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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: History Lives on Wednesday 13 December 23 00:07 GMT (UK)
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I'm currently re-tracing my 4x great grandmother Ann Bowman after realising after a couple of years that my tree was wrong.
Her daughter Agnes Mitchell is my 3x great grandmother and went on to marry Alexander Ormond in Forfar. Her father is listed as John Mitchell, Crofter, and mother Ann Bowman.
I cannot find Ann's marriage to John Mitchell, but I have been able to find a later 1867 marriage to James Petrie which has Alexander Ormond (her grandson) as a witness. To make matters somewhat more complicated, I find that Ann died in Rutherglen in 1894, witnessed by Elizabeth Ogilvie, daughter in law. Elizabeth Ogilvie was married to Andrew Ogilvie, who died in 1929, with mother listed as Ann Bowman and father Andrew Ogilvie.
However, I can't find a birth for Andrew or a marriage between Ann and an Andrew Ogilvie.
Lastly, on her death certificate, her parents are listed as James Bowman and Elisabeth Joe. I can only find one sibling of Ann, Charles Bowman born 1820 in Tannadice, if anyone can help find other siblings or a baptism for Elisabeth Joe that would be great. I have found a likely birth for James Bowman in 1787 also in Tannadice.
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Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
1842 marriage John Mitchell & Ann Bowman
Agnes Mitchell & Alexander Ormond married in 1866 so how could grandson Alexander Ormond be a witness to an 1866 marriage of Ann Mitchell & James Petrie?
EDIT - should read 1867 marriage for Ann & James
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Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
1842 marriage John Mitchell & Ann Bowman
Agnes Mitchell & Alexander Ormond married in 1866 so how could grandson Alexander Ormond be a witness to an 1866 marriage of Ann Mitchell & James Petrie?
Not grandson, sorry, it would be son in law.
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Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
1842 marriage John Mitchell & Ann Bowman
Agnes Mitchell & Alexander Ormond married in 1866 so how could grandson Alexander Ormond be a witness to an 1866 marriage of Ann Mitchell & James Petrie?
I don't think that marriage is the correct one because there was another John Mitchell and Ann Bowman which were the ones I had initially confused with being mine.
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1851 census for Agnes Michell aged 8 b Cumnock - parents John 61 & Ann 49
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1851 census for Agnes Michell aged 8 b Cumnock - parents John 61 & Ann 49
The age is wrong for Ann, she was 74 in 1894 when she died. I think her and daughter Agnes were in Forfar in 1851, no husband.
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Please provide the following info
Where was Ann Bowman/Mitchell/Petrie/ born
Where & when was Agnes Mitchell born as I can't find an 1871 or 1881 entry for an Agnes/Alexander Ormond(e)
Same question for Alexander Ormond(e)
Ann's death was registered as Petrie aged 74 so b 1820
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Please provide the following info
Where was Ann Bowman/Mitchell/Petrie/ born
Where & when was Agnes Mitchell born as I can't find an 1871 or 1881 entry for an Agnes/Alexander Ormond(e)
Same question for Alexander Ormond(e)
Ann's death was registered as Petrie aged 74 so b 1820
Judging by the last census records of her living with Andrew Ogilvie (supposedly her son), she was born in Tannadice. Alexander Ormond was born in Forfar and in 1871 he and Agnes were living in Hartlepool, Durham. Alexander died in 1872 in an accidental drowning at the docks. Agnes I believe was also born in Forfar.
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Ann Bowman married James Petrie in 1867 Forfar
What information does the marriage cert, give about her and her parents?
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Ann Bowman married James Petrie in 1867 Forfar
What information does the marriage cert, give about her and her parents?
It describes her as widow to John Mitchell, farmer, but makes no mention of another husband Andrew Ogilvie.
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Please answer the question fully regarding her parents.
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Andrew Ogilvie was Ann’s step-son, not her son
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Please answer the question fully regarding her parents.
James Bowman, think it says general labourer, and Elisabeth Joe. I would attach the full certificate but I'm on mobile at the moment so can't, sorry.
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Andrew Ogilvie was Ann’s step-son, not her son
What makes you think that? She is listed as his mother on Andrew Ogilvie's death certificate.
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Andrew Ogilvie was Ann’s step-son, not her son
What makes you think that? She is listed as his mother on Andrew Ogilvie's death certificate.
The 1871 census.- stepson to James. Sorry, my mistake.
Possible an illegitimate son - not necessarily married to Ogilvie
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1841 census Tannadice
John Mitchell 25
Ann Mitchell 20
Agnes Mitchell 11 mths
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14095bf4040b9d6eeeba1b/ann-mitchell-1841-angus-forfarshire-tannadice-1821-?locale=en
1851 census Forfar
Ann Mitchel b 1821 Tannadice – hand loom weaver
Daughter Agnes age 10 born Tannadice
1861 census Forfar
Ann Beaumont b 1822 Tannadice – hand loom weaver (Beaumont a mis-heard Bowman?)
