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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Scottie Lark on Thursday 07 December 23 02:17 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I'm looking for information about Ellen Collins who married Michael Delaney (ex convict) in Yass in 1842 and died 1843.
Please note that a recent mtDNA test confirms that she was not Aboriginal (as some have suggested) but European, probably Irish.
There is an old thread which mentions “two sisters, Ellen & Mary Collins who arrived on the Duchess of Northumberland 3rd Oct 1836. They turned up in Yass...”.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=159119.msg1721092#msg1721092
Does anyone know when this Ellen Collins was in Yass and what became of her?
Thanks
Bill
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shot in the dark - possibly Michaels son - b 1846 - he marries in Yass in 1891 and dies there 1913
https://gw.geneanet.org/myblue70?n=delaney&oc=1&p=michael
.................................
born in Yass in 1847
https://gw.geneanet.org/col069?n=delaney&oc=&p=william+john
...........................................
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Do you have the marriage certificate of Michael DELANEY and Ellen COLLINS. As you probably know, the area code "LF" on the NSW BDM means Yass, Roman Cathoilic. What information does it give about her?
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Ellen Collins Delaney
BIRTH
1822
Yass, Yass Valley Council, New South Wales, Australia
DEATH
31 Aug 1843 (aged 20–21)
Yass, Yass Valley Council, New South Wales, Australia
BURIAL
Yass General Cemetery
Yass, Yass Valley Council, New South Wales, Australia
MEMORIAL ID
197318276 · View Source
MEMORIAL
PHOTOS 0
FLOWERS 0
Ellen married Michael Delaney on 25 Oct 1842 in the Catholic Church, Yass, NSW
She died shortly after giving birth to her daughter Mary Anne Delaney.
*** NOTE Per a 2nd Great Grandson and his recent DNA results, he has no Aborigonal findings
Family Members
Spouse
Michael Delaney
1805–1881 (m. 1842)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/197318276/ellen-delaney#source
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Thank you for your replies.
Michael Delaney b. 1846 is the son Michael Delaney and his second wife Catherine Hanon. I'm looking for information about his first wife, Ellen Collins (m. 1842, d. 1843).
It's extremely unlikely that Ellen Collins was born in Yass in 1822 if she was European, as a mtDNA test confirms.
Do you have the marriage certificate of Michael DELANEY and Ellen COLLINS. As you probably know, the area code "LF" on the NSW BDM means Yass, Roman Cathoilic. What information does it give about her?
Thank you. Yes, I know that it was a Catholic marriage but, no, I don't have the marriage certificate yet. The transcript of their marriage record on Find My Past has no other information about her but I will check the actual certificate.
Cheers
Bill
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Hi Bill Do you have a marriage certificate?
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There is an official transcript of the Ellen/Michael marriage on Ancestry.
Roman Catholic Church
MARRIAGES
Groom: Michael Delaney, X his mark
Member: Roman Catholic Church
Abode: Bogolong
Bride: Ellen Collins, Her X mark,
Member: Roman Catholic Church
Abode: Bogolong
When married: Charles Lovat, Minister of Yass, Roman Catholic
Where married: Bogolong
Witnesses: William O'Brien of Bogolong, Margaret O'Brien of Bogolong, Her X mark,
Wikipedia;
The general grazing area which now encompasses the village of Bookham was originally collectively called Bogolong and childhood memories of the races at Bogalong Racetrack inspired Banjo Paterson to write his poem Old Pardon the Son of Reprieve.[3]
The name change came about in 1839 when Lady Jane Franklin, wife of John Franklin, the Lieutenant Governor of Van Diemen's Land between 1837 and 1843, became the first European woman to travel overland from Port Phillip to Sydney and stayed in the area in 1839.[4]
Bogolong also seems to be the name of a 'run' (Crown Land Lease)
Judith
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Thanks for the replies.
