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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: R.Hammans on Friday 01 December 23 19:20 GMT (UK)
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Back in the 1970s, I acquired a collection of glass plate negatives dating from around 1900, by my estimation. Can't remember where I got them, possibly an auction, but I've carted them around for years without doing anything with them.
There's not much to help identify their original owner except one headstone and some possibly identifiable places and faces - but there are an awful lot of those so I hope someone may get some pictures of their ancestors one day.
I did a cursory search on Ancestry for the Hazelgrove name 4 years ago, but nothing that can positively identify them. Possibly they have a connection with Worthing, maybe Sussex generally.
I've included three, hopefully, but you can view the entire set here:
https://the-golden-fleece.co.uk/temp/EdwardianPhotos/ (https://the-golden-fleece.co.uk/temp/EdwardianPhotos/)
Sharing them in case anyone spots something connected to their research. If they are of interest, get in touch.
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That's a lovely collection. I don't have any connection to them, but here are a few thoughts anyway.
David and Harriett Hazelgrove both died in the East Preston registration district, so clearly they were in Sussex.
Besides the photo of the car you've posted, there's one of a different car next to the same house, but from another angle. This car has the registration CL-382, which was issued in Norwich some time after 1904 - the use of the hyphen might help to pin it down better. It might also be possible to identify the make and date of both cars.
Also in that picture is a road name - Gordon Road. I haven't managed to locate it, but I'm fairly confident it should be possible.
Some of the photos clearly aren't Sussex - Cornwall, perhaps? The Alps or Norway for some?
If you'd like some help with these, try posting them on the Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition board.
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To answer your question David Hazelgrove came from West Tarring Sussex.
He's variously described as ag. lab. gardener & huntsman.
In 1891 he's receiving Parochial Relief which begs the question who
paid for this expensive headstone?
It's sounds like he was working on an estate so maybe the photos originated
from that family possibly the family of the man in the car.
The lady in the car's style indicates a date of 1908-10.
The lady in photos QP 4 & 5 is the lady seated in photo 2 on here.
She also appears in several others.
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Thank you Jim1 & Arthurk for some useful info and tips.
I have tried to find where that particular Gordon Road may have been but no luck so far, seems there is a definite Sussex connection though.
Hopefully someone with an interest in that name will come forward at some point.
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He was buried in Worthing.
What a wonderful set of pictures. Quite a few of them strike me as pictures of the staff rather than family.
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To answer your question David Hazelgrove came from West Tarring Sussex.
He's variously described as ag. lab. gardener & huntsman.
In 1891 he's receiving Parochial Relief which begs the question who
paid for this expensive headstone?
It's sounds like he was working on an estate so maybe the photos originated
from that family possibly the family of the man in the car.
I'd noticed the parochial relief as well, though (without looking it up again) I think his widow was of independent means in the 1901 census.
The texts on the memorial might hint at them being ag labs, but perhaps in 1891, aged about 79, David had still been doing light work but that was the point at which he'd become unable.
Circumstantially it seems possible that his former employer paid for the stone and provided a pension for his widow - it's the sort of thing that good employers might do (noblesse oblige etc). One of my ancestors died while in service, leaving a wife and 3 young children; he has a very complimentary gravestone, and the family story is that the employer supported the family for many years afterwards.
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Photo no. HP-02 in your collection showing the house and car on Gordon Road is 99 Gordon Road, Carshalton (on the corner of Glebe Road).
Have a look at the Streetview link below.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sts/
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Great find, Jool :) :) :)
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Photo no. HP-02 in your collection showing the house and car on Gordon Road is 99 Gordon Road, Carshalton (on the corner of Glebe Road).
Have a look at the Streetview link below.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sts/
Excellent Jool - well done for finding that!
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He was buried in Worthing.
What a wonderful set of pictures. Quite a few of them strike me as pictures of the staff rather than family.
An interesting observation and it is certainly possible, although they must have been very close to the family to be included in their photographs. One of those pictured is - I believe - the photographer, or associated closely with the photographer. There are two glass plate formats in the collection, half plate & quarter plate, suggesting he or she was very keen on the hobby.
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The wife’s name was Harriet Jupp. The couple married on 24 June 1841 at East Preston Sussex. His father was James and her father was George.
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What an amazing collection. I love these sorts of candid photos!
I found the photos of the dog particularly touching. S/he was obviously a much loved member of the family.
To me there look to be a combination of photos of fairly well do do people as well as servants, as mentioned previously. Some look a bit scruffy and others are well turned out.
The family obviously had a lot of affection for their servants.
Amateur/ hobby photgrapher, looking at the fabrics hanging behind a lot of the portraits? Wonderful.
