RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Cosmos55 on Thursday 02 November 23 12:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to trace any history of my late great grandfather who was First Sargent THomas Brown Berkshire Regiment.
He was living in Richmond Barracks in January 1906 with his wife Annie Brown and they had a child in Dr Steevens hospital, South Dublin !! January 1906.
We have no trace of any of them after this date. Possibly the daughter was adopted as living in London in 1911 under another name. Maybe her father went on to fight in the first world war?
Thank you in advance for any help of guidance to help solve our mystery whilst my father is alive at 92!
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Welcome to RootsChat. :)
Do you have an approximate birth date for Thomas? Unfortunately Thomas Brown is a common name and there seem to have been several in the Berkshire regiment. Any such detail might help determine which Thomas.
Nell
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How does your father connect to the Brown family? ie who does he connect back to? Are you saying that there may have been children to the couple before the child born in Dublin in 1906?
Here is the birth registration
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01752/1691158.pdf
Annie Bessie Brown born 7/1/1906. Her mother's maiden name seems to be Raven
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Here is a link to the birth record.
Father is in 1st Berkshire regiment
Mother is Annie Raven
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01752/1691158.pdf
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Annie Ruth Raven marriage to Thomas Brown
Jan-Mar 1903 Reading Berkshire
Their son - baptised in Bengal India 30 Jan 1908 (born 2 Jan 1908)
Thomas Henry William Brown
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGW8-2BL
(I'm speculating from the names given to this first son, that as Annie's father was named William, Thomas' father might be Henry)
ADDED - In 1911 this son, Thomas Brown (age 3) is living with his grandparents William and Annie Raven in Reading. His birth place incorrectly recorded as East Indies, should be India.
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In 1911 census Sutherland House in Windlesham, Surrey (looks like a private school)
Annie Ruth Brown age 29 is widowed working as a servant/ cook (3 children recorded)
This is Annie Ruth Raven with her parents and siblings in 1891 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:71JF-13Z
Annie in 1901 census. She is working in the Royal Berkshire Hospital
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS3F-K1Y
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If I am on the right track then Thomas Brown (of 1st Berkshire regiment) died sometime between 1907 and 1911.
The next step would be to get the marriage certificate to get more information about Thomas. This might make it easier to find a death for him.
Marriage Jan-Mar 1903 Reading Berkshire - Annie Ruth Raven to Thomas Brown
The mother appears to have been
Annie Ruth Raven born 1882 in Bradfield Berkshire (father William Raven, mother Annie Brunsden)
Birth Registration (surname mis-spelled)
RABEN, ANNIE RUTH Mother - BRUNSDEN
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in BRADFIELD Volume 02C Page 351
I would look for her in the 1921 census with the surname Brown, or look for possible marriages for her after 1911
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A possible for Thomas Brown ? (but marriage cert. is needed to confirm)
Born Sept quarter 1873 Wantage - son of Henry Brown and Lucy Rumble.
He is with his parents in East Ilsley, Berkshire in the 1881 and 1891 census. But, I don’t see him after that. If he had joined the military, he would have been abroad during 1901 census. ( 1st Berkshire reg was in Gibraltar)
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Excellent work Neale1961. Just pointing out the child born in India in 1908 Thomas Henry William Brown has Henry as one of his first names. Perhaps William is for Annie's father?
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Although Sgt Thomas Brown was clearly with the 1st Battalion in 1906 in Dublin (per the birth registration - see reply3 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=877766.msg7497940#msg7497940)), the baptism of son Thomas in India in 1908 indicates that the father had transferred to the 2nd Battalion (the old 66th Regiment of Foot) which had gone to India in 1906 and remained there until 1912. Since Anne appears to be back in England in 1911 and a widow, I think it's fair to conclude Sgt Thomas Brown may have died in India. However there are no Army/overseas deaths of a Thomas Brown reported for the period 1906-1911 in India. There are several possible deaths at sea but without any details to confirm or eliminate him.
