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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: AngiRay on Saturday 02 December 23 13:53 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Wondered if anyone could find a little information that for some reason is eluding me. I am trying to find what happened to my great-grandfather and great grandmother.
Information so far:
George Henry Hardy b. 29 June 1864, Hill Street, Derby
Rose Hannah (or Rosannah) Mansfield b. 8 August 1865, Woolwich Kent
Two children Frederick Lional Hardy b. 1 Jan 1890, Markeaton Poor House and May Hardy b. 1888 Derby.
In 1891 mother and children were living with mother's parents Frederick and Dorcas Mansfield in St. Peters, Derby but no sign of George. In 1901 the children were still with the grandparents but no mention of either George or Rose.
By 1911 both May and Frederick were married and living independently.
I cannot find either George and Rose Hardy on the 1901 or 1911 census, and I cannot find a death certificate either. Wondered about divorces but then can't find a further marriage.
Thank you any insights
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When May Hardy married John Guthrie Murray in 1910
She names her father as George Henry Hardy fitter, but doesn't say he is deceased
Normanton, All Saints.
Not much help really.
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There is a notice in the Derby Daily Telegraph 15 May 1889 which states :
" I Rose Hannah Hardy of 183 Siddals Road and late of 15 Arboretum Place, Derby, herby give notice that I will not be responsible for any debts that my husband, George Hardy, may contract, Signed Rose Hardy".
William
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Wow, thank you so much, never expected any replies so quickly. So looks as if they split. When Frederick married also in 1910 he did not list father as deceased. Thanks again
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There is a notice in the Derby Daily Telegraph 15 May 1889 which states :
" I Rose Hannah Hardy of 183 Siddals Road and late of 15 Arboretum Place, Derby, herby give notice that I will not be responsible for any debts that my husband, George Hardy, may contract, Signed Rose Hardy".
William
183 Siddals Road is where Rose is lodging with her parents in 1891.
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There's a confusing tree on Ancestry. I have tried to work out how Rosanna moved from Hardy to Stevens but have failed.
I found a few records but they are so messy I'll have to post them separately or I'll confuse myself and every one else.
Tree owner is Terry Lillingston.
When ROSANNA MANSFIELD (aka STEVENS aka Hardy) was born about 1866, in Woolwich, England, her father, FREDERICK, was 29 and her mother, Dorcas, was 18. She had two sons and one daughter with Thomas Michael Lillingston between 1903 and 1911. She died in March 1947 in Bradford, England, at the age of 81.
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Hi,
You might already have a Death for Rosanna Hardy on GRO June 1905 Shardlow age 42
Can't find her 1901 though.
Stefan
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99% sure I have found her.
Watch this space and be patient with me, I could be wrong 😉
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Working back.
Death
Rosanna Lillingston Death Age 81 Birth Date abt 1866
Registration DateJan 1947[Feb 1947][Mar 1947
]Registration QuarterJan-Feb-Mar
Registration district Bradford
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Annie Lillingston birthdate 8 August 1865 😀 widow
Living at 26 Sticker Lane Bradford.
Also there is Florence L Green widow, born 2 December 1902
This record is dated 1939
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1911 23 Wellington St, Camden Town
Thomas Michael Lillingston 41Head b St Pancras
Annie Lillingston 40 Wife b Woolwich Kent
Florence Lillian Lillingston 8 Daughter
Frank Charles Lillingston 5 son
Both children have mmn as Stevens.
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Freebmd
Marriages Mar 1902 (>99%)
Ellinor Henry WIlliam Pancras 1b239
Lillingston Thomas Michael Pancras 1b239 xxx
Moody Lillian Dorcas Pancras 1b239
Stevens Annie Pancras 1b239 xxx
Unless we find a certificate how can we be sure who her father is.
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Annie Lillingston birthdate 8 August 1865 😀 widow
Living at 26 Sticker Lane Bradford.
Also there is Florence L Green widow, born 2 December 1902
This record is dated 1939
26 Dec 1919.
Lilian Florence Lillingston 19 married George Green 22 in Kentish Town.