Agnes Mitchell 20 daughter born Tannadice – hand loom weaver
Andrew Mitchell 8 son born Forfar (becomes Ogilvie in next census)
1871 census
James Petrie 69 (Joiner)
Ann Petrie (wife) b. 1819 Tannadice
Andrew Ogilvy 18 born Forfar (now using his father’s surname)
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Baptisms in Tannadice see index on Scotlands People
- James Bowman 15/10/1817 PARENTS - JAMES BOWMAN AND ELIS. IVE
- Charles Bowman 24/02/1820 PARENTS - JAMES BOWMAN/ & ELISABETH IVE (ALSO INDEXED AS ELISABETH JOE)
- Agnes Bowman 24/02/1820 PARENTS - JAMES BOWMAN/ & ELISABETH IVE (ALSO INDEXED AS ELISABETH JOE)
Agnes (1820) is probably your Ann – (name Agnes interchangeable with Nancy/ Nan and Ann /Annie).
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There is no marriage record for Ann Bowman to John Mitchel. If there was a marriage, it may have been an irregular marriage just before or around the time of Agnes' birth in 1840, perhaps because Ann would not have been 21 yet. Unfortunately there are no kirk session records from this time in Tannadice to see if there may have been a mention.
Looks as if John Mitchell died before the 1851 census. Since there was no other child born to him, one speculates his death might have been closer to the 1841 census, than later.
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There are a few possibilities for the father of Andrew Mitchell / Ogilvy born abt 1853
Speculation: - It could be Andrew Ogilvie born1825 Kirrimuir – son of Alexander Ogilvy and Elspet Mitchell.
In 1851 he is a linen weaver living with brother-in-law.
1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a140d9ef4040b9d6ef38a94/elspet-ogilvie-1841-angus-forfarshire-kirriemuir-1788-?locale=en
Elspet Mitchel married 14/11/ 1807 to Alexander Ogilvy in Forfar
I wonder if there is a connection there to the John Mitchell family? Worth some exploring?
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From the census that Neale1961 has found, it looks as if Andrew Ogilvie was Ann Bowman or Mitchell's illegitimate son.
1891 Census, Rutherglen: Andrew Ogilvie, 38, born Forfar; wife Eliza, 36, born Forfar; William, 11; Ann, 8; Margaret, 4; all born Lanarkshire.
Ogilvie births in Rutherglen, mother's maiden name Findlay: William Findlay, 1789; Ann Bowman, 1882; Margaret Findlay, 1886.
Therefore Andrew Ogilvie's wife was Elizabeth Findlay, not Elizabeth Ogilvie.
Andrew Ogilvie and Elizabeth Findlay were married in Forfar in 1878.
I suggest that you get their marriage certificate from www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and tell us exactly what it says are the names of Andrew Ogilvie's parents.
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From the census that Neale1961 has found, it looks as if Andrew Ogilvie was Ann Bowman or Mitchell's illegitimate son.
1891 Census, Rutherglen: Andrew Ogilvie, 38, born Forfar; wife Eliza, 36, born Forfar; William, 11; Ann, 8; Margaret, 4; all born Lanarkshire.
Ogilvie births in Rutherglen, mother's maiden name Findlay: William Findlay, 1789; Ann Bowman, 1882; Margaret Findlay, 1886.
Therefore Andrew Ogilvie's wife was Elizabeth Findlay, not Elizabeth Ogilvie.
Andrew Ogilvie and Elizabeth Findlay were married in Forfar in 1878.
I suggest that you get their marriage certificate from www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and tell us exactly what it says are the names of Andrew Ogilvie's parents.
Parents of Andrew Ogilvie on his marriage certificate:
Andrew Ogilvie, Cattleman
Ann Bowman, linen weaver, married to James Petrie, Joiner
This is consistent with the parents listed on his death certificate.
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1842 marriage John Mitchell & Ann Bowman
This marriage was in the parish of Dun.
There are baptisms of children to John Mitchell and Ann Bowman, all in Dun: James 1842, William 1844 and Alexander 1846.
It is just conceivable that it's the same couple.
1840: birth of daughter Agnes in Tannadice
1841: John, Ann and Agnes living together in Tannadice
1842: John and Ann marry in Dun
1842: baptism of son James in Dun
1844: baptism of son William in Dun
1846: baptism of son Alexander in Dun
1846-1851: John dies and Ann and Agnes move to Forfar
This does require some explanations, however.
In particular, it requires John and Ann to be living together openly as husband and wife in her birth parish before they were married. That seems to me to be unlikely?
Fortunately the evidence to disprove it wasn't too hard to find.
1851 Census, Middle Drums, Brechin: John Mitchell, 30, born Maryton; wife Ann, 30, born Ballater: sons James, 8; William, 6; and Alexander, 4, all born Dun.
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Andrew Ogilvie, Cattleman
The Andrew Ogilvy I have looked at as a possible father appears as a ploughman, farm servant and agricultural labourer from the 1861 census and forward. Any of those occupations could be a cattleman.
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Parents of Andrew Ogilvie on his marriage certificate:
Andrew Ogilvie, Cattleman
Ann Bowman, linen weaver, married to James Petrie, Joiner
This is consistent with the parents listed on his death certificate.
Good. It can happen that an informant gets parents' names wrong on a death certificate. When they match the marriage certificate you can be pretty sure they are correct.
So that seems to be sufficient evidence that Andrew was Ann's illegitimate son, not her grandson, son-in-law, or stepson.