Of course it's possible that Anne made up the bit about being a widow, perhaps in order to get the job in the (?)private school in Windlesham. If so, and Sgt Thomas Brown was still in India at the time of the 1911 census, that would account for why he can't be found in the UK.
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Cosmos55
Your replies have unfortunately come through as 'reports to moderator' - I will add them to this thread.
To reply to any message please click on the blue REPLY button (see attached image).
These are the replies:
How does your father connect to the Brown family? ie who does he connect back to? Are you saying that there may have been children to the couple before the child born in Dublin in 1906?
Here is the birth registration
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01752/1691158.pdf
Annie Bessie Brown born 7/1/1906. Her mother's maiden name seems to be Raven
reply from Cosmos
HI I am so grateful for your very quick response to my email. Yes this is my late grandmother and i have a copy of her birth certificate but she was then adopted and living in London in Census1911 with adoptee parents, Louis Hayward and Mary Elizabeth Hay
and
Although Sgt Thomas Brown was clearly with the 1st Battalion in 1906 in Dublin (per the birth registration - see reply3), the baptism of son Thomas in India in 1908 indicates that the father had transferred to the 2nd Battalion (the old 66th Regiment of Foot) which had gone to India in 1906 and remained there until 1912. Since Anne appears to be back in England in 1911 and a widow, I think it's fair to conclude Sgt Thomas Brown may have died in India. However there are no Army/overseas deaths of a Thomas Brown reported for the period 1906-1911 in India. There are several possible deaths at sea but without any details to confirm or eliminate him.
Of course it's possible that Anne made up the bit about being a widow, perhaps in order to get the job in the (?)private school in Windlesham. If so, and Sgt Thomas Brown was still in India at the time of the 1911 census, that would account for why he can't be found in the UK.
reply from Cosmos
Very interesting, thank you so much, so Im trying to trace when/where my late grandmother was adopted who was born in Dublin 1906 and living in London 1911 under a different name. Her close friend at her funeral said she was adopted at a very young age bu
Good sleuthing from other Rootschatters.
Nell
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she was then adopted and living in London in Census1911 with adoptee parents, Louis Hayward and Mary Elizabeth Hay
Cosmos, if you want us to comment on the 1911 census, please provide complete information which will enable us to find it. I have not found it with the names you have supplied above.
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she was then adopted and living in London in Census1911 with adoptee parents, Louis Hayward and Mary Elizabeth Hay
Cosmos, if you want us to comment on the 1911 census, please provide complete information which will enable us to find it. I have not found it with the names you have supplied above.
Further to Neale1961's reply could you please confirm, or not, that
'she' was known as Annie Bessie Brown throughout her life or did her name change on the adoption?
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Cosmos,
I have sent you a personal message trying to assist you to navigate RootsChat.
I hope you have received it.
Nell
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Although Sgt Thomas Brown was clearly with the 1st Battalion in 1906 in Dublin (per the birth registration - see reply3 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=877766.msg7497940#msg7497940)), the baptism of son Thomas in India in 1908 indicates that the father had transferred to the 2nd Battalion (the old 66th Regiment of Foot) which had gone to India in 1906 and remained there until 1912. Since Anne appears to be back in England in 1911 and a widow, I think it's fair to conclude Sgt Thomas Brown may have died in India. However there are no Army/overseas deaths of a Thomas Brown reported for the period 1906-1911 in India. There are several possible deaths at sea but without any details to confirm or eliminate him.
Of course it's possible that Anne made up the bit about being a widow, perhaps in order to get the job in the (?)private school in Windlesham. If so, and Sgt Thomas Brown was still in India at the time of the 1911 census, that would account for why he can't be found in the UK.
I have looked through the 1911 census records at the detachment of 2nd Royal Berkshire Regiment who were in Chakrata, Uttarakhand, India.
There is no Thomas Brown listed. So he was not in India, or had died, or had left the military before that date.