Yes, I already have the marriage certificate although it doesn't offer many clues regarding Ellen's origins. I still think that the Duchess of Northumberland connection (which I mentioned above) is the best lead and it's interesting that a Mary Collins was married in Yass (Catholic) in the same year as Ellen, although I'm yet to look at her marriage certificate.
It's interesting also that the witnesses were OBriens, and at first I thought this William O'Brien may have been a son of Henry O'Brien, the founder of Douro station and one of the pioneers of Yass. However, it seems that Henry only had one son (also Henry) and Henry's brother Cornelius had no children.
Thanks too for the fascinating Banjo Patterson info!
Bill
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I am having trouble doing a time line here. Is this correct? -
DELANEY Michael marr. COLLINS Ellen 25 Oct 1842 Bogolong
DELANEY Mary Anne born 31 Aug 1843 Bogolong
316/1845 V1845316 94 DELANEY Michael marr. HONON Catherine LF
DELANEY Ellen died 31 Aug 1846 Bogolong
DELANEY Michael bapt. 30 Sep 1846 Boorowa
What is the date for the DELANEY-HONAN marriage?
Did Mary Anne DELANEY, born 1843, marry?
How are her parents named on her marriage/death certificates?
It would be useful to see if knowledge of Ellen COLLINS is continued in this family, when Ellen would seem to have lived so briefly in the life of husband and daughter Mary Ann.
If knowledge of Ellen COLLINS can be seen after her death, it might suggest the presence of COLLINS family in Mary Anne's life.
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There is another arrival which may fit - so little information though!
from
New South Wales, Australia, Assisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1828-1896
Ellen Collins, 25, dairymaid
Birth Date abt 1816
Arrival: 18 Sep. 1841, New South Wales, Australia
Origin Location Tullogh Co Clare
Vessel Canton
Can Read and Write Neither
Religion Rn. Cathc
Parents: John Collins, Margt
Brought out by Thomas Gore & Co
Under protection of her brother Pat Collins.
This Ellen had a sister, Mary Collins on the same ship, aged 19 all other details the same as Ellen.
You have already noted a marriage for a Mary Collins, registered in Yass in 1842
Volume reference V18421431 92
Mary Collins, John Burnett
Denomination Roman Catholic
With so little information I'm unable to find anything re the brother named as Pat Collins
Judith
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Hi If you follow this link it will take you to Michael Delaney burial. It has a story attached and then click on the burial links for each family member to show further info. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/172911440/michael-delaney
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NSW BMD has indexed the (probable) death of the baby -probably not - see below
DELANEY MARY A
767/1853 V1853767 146 LH - we know that LH is an abbreviation for a Yass Roman Catholic registration.
My mistake, sorry! Amended to add: this is incorrect - according to NSW BMD the church code LH is for Roman Catholic, Parramatta, St Patrick's
LF is the code for Roman Catholic Yass
Probably not given the above information. This death certificate may give information about Ellen as well. It's cheaper and quicker to use a transcription agent for NSW BMDs. Link here: https://www.nsw.gov.au/family-and-relationships/family-history-search/search-guide#toc-family-history-search-enquiries
All of the three listed agents are excellent.
I'm not finding a registration of birth of the baby, nor a death registration for Ellen.
Judith
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I'm not finding a registration of birth of the baby, nor a death registration for Ellen.
Judith
We must remember too, that the biographical information on "find a grave" is by user contribution, so it may not always be correct.
As matter of interest, in regard to the 2 COLLINS sisters per Canton to the protection of brother Pat COLLINS, there was a Patrick COLLINS at Yass receiving (or not receiving) mail in 1846
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230141781
An observation ;D
Single women were very scarce in those early colonial days.
Marriage of those of eligible age usually took place within a year or two of arrival.
Sue
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I have just spotted Patrick COLLINS on the same voyage of the Canton as the two lasses Ellen and Mary COLLINS given by Judith above.
He was 27, a farm labourer b. County Care.
Roman Catholic who could read and write and imported by Thomas GORE.
He gives his father as John and mother, hard to read, but might be Peggy........