Her father was Thomas Lillingston a painter, George's father was George Green a doctor deceased.
A witness was Doris Stevens.
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Wilcoxon, thank you so much. I did see the tree but couldn't work it out at all. This gives me a lot to go on. thanks again
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StefanD99, thank you so much
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Hi,
Frederick Lionel mmn Mansfield
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in BELPER Volume 07B Page 567
May Hardy mmn Mansfield
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 520
FS has a marriage
George Henry Hardy
Rose Hannah Mansfield
24 Dec 1887
St Werburgh, Derby
Stefan
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1901 St Pancras . I think this is the right family. I suspect that Annie / Rosanna may have knocked a few years off her age in 1911.
Thomas M Lillingston 59Head
Elizabeth Lillingston 57Wife
Elizabeth S Lillingston 33Daughter
Thomas M Lillingston 31Son xxx
Agnes G Lillingston 29 daughter
Charles H Lillingston 19Son
,William D Lillingston 19Son,
Maria E Lillingston14 Daughter
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I can't find Annie / Rosanna in 1901.
I guess that the only way to be sure it's the same person is to get the marriage certificate.
It's possible it's a Civil marriage therefore no parish register.
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1901 St Pancras, same district as the Lillingston family
John Carville 54 Head carpenter
Ellen Carville 54 Wife
Sarah Gorge 58 Servant
George Reever 24 Boarder
Annie Stevens 30 Visitor. Domestic cook B Woolwich. Kent. Xx same year of birth as Annie Lillingston in 1911, but incorrect for 1939.
This is the best I can do. Could this be Rosanna/ Annie knocking a few years off her true age or am I on the wrong road completely.
It's a shame that the online tree doesn't have more detail.
I think the marriage certificate is needed 🙂
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Thank you Wilcoxon. I think she may have just adopted a new name(s) but will try and get hold of certificates. I always try and verify online trees with certificates if I can. Thank you again
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Give us an update when you can, it's nice to see if I was right or wrong.
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Will do....think it will take a little unravelling :D
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FS has marriages:
Rose Ann Hardy
Bradford
Oct-Nov-Dec 1895
Possible Spouse Ellen Hirst
Possible Spouse Joseph Holroyd
Possible Spouse Bernard Mcevan
Stefan
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FS has marriages:
Rose Ann Hardy
Bradford
Oct-Nov-Dec 1895
Possible Spouse Ellen Hirst
Possible Spouse Joseph Holroyd
Possible Spouse Bernard Mcevan
Stefan
Not this marriage. Rose Ann married Joseph Holyroyd, appears in 1901-21 census and dies 1939 with probate record.
SS
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Thank you everyone for the time and effort you have put in. I think I am heading to the conclusion that Rose just adopted names rather than marrying and George just seems to have disappeared - probably to get away from his debts :) Still, many other branches to keep investigating. Thank you all again
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There's a confusing tree on Ancestry. I have tried to work out how Rosanna moved from Hardy to Stevens but have failed.
I found a few records but they are so messy I'll have to post them separately or I'll confuse myself and every one else.
Tree owner is Terry Lillingston.
When ROSANNA MANSFIELD (aka STEVENS aka Hardy) was born about 1866, in Woolwich, England, her father, FREDERICK, was 29 and her mother, Dorcas, was 18. She had two sons and one daughter with Thomas Michael Lillingston between 1903 and 1911. She died in March 1947 in Bradford, England, at the age of 81.
It would be interesting to know how the tree owner has got to Rosanna Mansfield and her parents.
In 1939 Annie Liilingston has the same birthdate as Rosanna Mansfield.
Her age at death matches
All census records have her birthplace as Woolwich.
It's too much to be a coincidence surely 🤔
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More to convince me that Annie Stevens / Lillingston is Rosanna Mansfield.
Records on Ancestry.
1905 Poor Law.
Thomas Michael Lillingston, painter, 14 Oval Road .Camden. 1 /11/05 = 16 / 11 / 05. Perhaps he was receiving poor relief.