However interesting to note there is Benjamin Brown age 20 who is brother to the Thomas Brown I identified in my reply #7 (son of Henry and Lucy Brown of East Ilsley, Berkshire)
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I think I have finally found the 1911 census that Cosmos is talking about. :)
It is partly damaged and ages are missing.
43 Kings Rd, Chelsea, London
Louis Hayward – stationer’s printer, born Bath (from 1939 reg - born 19 Nov 1880)
Mary Elizabeth Hayward – wife born Cornwall (from 1939 reg - born 29 Jun 1874, Nee Perry)
Freida Stephanie Hayward – daughter, born Dublin (from 1939 reg – born 11 Jan 1906)
I think it would be good for Cosmos to engage with us on the forum now. Feed back is needed.
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Cosmos is new to the website and seems to be experiencing a little difficulty in navigating around. They have been trying to give feedback on the public boards, but it's not always going to the right place! ;)
Please allow them some time to work things out.
Nell
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Hi
This is all very interesting and I cant thank you enough. I will colate and pass on to my father.
To add to the mystery of all this between February 1906 and April 1911 (Census) my grandmother 'Annie Bessie Brown DOB 11 January 1906' was living in Kings Road London with her adoptee parents Louis Hayward and Mary Elizabeth Hayward and she was renamed -Freida Stephanie Hayward.
She married my grandfather in Bristol and became 'Freida Stephanie Barraclough'.
Having had 10 boys (quins) who all dies then 5 individual boys she decided to leave the family home about 1950 ish. She changed her name by deed poll sometime later to Freida Stephanie Felton and I have her last passport 1992.
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Hi. I am amazed at the speedy response and detail of information provided. Thank you. Would anybody be able to guide me in the direction of adoption for Annie - possibly after February 1906 when her birth was registered in Dublin and before the 1911 Census living in London? Annie Bessie Brown changed of name to Freida Stephanie Hayward?
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Legal, formal, adoption wasn't in place until 1926.
Before then you are looking at informal adoption.
Maybe a religious organisation?
P.S. Welcome to RootsChat :D
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Hello again Cosmos55. Could you please let us know what information that you have that confirms that Annie Bessie Brown is the same person as Freida Stephanie Hayward? Do you have DNA evidence, or other documents?
…. between February 1906 and April 1911 (Census) my grandmother 'Annie Bessie Brown DOB 11 January 1906' was living in Kings Road London with her adoptee parents Louis Hayward and Mary Elizabeth Hayward ……
What information do you have that confirms she was at that address between 1906 and 1911? If she is Annie Brown, I would expect she’d be in India until 1908 or later.
She changed her name by deed poll sometime later to Freida Stephanie Felton …..
On the 1939 reg. her name change to FELTON is dated 2.7.1959.
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Hi
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She married my grandfather in Bristol and became 'Freida Stephanie Barraclough'.
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When she married your grandfather in Bristol in XXXyear(pl supply) what names did she enter as family members on her marriage certificate please?
I am wondering:
1 if Annie was left behind in the care of the Haywards while the parents went to India. Thomas was born in India later. Perhaps it was never the intention that it be permanent but her father's death and her mother coming back to England in perhaps straitened circumstances meant her mother left her where she was.
or
2 Annie was left with the Haywards when the family of Annie, Thomas and their mother returned from India after the death of Thomas Snr.
Have we tracked what happened to Annie Raven Brown and Thomas Henry William Brown who was born in India in 1908, after they returned to England, presuming they did return.
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She married in Bristol in 1929. Father recorded as Louis Hayward.
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Here is the Family Search record for Thomas jnr born 2/1/1908 & christened on 30/1/1908. Annie has another first name added of Ruth and the child's nationality is shown as American?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGW8-2BL
And this is an interesting one
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6VY9-8445
Seems to indicate that Thomas may have been born in 1903 and christened in 1908. If he was going to a church school in India at age 5 it may have been a requirement that he be christened. Or using the Occam's Razor approach they may have mistranscribed the 1903 to 1908.