I’m sure the family can be traced, and with some careful sleuthing it may even be possible to trace living descendants.
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I agree, a wonderful set of photographs!
Can you make out what it says on the card in the photo with the cake HP-35? " Every wish for always ... " looks like a couple of names. :-\
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A marvellous collection. Edwardian country gentry and their staff.
The photographer seems to have taken a holiday in North Devon.
QL-01 shows the port at Lynmouth with the original distinctive "Rhenish Tower" lighthouse. (It was lost in the 1952 floods and has been replaced with a modern replica.)
QL-02 is a view of part of Lynmouth from the mole near the Tower. The building in the background with the flag in front is an inn currently known as The Rising Sun and still flying a flag on its flagpole.
I suspect the rest of the QL group are taken in the Lynmouth area but do not know it well enough to pinpoint any of them. QL-05 may be looking at the houses on Countisbury Hill.
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Can you make out what it says on the card in the photo with the cake HP-35? " Every wish for always ... " looks like a couple of names. :-\
It looks like:
Every wish for always
Squeak & Chas
You can see it clearer on the higher res image if you download it.
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Lovely detailed photos, glass slides, probably somebody's ex pride and joy. Cannot help much on the rest but can advise on the PHOTOS WITH THE CAR. Registration CP 382 was issued by Norwich Borough Council in 1907. The hyphen between the letters and numbers was mandatory by law on all early registrations, so this confirms a genuine early registration. The picture with the lady shows a French manufactured car with clearly visible de Dion Bouton steering wheel and two free standing engine controls. The picture with the house shows that the car had a low mounted edged radiator without a frame or a logo. This suggests a smaller car, so probably a cca 1905 De Dion Bouton, probably with a 6HP engine. The body is quite fascinating, possibly unique, in having what seems a single driver’s front seat, set to the left, with no front passenger seat on the right. This was presumably sacrificed so that rear passengers can get in via the side door, rather than the normal practice where the rear passengers got into a tonneau via a central door in the rear of the vehicle. Birth of a ‘tourer’ body? Or perhaps the owner had a problem with a leg and needed additional space to keep it straight? Fascinating.
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We do know you know your vintage cars but impressive
all the same vintman.
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What fabulous photos and in such great condition, Thanks for sharing Hammans, would love to see more.
Carol
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A very insightful analysis, vintman - thank you.
The picture with the lady shows a French manufactured car with clearly visible de Dion Bouton steering wheel and two free standing engine controls. The picture with the house shows that the car had a low mounted edged radiator without a frame or a logo. This suggests a smaller car, so probably a cca 1905 De Dion Bouton, probably with a 6HP engine....
I originally thought there were two different cars:
Besides the photo of the car you've posted, there's one of a different car next to the same house, but from another angle.
because although there are strong similarities, I noticed that the lights were different. The one in the side view (with the lady) has two large low level ones and one small high level, but the one we see head on has just one large low one and two smaller high ones. It also looks to have a rear view mirror just above the small light, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of that in the side view picture.
This suggests to me that either they're different cars, or if it's the same one, they were taken on different occasions, before and after modifications had been made.
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The headlamps would have been acetylene and the side lamps would have been acetylene or oil; here acetylene. Both sets of lamps were removable mainly for daily refilling and cleaning. They were often left off entirely during wet daylight hours to stop tarnishing the bright brass. or they would have had a leather bag over them for same reason. Headlamps would have fitted into a 'U' shaped upright forks which says permanently on the car. The 'U" uprights fit into slots in the side of lamps and have a wing-nut to fix them. The empty fork on the right can just be seen on the house photo and empty missing sidelight bracket on the car photo.
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Lovely detailed photos, glass slides, probably somebody's ex pride and joy. Cannot help much on the rest but can advise on the PHOTOS WITH THE CAR.
Wonderfully detailed information vintman, thank you.
Now I just need to trace its owner... :)
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I think some of the photos are taken at Grove Park, Carshalton (not far from Gordon Road).
Photo QL-03 (pond with ducks and a bridge in the background) looks like the main image here... https://www.goparks.london/park/the-grove-park/
If you scroll down there are also waterfalls at Grove Park, maybe photo QL-07 was taken here, and possibly other photos in the collection.
Another picture of the pond/bridge here ... https://www.flickr.com/photos/rogersg/15641923047
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HL -09 is in Norway, Merok, (Geirangerfjord), so the others like the glacier may also be Norway.
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I may have discovered where the money came from to pay for David and Harriet Hazelgrove's expensive looking headstone.
David and Harriet's first child, Mary Ann Hazelgrove, was employed as a servant to Alexander Pearson Fletcher for 40 years until his death in 1907. She was generously provided for in his will.
