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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: M4CKA on Friday 05 January 24 22:24 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Hoping someone can be kind enough to help me transcribe this Italian Birth record, please.
Here is the link to the image on ancestry, an error keeps occurring every time I try and upload the image as an attachment :(
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1886/images/31053_A503951-00006?pId=269831
There are three different birth records on this page (Page 6) but the one I need to transcribe is the one on the bottom right of the right-hand page (Savino Giuseppe). Happily, there is a fair bit of info there so hope that's okay.
Thank You
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Hi,
I unfortunately do not have a world subscription on Ancestry, so cannot see the records.If you can have another go at uploading, I might be able to help (can't promise but can try)
pwhhh
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Can only find bmd entries up to 1865 in the Potenza State Archives for Marsicovetere:
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sxu/ (https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sxu/)
The link might be helpful if you are going further back.
Sorry too much to try and transcribe for a non Italian speaker
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The size of the file has to be no more than 500kbs otherwise it will not download. That could be the reason for the errors.
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Hello,
Hoping someone can be kind enough to help me transcribe this Italian Birth record, please.
Here is the link to the image on ancestry, an error keeps occurring every time I try and upload the image as an attachment :(
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1886/images/31053_A503951-00006?pId=269831
There are three different birth records on this page (Page 6) but the one I need to transcribe is the one on the bottom right of the right-hand page (Savino Giuseppe). Happily, there is a fair bit of info there so hope that's okay.
Thank You
Could you provide us the date and place of this birth record? Ancestry is only viewable for those with a paid subscription. Sometimes the same records can be found on sites where you don't have to pay. But in order to go looking for them, we need to know as much info as possible.
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The record is from 1878 and relates to a birth in the Comune of Marsicovetere in the province of Potenza, in the Southern Italian region of Basilicata.
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The record is from 1878 and relates to a birth in the Comune of Marsicovetere in the province of Potenza, in the Southern Italian region of Basilicata.
exact date please
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I’m pretty sure that it’s 16th of March (sedici di Marzo). And it was at 09:15!
I would post an image but my usual trick for reducing the size doesn’t seem to be working on this image.
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I’m pretty sure that it’s 16th of March (sedici di Marzo). And it was at 09:15!
I would post an image but my usual trick for reducing the size doesn’t seem to be working on this image.
I've found the record (N°15).
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this hopefully works
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Hi M4CKA. I've had a quick look at the birth certificate and it isn't very difficult to translate. Unfortunately, I can't do it tonight. Hopefully tomorrow or the next day.
Mary
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Here is the translation.
The year 1878, on the 16th of March at 9:15 A.M. in the Town Office
of the Comune of Marsicovetere, appeared Laura Masino, aged 43,
midwife, living in Marsicovetere, who declared that at 5:20 P.M. on
the 15th of the current month in the house at 3 Santa Vanese Street
from Filomena Savino, farmer, unmarried, living in Marsicovetere,
from her relationship with an unmarried man, not related to her,
(sorry, I can’t figure out the few words after the black smudge)
was born a male child whom she presented to me and to whom she
gives the name Giuseppe.
To the above were present the witnesses Giuseppe Campiglio, aged 40,
shepherd, and Giuseppe Russo (Ruzzo?) , aged 38, shepherd, who also
live in this Comune.
The declarer has reported the above birth because she assisted at the
birth applying her expertise, and in the place of Savino, who could not
report the birth because she is gravely ill. This act was read to those
present who did not sign because they are (illiterate?) as they told me.
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(sorry, I can’t figure out the few words after the black smudge)
the whole line reads:
non parente ne affine di lei nei gradi che ostano al riconoscimento
It's a kind of standard phrase for legal purpose, I think.
Google translate: neither related nor related to her in the degrees that preclude recognition
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Thank you so much everybody for your help, Mary50 and Zefiro have kindly translated this for me.
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Here is the translation.
The year 1878, on the 16th of March at 9:15 A.M. in the Town Office
of the Comune of Marsicovetere, appeared Laura Masino, aged 43,
midwife, living in Marsicovetere, who declared that at 5:20 P.M. on
the 15th of the current month in the house at 3 Santa Vanese Street
from Filomena Savino, farmer, unmarried, living in Marsicovetere,
from her relationship with an unmarried man, not related to her,
(sorry, I can’t figure out the few words after the black smudge)
was born a male child whom she presented to me and to whom she
gives the name Giuseppe.
To the above were present the witnesses Giuseppe Campiglio, aged 40,
shepherd, and Giuseppe Russo (Ruzzo?) , aged 38, shepherd, who also
live in this Comune.