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Here is the Family Search record for Thomas jnr born 2/1/1908 & christened on 30/1/1908. Annie has another first name added of Ruth and the child's nationality is shown as American?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGW8-2BL
And this is an interesting one
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6VY9-8445
Seems to indicate that Thomas may have been born in 1903 and christened in 1908. If he was going to a church school in India at age 5 it may have been a requirement that he be christened. Or using the Occam's Razor approach they may have mistranscribed the 1903 to 1908.
The 1903 birth date is a mis-transcription. he was 3 in the 1911 census.
See earlier posts. His parents married in England in 1903.
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Yes I see he was with his maternal grandparents aged 3 in the 1911 census.
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In 1911 census Sutherland House in Windlesham, Surrey (looks like a private school)
Annie Ruth Brown age 29 is widowed working as a servant/ cook (3 children recorded)
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Who are the three children recorded please?
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Annie Bessie Brown was changed to Freida Stephanie Hayward on adoption to Louis and Mary Elizabeth Hayward between 1906 and 1911 (Census)
Married in 1929 to Herbert Cecil Barraclough in Bristol - then became Freida Stephanie Hayward
Left Herbert Cecil about 1948-1951 and subsequently changed her name by deed poll as didnt want to persue a divorce apparently.
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Any details I know were from a conversation from an elderly close friend to my mother at Freida Stephanies funeral. Freida tried to get a passport on leaving her husband but couldnt seem to find her birth cert. She finally managed to learn from her adoptee mother that she was adopted.
She had four names:
Annie Bessie born in Dublin 11 Jan 1906
Freida Stephanie Hayward (adopted name by Louis and Mary Elizabeth) NO RECORD OF ADOPTION
Freida Stephanie Felton - name changed by deed poll (partner Jack Felton) Oxfordshire
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Cosmos, Thanks for the additional information to clarify.
I really think your next step would be to order the marriage certificate, as you need to identify exactly who Thomas Brown was. This may help to find a death for him. Then you may know better when the family returned to England from India, and help understand when an informal adoption might have taken place.
Marriage certificate - Annie Ruth Raven to Thomas Brown
Jan-Mar 1903 Reading Berkshire
Vol 2c Page 589
I have looked for shipping records of their return travel to England between 1908 and 1911, but could see nothing. Others may be able to find something, or it could be that the family returned as part of a military group.
There are numerous possibilities – Thomas left the army; he died in India or England; or Thomas and Annie separated – we can only speculate. Accessing the full birth record for the son born in India in 1908 may give you a better understanding of the father’s position in terms of work.
Note – there is a death of a Thomas William Brown (age 31) on 15 Nov 1909 in Lahore, Bengal India. There is also a death in 1923 India of another Thomas Brown (age 50).
I don’t know if either is the right man, but you could follow up on them.
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Neale
You have provided some incredible information for me to share with my family and I am totally amazed! Thank you.
I have written to Berkshire Regiment to see if they have any suggestions or records of a local place/solicitors where Army babies were adopted during 1906-1911.
I shall follow up your suggestions for research/certificates.
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Neale - quick question - re Note in your last message which records did you find details of the deaths of the 2 Thomas Brown entries in Lahore please so I can investigate further?
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No point in looking at deaths until you have basic information about who your Thomas Brown was.
If you want to make progress with your puzzle, his marriage certificate would be needed. :)
apply here
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
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Hi Neale
I now have the marriage certificate for Thomas Brown to Annie Ruth Raven. Registry Office Reading
Married 28 March 1903
Thomas Brown age 28 (no middle name) Sargeant in 49th Berkshire (father Henry Brown)
Annie Ruth Raven age 23 living 20 St Georges Road, Reading England (father William Raven)
Strange cant find any date of death for Annie or her husband Thomas or son THomas Henry William Brown born in India
No idea who the third child was.
