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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Sparklecat170 on Wednesday 08 November 23 19:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi All, Any top tips would be gratefully received. Maria E Smith b. 1861 @ Southwark married Joseph Hardy b. 1857 in 1882 in Lambeth. In Feb 1901 Jospeh died and in the 1901 census of the same year three of their children Lily, Willy (William) and Samuel were living with Joseph's sister Edna Stratton and her family. William and Samuel were still with Edna in 1911. I can't find what happened to Maria, there is no obvious death or remarriage but why would she leave her children with their Aunt for at least 10 years? There is a record of a Mary Hardy b. 1862 in City of London as an Inmate at the Lambeth Workhouse but is this her? The first name and YOB are wrong but who knows?? Does anyone have any ideas where I should look next?
Thank you.
Sarah
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"In Feb 1901 Joseph died"
Where did he die?....what was cause of death?......who is the informant?.......is he described as widower?.....where is he buried?
"...1901 census.......three of their children Lily, Willy (William) and Samuel were living with Joseph's sister Edna Stratton and her family".
What names do you have for other children?. Have you located them in the 1901 and 1911 Census?
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Yes I agree with wivenhoe the information on the death certificate for Joseph would provide valuable information.
When was their youngest child born?
Names and ages are often incorrect so a Mary born 1862 shouldn't be ruled out just yet **
** according to the census record that lady was single and a domestic servant.
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I've found the family in 1891 - Lilly is mis-transcribed as Kitty F Hardy
GRO index shows HAIDY, LILLY FRANCES born in the June quarter 1887
Other children were I believe
Joseph Thomas 1882
George Gabriel 1885
Lilly Frances 1887
Samuel 1889
William 1893
Sorry have to rush off - back later.
Nesta
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Family tree on Anc lists Joseph Hardy's cause of death - Heart disease. Notified by sister Edna Stratton 35 Zoar Street, Southwark
Kay
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Hi all
Thanks very much for your help and top tips. I have Joseph's death cert (died age 42) and as mentioned above the informant was his sister Edna Stratton. The cert makes no mention of his marital status. He was living in Southwark at the time. I don't know where he was buried.
Joseph and Maria had 5 children:
Joseph T - 1882
George G - 1885 (my relation)
Lily F - 1887
Samuel - 1889
William - 1892
From ancestry.co.uk I contacted someone who has Samuel in their tree and she gave me some interesting info:
The story goes that, as a boy George stole a whip from a Hansom cab and was sent to reform school in Newcastle. Upon release he stayed up there, married Jane and opened a sweet shop. He visited my Mum's family in Southwark from time to time and had thoughts of opening a shop down there, though that never happened. I know very little about Maria, she left Joseph when Samuel was very young and he always refused to talk about her - my Mum tried to find out more and would love to have known why she left, where she went etc but she never got very far. Joseph died young when Samuel was still a boy and he and his younger brother Bill ended up in a children's home (the same one as Charlie Chaplin). When their names were posted on a list of children to be sent to Australia, Joseph's older sister Edna took them in and they stayed living with her for the rest of their childhood.[/color]
On the 1901 census I found a Maria Smith (has she reverted to her maiden name?) living in Greenwich about 2-3 miles from where Joseph died and she has an occupation of Bakery / Confectionery Shop - own account. I wonder whether this is the reference to a sweet shop from the info above that has got a bit distorted over time. I may be clutching at straws though.
It doesn't help that her maiden name was Smith but to be fair finding info about her father John Smith is even worse.
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Hi,
In 1891 the family were living in Brockley. This could be Maria,
28 June 1895
Brockley News
Regards,
Daisy
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Now, that would be a turn up! Makes a difference from Coal Miners and Agricultural Labourers. I shall check out the addresses.