1911 Thomas Frederick Lillingston bapt July 1911 parents Thomas Michael and Annie. 23 Wellington Street Camden
1910/11 Electoral Registers. Thomas Michael Lillingston 23 Wellington Street. Camden
No Annie as women didn't have the right to vote then.
1920. Camden Workhouse. Admission 27 / 1 / 1920 discharged 5/2 /20. Harwell ?
Thos. Michael Lillingston. Painter. Ward 2. 6 Cathcart Street nearest relative Annie.
He could have been ill, many old workhouses were hospitals by then.
Thomas Michael Lillingston died 1930
1935 Electoral registers
6 Cathcart Street.
Lilian Florence Green
Rosanna Lillingston XXX
Frederick Thomas Lillingston
She has used her real name .
Annie and her daughter Lillian probably moved to Yorkshire because her son Frederick Thomas married Harriet Breese who was born there
I just couldn't resist trying for more 😀
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Well found Wilcoxon, she still used Rosanna in 1936/7 electoral registers
SS
added, freesearch 1921 census
T M L occupation painter
1870
St Pancras, London, England
Norwood
Uxbridge
Middlesex
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Nice one. I have found. I don't subscribe so can't see full details.
1921
Florence Lillington b 1904 Camden . Living in St Pancras.
Also on record Annie and Frank.
Looks like it could be them
1911 23 Wellington St, Camden Town
Thomas Michael Lillingston 41Head b St Pancras
Annie Lillingston 40 Wife b Woolwich Kent
Florence Lillian Lillingston 8 Daughter
Frank Charles Lillingston 5 son
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Sorry this is a long read, but it will make Wilcoxon feel a whole lot more confident!
Names are as they appeared in print. The only problem is figuring out if there is a new Mrs. Stevens to look for....
The obits of Rose/Hannah's parents:
The Derbyshire Advertiser and Ashbourne, Uttoxeter and North Staffordshire Journal. 21 May 1920
Funeral of Crimean Veteran in Derby
The remains of Pte. Frederick Mansfield, a Crimean veterans were laid to rest on Friday afternoon with full military honours.
(I have omitted all the part of the military procession, as it is a massive description, and jumping down to the family bits)
The chief mourners were: Mrs. Mansfield, Mr. F. Mansfield, Mr. G. Mansfield, Mrs. Lillingstone, Mrs. Sparkes, Mrs. Alton, Mrs. Stevens, Mrs. F. Mansfield, Mrs. G. Mansfield, Mrs. G. Sparkes, Mr. J. Alton, Mrs. Murray, Mr. T. Stevens, Mrs. Douglas, Miss L. Stevens, Mr. F. Sparkes, Mr. Fred Mansfield, Miss D. Stevens, Miss M. Alton, Miss F Mansfield, Mr. Murray, Mrs. W. Mansfield, Mrs. Chell, Miss Sparkes, Mrs. Sparkes, and Mr. Douglas.
Floral tributes were sent by Mrs. Mansfield, Mr. and Mrs. F. Mansfield and family, Mr. and Mrs. G. Mansfield and family, Mr.s and Mrs Sparkes and family, Mr. and Mrs. Stevens and family, May and Jim, Annie and Robert, Doris and Louie, Mr. and Mirs. Lillingstone and family
(and many more from neighbours and military regiments which I have not included)
The coffin of English elm bore the inscription: "Frederick Mansfield, at rest May 10, 1920, aged 83 years." The coffin was covered with the White Ensign. At the close of the service at the graveside a firing party fired a last volley and buglers sounded the "Last post."
The funeral arrangements were carried out by the Derby and District Funeral Co. Ltd.
Derbyshire Advertiser and Journal 27 August 1926 (and other papers)
LOCAL FUNERALS
LATE MRS. D. MANSFIELD
The funeral of Mrs. D. Mansfield, widow of the late Frederick Mansfield (Crimean veteran), of 42, Wellington-street, Derby, took place on Wednesday, August 25th, at the Nottingham-road Cemetery. The first part of the service was taken in St. Andrew's Church and impressively conducted by the Rev. J. Eastham, who also officiated at the graveside.