See this website for more details, I have posted 2 quotes below.
https://www.heenecemetery.org.uk/burial/alexander-fletcher-buried-1907/
"They employed a 19yr old nursemaid, Mary Ann Hazelgrove, born in Worthing, and she remained with Alexander for over 40 years until his death in 1907. She was generously provided for in his will – see attached report."
“Mr. Alexander Pearson Fletcher of Edenhurst, Belsize Road, Worthing, formerly director of the Northern Assurance Company, who left estate valued at £45,593 bequeathed an annuity of £25 to Miss Ada Adams until she should become an in-patient of the Putney Hospital for Incurables (of which she is now an out-pensioner) and to his servant. Mary Ann Hazelgrove, a life annuity of £100, a further annuity of £50 towards the upkeep of a suitable house in Worthing, and a considerable proportion of his furniture and other belongings, or, in lieu thereof, a further annuity of £50. He also gave one year’s wages to two other servants and £20 to his occasional gardener, George Curd.”
Alexander Pearson Fletcher and his family could be the people in the photos - more investigation needed.
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Nice work Jool. :)
It might be worth reading the full will in case it mentions any relatives. I’m sure that these photos would be of interest to both Fletcher and Hazlegrove descendants.
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Hi Ruskie :)
I've been trying to find photos of the Fletcher family to see if they are the same people in the photo collection, no luck.
There are quite a few mentions in various newspapers on Findmypast, particularly relating to their deaths and wills, and I was hoping there may be a photograph. Unfortunately my Findmypast sub has expired so I can't view the original articles :(
If any kind person has a sub and the time to take a look for a photo or more information, here are the people I spotted in the newspaper snippets.
Alexander Pearson Fletcher, died Dec 1907, Worthing, Sussex.
Charles Robert Leslie Fletcher, died Apr 1934, Oxford. (only son of Alexander)
Mary Ann Hazelgrove, died June 1910, Lindfield, Sussex.
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This is all remarkable information and my thanks go to all who have taken the time to do some digging on this. It seems that a clearer picture is emerging of this family and their domestic staff, their wealth and location.
£45,593 in 1907 equates to around £7,000,000 today, quite a legacy!
His son left the equivalent of £2.5 million when he died in 1934.
I'm wondering if their only son, Charles Fletcher, was perhaps the photographer?
I hope someone is researching the Fletchers of Worthing as it would be wonderful to return the pictures to a descendant.
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I'm wondering if their only son, Charles Fletcher, was perhaps the photographer?
I hope someone is researching the Fletchers of Worthing as it would be wonderful to return the pictures to a descendant.
I wondered that too. I suspect the old chap in the car (and other photos) will be Alexander Pearson Fletcher, but my impression was that the driver in the head-on photo of the car was younger. I wondered if that might be Charles - the photo could have been taken by someone else under instruction, though I'm fairly sure that one of the photos I have of a similar age was taken by a keen amateur photographer with some kind of self-timer. Note that the car is stationary in both photos. (I note vintman's earlier comment about the lights, but I still think the question of it having a mirror or not probably suggests two different occasions.)
I still have a few queries in my head about locations. I had a look for Fletchers in and around Carshalton in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, but didn't see anyone obviously related. However, there must have been some reason for them to be there.
Then there's the car with the Norwich registration. Had someone driven down from Norwich, and if so, who? Or was the car second-hand? The Fletchers were clearly wealthy enough to buy new, and something much bigger, though they might of course have preferred not to - Alexander may have been a canny Scot ;).
I've also been looking at some of the other photos in the collection. I only know it from pictures, but could QP-06 be Box Hill? Is it the same as https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/activityandadventure/walkingholidays/8356605/Box-Hill-Surrey-walk-of-the-week.html? Might some of the HP-xx ones be there too? And the bridge at HL-29/30 looks identifiable too....
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I still have a few queries in my head about locations. I had a look for Fletchers in and around Carshalton in the 1901 and 1911 censuses, but didn't see anyone obviously related. However, there must have been some reason for them to be there.
I've been trying to find a connection between the Worthing Fletchers and Carshalton.
In 1911 the occupiers of "Braeside" 99 Gordon Road, Carshalton (the house in the photo) were Walter Harold Poucher and his wife Lily (nee Pooley). I can't find a connection between these people and the Fletchers.
However, next door at "Bantry" is Edward Merry Owen (son of Edward Owen and Sarah Elizabeth Merry) and his wife Eliza. Coincidentally (or not?) Charles R.L. Fletcher married Alice Katharine Collings Merry (daughter of William Walter Merry and Alice Elizabeth Collings). I haven't been able to confirm a "Merry" family connection but it seems a bit of a coincidence.