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1896 Sam and William are registered as attending St John The Evangelist School in Camden. Home address is 22 Kingsgate St
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Working on the age in that article, there's a Maria Hardy, widow, admitted to Southwark Workhouse in July 1902 - aged 37. She's discharged a few days later to Banstead (a mental health institution)
Also Maria Hardy b c1864 is admitted to City Road Workhouse, Holborn in August 1898. She leaves next day along with John A Hardy, newborn
HARDY, JOHN ANDREW
mmn SMITH
Q3 1898 ST GILES Volume 01B Page 627
Added: sadly
John Andrew Hardy
Age 0
Death Registration Q4 1898
St Giles Vol 1b p363
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This is fascinating research and I am so grateful. If this is my Maria Hardy it puts into context why her son Samuel didn’t want to talk about her. The only thing that niggles is that I have her birth certificate and she was born in 1861 not 1864. That’s not to say it’s not her but it leaves me with a small element of doubt. I suspect the Maria Hardy in the article and this info about the workhouse and the mental health hospital are the same person but are they ‘my’ Maria Hardy who officially was 3 years older??
Re the newspaper article how could I find out whether she was sentenced for the crime and if so what punishment she received.
As I said I am so grateful to you all , I clearly have a long way to go with developing my expertise.
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Have found the reception order fr the 1902 admission. Maria, a widow and former needle woman, is of unsound mind. On examination she's acting strangely, believes she is the Queen, her son is the king and she's worried about her subjects. Little of her background is recorded, apart from her cousin being a Thomas Wiltshire of Old Kent Road
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Working on the age in that article, there's a Maria Hardy, widow, admitted to Southwark Workhouse in July 1902 - aged 37. She's discharged a few days later to Banstead (a mental health institution)
Also Maria Hardy b c1864 is admitted to City Road Workhouse, Holborn in August 1898. She leaves next day along with John A Hardy, newborn
HARDY, JOHN ANDREW
mmn SMITH
Q3 1898 ST GILES Volume 01B Page 627
Added: sadly
John Andrew Hardy
Age 0
Death Registration Q4 1898
St Giles Vol 1b p363
The only thing that niggles is that I have her birth certificate and she was born in 1861 not 1864. That’s not to say it’s not her but it leaves me with a small element of doubt. I suspect the Maria Hardy in the article and this info about the workhouse and the mental health hospital are the same person but are they ‘my’ Maria
I can’t find a baptism London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1923 to confirm John’s parents. Perhaps obtaining his birth certificate might be of help - a digital image of the b/c from GRO cost £2.50
Edit to add
Have found the reception order fr the 1902 admission. Maria, a widow and former needle woman, is of unsound mind. On examination she's acting strangely, believes se is the Queen, her osn is the king and she's worried about her subjects.
Little of her background is recorded, apart from her cousin being a Thomas Wiltshire of Old Kent Road
Is this Maria birth entry?
SMITH, MARIA ELIZABETH mmn WILSHURE
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 167
Her marriage on 6 Aug 1882 to Joseph Hardy, one of the witnesses was a George Wiltshire
Samuel Hardy age 11
William Hardy age 8
Admission Date 6 Jun 1901 Lambeth
Discharge date 8th Jun 1901 Lambeth
Relative Aunt Mrs Stratton
London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1921
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Ancestry London School Admissions and Discharges
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1938/
Canterbury Road School
HARDY Joseph Thomas admitted 25 Jun 1888 born 7 Aug 1882
parent Joseph res. 85 Blockhouse St
HARDY George Gabriel admitted 25 Jun 1888 born 8 Feb 1885
parent Joseph res. 85 Blockhouse St
HARDY George Gabriel admitted 24 Jun 1889 born 8 Feb 1885
parent Joseph res. 43 SHARRATT St
JONES Harriet admitted 24 Jun 1889 born 8 Feb 1885
father William res. 43 SHARRATT St born 16 May 1884
HARDY Lilly Frances admitted 15 Jun 1891 born 5 Mar 1887
parent Joseph res. 43 Sharratt St
JONES Edward admitted 15 Jun 1891 born 15 Dec 1887
parent David George res. 43 Sharratt St
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The 1902 reception order found by Mabel does look promising. I see a George Wiltshire was a witness at Maria and Joseph’s wedding.
Pinetree
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I'm not sure whether to be pleased or not because this is definitely my Maria Hardy. Her mother's maiden name was Wiltshire so any doubt I had due to the different YOB has been cleared. I'm sure many of us would be happy to take a few years off if we thought we could get away with it!