Sue
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Excellent find, Sue! And "Peggy" could easily be "Margaret"!
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I would like to know more Thomas GORE, shipping agent.
I am not completely sure of the role of such agents.
Did his role embrace employment or placement of immigrants?
Sue
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Bounty immigrants were free immigrants whose passage was paid by the colonial government under the `bounty scheme'. Under this scheme, an incentive or reward (i.e. bounty) was paid to recruiting agents in Britain to find suitable skilled labour and tradespeople, then ship them out to the new colony which urgently needed the working class people to do the manual labour in this new and untouched land.
From
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hilaryfr/genealogy/booth/bounty.htm
Bounties were paid to the ships' masters for the safe delivery of their passengers under the scheme. The typical bounty was 19 pound ($38) for an adult and 5 pound for a child. Bounty for the amount of 4,956 pound was claimed for the agent, AB Smith & Co. of Sydney, for the safe and healthy arrival of the immigrants on the "England" in July 1841.
Under the `bounty scheme' newly married couples, or single men and women were given preference. Large families were rarely accepted. Selected immigrants were generally shepherds, ploughmen and agricultural labourers, with a lesser number of tradespeople such as brickmakers, carpenters, blacksmiths, tailors and needlewomen.
There's quite a few articles found about the bounty scheme by googling, eg -
https://jennyjresearch.com/resfldr/Notes%20on%20Assisted%20and%20Bounty%20Immigration%20to%20Australia.pdf
It's my understanding that the shipping agent wasn't necessarily involved in where/how the immigrants went after landing. Their responsibilities were with organising the actual ships and voyages. Thomas Gore appears to be quite a large firm.
Judith
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Wivenhoe
It's all a bit sketchy but here are some of the documented "facts" that I think I have nailed down:
Ellen Collins was of European descent (per my mtDNA test) and she married Michael Delaney in Yass on 25 Oct.1842 (marriage certificate). It seems generally accepted that she died in 1843 after giving birth to Mary Ann but I'm not sure what hard evidence there is for that. There is a baptismal certificate for Mary Ann Delaney (available from the Yass parish) but I haven't seen it yet. Apparently that gives Mary Ann's DoB as 31 August 1843, and I presume that's why the same date is assigned to Ellen's death but in the absence of a death registration or death certificate that's unverified. Apparently the baptismal certificate names her mother as "Catherine" which is curious. By the way, where did you get the 1846 date from?
The location of her grave is also unknown. Her Find-a-Grave entry states that she was buried in Yass general cemetary but there seems to be no verifiable evidence for that (the uploader couldn't provide any documentation and the Yass Historical Society has advised that the cemetery wasn't in use in 1843).
Michael and Ellen had one female offspring (per Michael's death certificate).
Mary Ann's first daughter was named "Ellen" which seems to support that parentage.
Mary Delaney married James Boyd in 1862 in Yass (3325/1862). I haven't seen any marriage certificate.
Mary Ann later formed a defacto relationship with James Hendry (or Hendrey), with whom she had eight children (born from 1867 to 1882).
Mary Boyd married Michael Powell in 1896 (5008/1896) in Boorowa, NSW.
Mary Powell died on 11 Sept. 1929 (17798/1929) in Murringo and her obituary says she was 85 and had been previously married to James Boyd. The age at death would make her year of birth as 1844, but perhaps that's an error in the obituary. Just to muddy the waters further, the death registration gives her father's name as Michael and her mother as "Mary" (transcription error?).
Michael Delaney married Catherine Hanon (or Honon/Hanan/Hannan) in Yass on 1845 and they had eight children.
Michael died near Yass on 15 July 1881 and is buried in the Yass general cemetery.
Michael Delaney's will shows that he bequeathed one shilling to Mary Boyd (but the bulk of his (reasonable) estate went to his sons Michael and James and his wife Catherine.
Catherine died on 29 July 1896, also at their farm in the Yass district and is also buried in the Yass general cemetery.