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Left Herbert Cecil about 1948-1951 and subsequently changed her name by deed poll as didnt want to persue a divorce apparently.
death
MAr qtr 1986
Freida Stephanie BARRACLOUGH
Reg Bath v22 pg227
I've checked The London Gazette and there is no name change listed. Her death registered as Barraclough would indicate the name change was informal.
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Had a quick check on 1921 and only 2 Annie Browns born Berkshire listed
1. was married to Leonard Brown and had 9 children
2. was a servant - cook, states born abt Jul 1883 Wantage, but as she is working for the family in Wantage, they may have just assumed she was local. Oh.... and it says married not Widow
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you can discount the death in 1909 Lahore India.
Thomas William Brown age 31 was a contractor not military
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Hi Neale
No idea who the third child was.
Have you checked this birth out?
Dec 1903
Florence Brown
mmn Raven
Reading 02C 332
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Hi Neale
I now have the marriage certificate for Thomas Brown to Annie Ruth Raven. Registry Office Reading
Married 28 March 1903
Thomas Brown age 28 (no middle name) Sargeant in 49th Berkshire (father Henry Brown)
Annie Ruth Raven age 23 living 20 St Georges Road, Reading England (father William Raven)
Strange cant find any date of death for Annie or her husband Thomas or son THomas Henry William Brown born in India
No idea who the third child was.
Was Thomas Brown a Bachelor? what profession was his father? and who were the witnesses?
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Hi
Thank you no I havent come across this birth and will try check what happened to Florence.
Thank you so much!
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If you have access to Find My Past Thomas's British Army service record is on there. He was born West Ilsley Berkshire & it is quite informative. His three children were Florence, Annie Bessie & Thomas Henry William & he was discharged on the 17th Nov 1908 at Netley. There is a Thomas Brown born July 1873 on the 1939 register unfortunately in Broadmoor Asylum Easthampstead Berkshire who could be your Thomas.
Hope this helps a little.
Maddie
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There are a few Florence Browns born in and around Reading about the same time, be careful.
1921 I think she was working at Park Hospital in Reading but the month of birth is a little out. There is also a marriage in 1925 Reading which is worth exploring
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I now have the marriage certificate for Thomas Brown to Annie Ruth Raven. Registry Office Reading
Married 28 March 1903
Thomas Brown age 28 (no middle name) Sargeant in 49th Berkshire (father Henry Brown)
Annie Ruth Raven age 23 living 20 St Georges Road, Reading England (father William Raven)
Yes, this confirms he is the Thomas Brown I had identified at the start of this thread.
Thomas Brown Born 1873 - son of Henry Brown and Lucy Rumble.
He is with his parents in East Ilsley, Berkshire in the 1881 and 1891 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27H-WVF2
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:718B-GMM
His birth registration will give his date of birth.
Purchase his Birth registration – (very quick and cheap for the digital image)
BROWN, TOM Mother - RUMBLE
GRO Reference: 1873 S Quarter in WANTAGE Volume 02C Page 296
Does his date of birth match this entry ??
1939 register - There is a Thomas Brown born 12-7-73 in Broadmoor Asylum, Berkshire (general labourer)
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Strange cant find any date of death for Annie or her husband Thomas or son THomas Henry William Brown born in India
No idea who the third child was.
It is possible that the first born child Florence was also adopted out, and had a name change.
This may have also been the case with the son Thomas Henry William born in India.
If you purchase Florence's birth registration, it would give you her exact birth date, and this might help you find her in the 1939 register.
I would look in the 1921 census for Thomas born abt 1908 India. his place of birth might make it easier to find, if he is going by the same name.
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Cosmos, I think it would be worthwhile to get a copy of his full service record. Don't you?
It may give reason for discharge - had he just finished his service, or was there a medical reason?