I have looked at the digital birth certificate for the baby John Andrew and his father is stated as Joseph so all is correct. I didn't know anything about this baby and it's sad he died so soon after he was born.
As I said before it's no wonder that it was all a big secret but isn't it great that some super sleuth genealogists can uncover it in a matter of days.
I still need to find Maria's death so I shall concentrate on that. I can't believe I would ever have got this far without you all.
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Thanks for letting us know good news that you have confirmation that John Andrew Hardy was their son.
Well done to Mabel for finding the workhouse records and that she was transferred to Banstead.
If Maria didn't die before 1921 census she could be listed with initials only at Banstead Mental Hospital, Sutton :-\
Don't know if this link will be for any help regarding Banstead https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F103137
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Yes great progress on this one :)
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Well done to Mabel for finding the workhouse records and that she was transferred to Banstead.
If Maria didn't die before 1921 census she could be listed with initials only at Banstead Mental Hospital, Sutton :-\
Don't know if this link will be for any help regarding Banstead https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F103137
I tried Banstead on 1911 but didn;t find anyone that fitted. I'll add well done to DaisyPetal for finding the newspaper cutting that made me think it possible Maria had some mental health issues, given her odd behavior
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Samuel Hardy age 11
William Hardy age 8
Admission Date 6 Jun 1901 Lambeth
Discharge date 8th Jun 1901 Lambeth
Relative Aunt Mrs Stratton
London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1921
They were in the infirmary, rather than the workhouse, on this admission
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Could this be a possibility for Maria in 1939 you would need to look at the original record
Maria Hardy b1861
Uckfield R.D. Sussex
Possible death
HARDY, MARIA age 78
GRO Reference: 1940 J Quarter in UCKFIELD Volume 02B Page 382
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Hi,
In 1891 the family were living in Brockley. This could be Maria,
28 June 1895
Brockley News
Another shorter newspaper article in
Kentish Mercy London 5 July 1895
The strange story at Greenwich
Maria Elizabeth Hardy 31 of Trinity Grove on remand for stealing……………the prisoners recognisance were taken in £5 to be of good behaviour for three months
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Hi,
There's a possible Maria in just 4 miles from Banstead,
London County Council Long Grove Asylum, Epsom, Surrey
M H
Patient
Age: 51
Widow
Mantleworker
POB: Southwark
Infirmity: Lunatic (44 written next to that.)
There are a lot of things to look at here, including links to Banstead hospital,
https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/themes/subjects/mental_hospital_records/long_grove_hospital_epsom/
Daisy
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Hi Daisypetal
Oh dear, the plot thickens. Please can you tell me, if you have it, the year or date of this admission to Long Grove Asylum. Also, please would you mind telling me how you came across this information as I suspect there are websites that I currently don't have access to which I should consider.
I don't live too far from the Surrey Archive Centre at Woking so I think I may make a trip there.
Many thanks
Sarah
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The Long Grove asylum record is from 1911 census. Maria may have been move between institutions depending on her condition. One someone's in the system it's not alway easy following them
Surrey Archives may be able to help for records over 100 yrs old - may not help identify her death
https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/themes/subjects/mental_hospital_records/long_grove_hospital_epsom/
There's a Maria A Hardy who dies 1957 in her 90s in Surrey
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Ooh, I'm sorry, I forgot to say it was the 1911 census. Thank you Mabel for pointing that out :)
I found the record at FindMyPast but it's also on Ancestry. I can't see any other info. about it and agree that Surrey Archives are the best bet.
I think that the Maria A HARDY that dies in 1957 is a Maria Antonietta HARDY.
Regarding the Maria HARDY that dies in 1940 I think it would be worth looking her up in the 1939 Register. I think she is a patient in the "Public Assistance Institution" in Uckfield. I think this comes under the Uckfield Poor Law Union.
I found this website difficult to navigate but maybe it's me. Eventually I found that if you search for "Uckfield Poor Law Union and Uckfield Public Assistance Institution" then view the record and click on "Uckfield Poor Law Union" a lot of record items show up buut I think you will have to contact them to view individual ones.
https://www.thekeep.info/
Maybe someone else will have better luck.