Please let me know of any corrections or additions.
Thanks
Bill
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Judith and Sue
Thanks for all of that information and that Canton connection is certainly possible but they are such common names so without any link to Yass it's anyone's guess.
Regarding the Bounty scheme, Trove has some interesting contemporary news articles. I think the Duchess of Northumberland girls were mostly maids or house servants and there was some controversy at the time because they were all supposed to have been vetted for their character but there's were accusations that many were low class and unvetted (there was probably a certain degree of anti-Irish sentiment involved). Elizabeth Rushen's Colonial Duchesses looks very interesting in this regard but I haven't read it yet. I think they're may be more information about the DoN Collins sisters on the Ancestry Library Edition but I live overseas and I haven't been able to access that.
I want to do an Autosomal DNA test which hopefully might provide some concrete links to other descendants of Ellen in Ireland.
Bill
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Can you clarify please?
Your interest is in - Mary Powell died on 11 Sept. 1929 (17798/1929) in Murringo ?
and all the information you are working with is for the purpose of researching her origins?
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Mary Powell was my great grandmother so I have an interest in her but I'm particularly trying to research the origins of her mother Ellen Collins (my great great grandmother).
Bill
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You have not seen any of these documents that you are referring to ? -
* There is a baptismal certificate for Mary Ann Delaney (available from the Yass parish)
* Mary Delaney married James Boyd in 1862 in Yass (3325/1862).
* Mary Boyd married Michael Powell in 1896 (5008/1896) in Boorowa, NSW.
* Mary Powell died on 11 Sept. 1929 (17798/1929) in Murringo
* Michael died near Yass on 15 July 1881
* Michael Delaney's will shows that he bequeathed one shilling to Mary Boyd (but the bulk of his (reasonable) estate went to his sons Michael and James and his wife Catherine.
What BDM documentation do you have for the people you are naming?
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Apologies for the confusion, but yes, with the exception of Mary Ann's baptismal certificate, I've seen the BDM records for all of points you mentioned (I included the references in brackets but I forgot to put in Michael's death reg ref).
Regarding Mary Ann's baptismal certificate, I'll heard the details second-hand and I know the the Catholic parish in Yass does have a record.
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Can you please list all the information on each of these documents.
* Mary Delaney married James Boyd in 1862 in Yass (3325/1862).
* Mary Boyd married Michael Powell in 1896 (5008/1896) in Boorowa, NSW.
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Again, apologies if I wasn't clear.
I've only viewed those records in the NSW BDM database. The certificate for her marriage to Michael Powell isn't available and I haven't seen the marriage certificate for her marriage to James Boyd.
I do however have the marriage certificate for Michael Delaney and Ellen Collins as well as Michael's death certificate and his will.
As I mentioned above, my main interest is to find the origins of Ellen Collins.
Thanks
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Hi Scottie,
It might be a positive step if you were to sight the baptismal document from Yass Parish.
Have you explored this NSW State Library help option?
https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/about/policies-and-publications/legislation-and-policies/ask-librarian-service-guidelines
ADDING
Do you have a date the baptism of little Mary?
If the marriage of Delaney to Catherine was not till 1845, was that the year of the infant's baptism?
Otherwise it would be very odd that an unmarried woman was named as mother.
Sue
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Hi Scott,
I offer this "family summary" tentatively as it may have no bearing whatever on the HANNON family of your interest.
It gives some possible family background of one Catherine HANNON and I do note she was unmarried in 1844 as a sponsor at a baptism in Yass district.
https://www.gundaroo.info/genealogy/other/thomashannan.htm
Sue
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Hi Sue
Yes, I agree that it's very odd if Catherine was named as her mother on the baptismal certificate and I can't confirm the date. Conversely, I think it's significant that Mary Ann named her first daughter Ellen and her fourth daughter Catherine. I do need to verify the baptismal certificate myself but I've been busy lately with some interesting discoveries in a different branch.
