added them to my tree when starting my family tree on Ancestry as a beginner to all this hence made many mistakes and copied a few incorrect entries no doubt. I haven't been back to fix up this area yet but would love to.
Are you or anyone in this chat able to share with me their updated trees relating to this. I really need to sit down and work through this area of my Ancestry tree with all this new information.
Mine is titled "Greenland Family Tree". I look forward to hearing from anybody that can help get me back on track and headed in the right direction.