The declarer has reported the above birth because she assisted at the
birth applying her expertise, and in the place of Savino, who could not
report the birth because she is gravely ill. This act was read to those
present who did not sign because they are (illiterate?) as they told me.
Thank you so much, this is really interesting. There is a great amount of information here. Hopefully I find his father one day.
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(sorry, I can’t figure out the few words after the black smudge)
the whole line reads:
non parente ne affine di lei nei gradi che ostano al riconoscimento
It's a kind of standard phrase for legal purpose, I think.
Google translate: neither related nor related to her in the degrees that preclude recognition
Thank you so much for this, extremely helpful.
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Hi M4CKA,
For some reason I was never notified of your responses. I would suggest that if you check marriage records after the baby was born, sometimes the couple got married. In such cases, there should be an annotation where the groom formally declares that the child is his and then there should be a document where his name is changed to the father's last name. Hope you have success finding the father.
Mary
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Hi M4CKA,
For some reason I was never notified of your responses. I would suggest that if you check marriage records after the baby was born, sometimes the couple got married. In such cases, there should be an annotation where the groom formally declares that the child is his and then there should be a document where his name is changed to the father's last name. Hope you have success finding the father.
Mary
Hi Mary,
I wasn't notified of your response either, but I've checked all marriage records in Marsicovetere before and after Giuseppe's birth about 10 years both ways and I didn't see Maria Filomena on any of the records which is a shame. I was wondering, could it be possible that Giuseppe Campiglia or Giuseppe Russo (the witnesses on Giuseppe's birth record) could be his father? I'm just confused because Giuseppe's wife, Mary Rose Gasparro, put her uncle as her father on their marriage record in 1900 and Giuseppe put his father as "Giuseppe Savino" and obviously "Giuseppe Savino" is not Giuseppe's father according to his birth record.
But thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it. I might try and ask one of my cousins who are 2 generations above me to take a DNA test and maybe I'll have more luck with matches, although I've never spoken to them in my life so I'm not sure how I'll pull that off.
Joey
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Hi Joey
A few observations from what I’ve learned in doing genealogy research in the south of Italy for the last 25 years.
As far as the witnesses being the father, I can’t say, but I would guess that they were just a couple of men that the midwife knew.
It’s possible that the father might have been the priest (it happened more times that you’d think) or a high ranking official. The law was that unless the couple was married, the father’s name was not given to the child. Since she kept the baby, it’s possible that everyone knew who the father was.
That’s odd that Giuseppe’s wife listed her uncle as her father. I would guess that her father passed away and then her mother married her deceased husband’s brother, which was expected if a brother was “available”. So, her uncle would become her father. Do you have Mary Rose’s parents’ marriage record – can you post it here?
As far as Giuseppe’s father also being a Giuseppe. I don’t know when the law was enacted, or if it applied to all of Italy, but I’ve learned that fathers could not name sons after themselves.
Did Giuseppe marry in Marsicovetere? If he did, he would have had to produce a birth record, and the marriage record would have reflected that he was of “unnamed” father. If he married outside Italy, then the rules were not so strict, and people made up information just to make the process move more smoothly.
These are just some observations from years of research. Sorry I can’t be any more helpful.
Mary
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Hello Mary,
Sorry for the delayed response I've been very busy recently. Do you know how I would be able to find names of any priests or high-ranking officials in Marsicovetere in 1878? I think it would be worth looking if there was somewhere where I could find that information. I had my father take a Y-DNA test through Family Tree DNA in 2017 but never really paid much attention to it. Now because of this brick wall, I know that it could be useful so I checked it out today and he has a match who is from Marsico Nuovo which is just 10 miles from Marsicovetere. His surname and the surname of his paternal line is Votta. I've seen a lot of Votta's in the Marsicovetere records so that could really be Giuseppe's father's surname. As for his wife Mary Rose, they married in Dublin on the 30th of May 1900. The man Mary listed as he father, Francis (Her uncle), died in 1892 so it couldn't have been a case of her mother re-marrying her uncle. Her biological mother died young in 1891 and her father re-married the year after. I forgot to mention in my last reply that although her father was from Marsicovetere, he and his brother's married in Ireland and I think what you were referring to about marrying an "Available brother" was something that happened more commonly in Italy and not Ireland, so sorry for forgetting that. So it's still a baffling situation, but I will attach an image of her parent's marriage record as you requested and also her father's other marriage record from when he re-married. Her biological mother is Mary Ellen Murphy and her Step Mother is Annie Redmond. Thank you for all your help I am truly grateful.
Joey