Thanks for the info on the Hannons. I believe that is the same Catherine and i think I have their passenger list (but my PC died last week and I can't access it right now :'(). It's interesting that Catherine was the godmother for one of her nephews who was born in Bowning. Bowning was the location of Michael Delaney's first farm...
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I would also like to note that a newborn infant requires mother's milk.
If the mother died at the birth, there would need to be quickly a woman already feeding an infant.
DELANEY would definitely need female/community support to source and manage this situation.
One wonders how this was managed.
Sue
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Yes, I have no idea how they managed. As I noted above, I don't even know what evidence there for the oft repeated claim that Ellen died soon after childbirth. Perhaps Catherine was a member of the Irish community there and she helped to support them and that eventually led to their marriage? From the Hannon info you supplied earlier, it seems that Catherine's brother at least was living in the same area as Michael Delaney.
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There is too much supposition, stories, etc here for you to advance with confidence.
If the marriage, 1862 Yass, is the earliest evidence you have that Mary Delaney ever existed, you need to see that document.
* Mary Delaney married James Boyd in 1862 in Yass (3325/1862).
* Mary Boyd married Michael Powell in 1896 (5008/1896) in Boorowa, NSW.
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From Trove which you may already have:
Death Notice for Michael:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/263967911
The Yass Courier, Sat 16 July 1881
DEATH.
At Wargiela, near Yass, on the 15th instant, Michael Delaney, aged seventy-eight years. The Funeral will take place to-morrow (Sunday), and the procession will reach Yass about Half-past Two p.m.
Judith
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I live not far from Yass. If you can find out whether the Catholic church there has any of the relevant baptism/marriage/death/burial certificates available for viewing I'd be happy to go and look at them/photograph them.
Cheers, Judith
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That's a kind offer Judith ;D
I agree with wivenhoe that there seems to be a lot of undocumented assumptions some of which are just copied from one to another.
When I first spotted this book about the DELANEY's
Book by Mary Muller (2012)
https://au.blurb.com/b/3494358-the-delaney-lineage
I thought it might hold reall evidence, but a glance through the first pages revealed lots of "it is believed" and "we think"
So probably not worth the $45 investment.
Sue
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Thank you Judith, that is a very kind offer but I wouldn't want to impose on you. I intend to visit Yass myself next time I'm back in Australia and I've been in touch with the parish office there and apparently they will conduct research for a "donation" of $50 but it can take up to three months. However, if you're ever in the vicinity and you'd care to make an enquiry, that would be greatly appreciated.
I agree with Sue and Wivenhoe that there are a lot of undocumented assumptions and I've been trying to sift through these over the past couple of years. I've been involved in academic history research for the past forty years so I do understand the importance of primary sources.
The first assumption I tested was the rather absurd notion that Ellen was aboriginal and I've proved that to be false with my mtDNA test (if, of course, she was Mary Ann's mother). Last year I also exchanged a series of (exacerbating!) emails with the person who created their find-a-grave entries, trying to nail her down on the sources of her information. I also agree that these ancestry sites are riddled with errors which are just copied and pasted without checking their authenticity.
Two of my cousin's did a lot of research on this side of the family 30 or 40 years ago and I think that a lot of the information surrounding Michael Delaney and Ellen Collins originated with them. Unfortunately, one of those cousins has passed away and the other is very elderly, so it's difficult to verify their sources.
Having said that, I do think that the evidence of the BDM records together with Mary Ann's obituary and Michael's death certificate, while not conclusive, does suggest that Mary Ann Delaney (Boyd Hendry Powell) was the daughter of Michael Delaney and Ellen Collins.
As I mentioned earlier, I hope that an autosomal DNA test might shed some more light on the subject.
Thanks too Judith for checking Michael's death notice (which I do already have).
Cheers
Bill
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Hi Scottie Lark, I have a copy of the James Boyd/ Mary Ann Delaney Marriage Certificate - 11 Oct 1862 at the Church of St Augustine's, Yass