The mourners were Mr. F. Mansfield (son), Mrs. Sillington (daughter), Mr. S. Mansfield (son), Mrs. Alton (daughter), Mr. G Sparkes (sonin-law), Mrs. F. Mansfield (daughter-in-law), Mr. T. Stevens, (son-in-law), Mrs. S. Mansfield (daughter-in-law), Mr. J. Alton (son-in-law), Mrs. G. Mansfield (daughter-in-law).
Floral tributes were sent by Mr. and Mrs. Frederick Mansfield and family, Mr. and Mrs. Sillington and family, Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Mansfield, Mr. and Mrs. Sparkes and grandchildren, Mr. and Mrs. Alton and grandchildren, Mr. T. Stevens and family, St. Andrew's Women's Bible Class.
The coffin was of English Elm with brass appointment and nameplate. inscribed: - - "Dorcas Mansfield, at rest August 21st, 1926, aged 79 years".
The funeral arrangements were in the hands of Messrs. Thos. Lloyd and Co., Ltd., under the direction of Mr. W. Harvey.
I hope this helps, although it does take some sorting out as to who everyone is!
Edit: On the 1881 census, I see Rosannah had a younger sister, Hannah. Could it be that there is a mix-up of the families between Rose and Hannah in that Anc tree? (I think Hannah, not Rose, married Thomas Stevens?)
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Still further info to come hopefully, but starting point?
Marriages Dec 1897
Mansfield Hannah Derby 7b 1080 Address at marriage 183 Siddals Rd Derby)
Stevens Thomas Derby 7b 1080
Births
STEVENS, DORCAS LOUISA MANSFIELD
GRO Reference: 1898 D Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 555
STEVENS, DORIS MAY MANSFIELD
GRO Reference: 1900 D Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 484
STEVENS, THOMAS HENRY MANSFIELD
GRO Reference: 1902 S Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 620
STEVENS, WILLIAM ERNEST MANSFIELD
GRO Reference: 1904 D Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 605
STEVENS, EDITH ANNIE MANSFIELD
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 605
STEVENS, MAY MANSFIELD
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 670
1901/1911 census records family in the same household as Hannah's parents Frederick & Dorcas
SS
Added--well worked out bbart :)
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Thanks, SS! ;)
A wee bit more... when looking at the obituary for Dorcas, the "Mrs Stevens" is missing, as Hannah died the month before...
Italics indicate I haven't typed out what was written)
Derby Daily Telegraph 08 July 1926
STEVENS - On July 6th, at 42, Wellington-street, Derby, Hannah Stevens, aged 48 years.
Derby Daily Telegraph - 07 July 1930
In Loving memory of Hannah Stevens, who passed away July 6, 1926
(memorial poem)
- From all at 42, Wellington-street; also Louie and Enos
Derby Daily Telegraph 06 July 1931
In Loving memory of Hannah Stevens, who passed away July 6, 1926
( a different memorial poem)
Fondly remembered by her loving husband and family at 42, Wellington-street; also Louis and Enos, 1, Olive-street.
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Well done bbart.
It seems pretty clear that Mrs Lillingston is Rosanna, and Mr & Mrs Lillingston and family must refer to Thomas Michael her husband and their children.
I'm wondering where TML was exactly in 1921 and who else was there.
Was the 1921 record I thought may have been Annie correct.
There is a record on Deceased Online for burial records of TML and his father who are possibly buried together.
Also this - LILLINGSTON. —March 5. 1947, at 20, Marsland-place, Bradford, Rosanna, widow of Thomas Michael lillingston, aged 81 years. Interment took place on March 10 at Bowling Cemetery, Bradford.
I found both from a Lillingston family on Anc by Christine Hilsden .
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Hi, so grateful for all the work and infirmation here. Unfortunately I managed to drp my computer on Sunday so its in for repair so only on my mobile at the moment. Will get back on asap. Thank you agaiń all x