If you have access to Find My Past Thomas's British Army service record is on there. He was born West Ilsley Berkshire & it is quite informative. His three children were Florence, Annie Bessie & Thomas Henry William & he was discharged on the 17th Nov 1908 at Netley.
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I would look in the 1921 census for Thomas born abt 1908 India. his place of birth might make it easier to find, if he is going by the same name.
You can take out a 1 month subscription to FindMyPast to see the 1921 entry which is very interesting.
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This death
BROWN, THOMAS HENRY 1908
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/1988 in READING AND WOKINGHAM (3201A) Volume 19 Page 158
Is indexed on Ancestry and FreeBMD with a birth date of…02 Jan 1908
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BROWN, THOMAS HENRY 1908
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/1988 in READING AND WOKINGHAM (3201A) Volume 19 Page 158
good find mckha489
That looks like a very likely death for Thomas Henry William Brown.
I think this is him in the - 1939 Register in Reading Berkshire
Thomas Brown single born 6 Jan ’08 – marine Store Rag Porter. Living alone at 37 Pangbourne St Reading
(Note: Thomas was brought up by his Raven grandparents. His grandfather, William Raven appears in the census records as a "rag sorter". 1911 census address - 37 Pangbourne St Reading.)
Added:
His grandfather William Raven died in 1925. His grandmother Annie Raven died in 1928. Both in Reading.
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37 Pangbourne Street is a consistent address
A shame it’s just him there in 1939
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Reading Evening Post
23 December 1982
RAVEN On Dec 21st …..Martha Annie (Ann) , of 37 Pangbourne Street, Reading
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The Reading Standard.
10 May 1940
Has a completely illegible photo of Private G Raven of 37 P. Street. of Berkshire National Defence Corps
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Berkshire Chronicle.
28 September 1907
William Raven of 37 Pangbourne Street before the courts over school attendance,
So from at least 1907 to 1982 the house was occupied by the same family. So….was it rented for that whole time or did a rag sorter somehow get the wherewithal to buy it?
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Reading Evening Post
23 December 1982
RAVEN On Dec 21st …..Martha Annie (Ann) , of 37 Pangbourne Street, Reading
There is a probate / will entry for her. As she never married it would be interesting to see if any family members were named.
Corrected - she was Alberts second wife.
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Reading Evening Post
23 December 1982
RAVEN On Dec 21st …..Martha Annie (Ann) , of 37 Pangbourne Street, Reading
There is a probate / will entry for her. As she never married it would be interesting to see if any family members were named.
Albert George Raven died 1954 of 37 Pangbourne st, admin only to Martha Annie, widow
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Once again - no communication from Cosmos55, despite many people providing information. :(
Cosmos, When you get the birth certificate for Annie Ruth Raven you will have a date of birth. You can compare this against names in the 1939 regsiter.
There is one likely possibility I can see, under a different surname.
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hi neale
i am amazed at the information you and others are finding. Im flat out with work and big family so please dont feel im not replying sooner.
I will order and join the sites suggested and going back to Thomas Brown it seems he returned from India in 1908 (Southampton) but left army and went to a special hospital. Not sure what happened to first daughter Florence (1903) or my grandmother (1906) during all this.
I will be in touch over the weekend.
You and your fellow contributors are
providing fascinating traces here.
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Cosmos, Thanks for letting us know you are still following this thread.
... going back to Thomas Brown it seems he returned from India in 1908 (Southampton) but left army and went to a special hospital.
I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Thomas Brown is such a common name. We don't know if the man in the hospital is your Thomas. You need to get his birth certificate and find his birth date, to be able to move forward.
Also if you want to try to trace Annie Ruth (Raven) Brown, you need her exact birth date from her birth certificate.
.... Not sure what happened to first daughter Florence (1903) ......
To have any hope of finding Florence, you need to know her birth date, so you need to acquire her birth certificate. If she had a complete name change it might not be possible to find her.
The digital records available from the GRO are the way to go, in my opinion. They are quite inexpensive and can be downloaded immediately.
Let us know what you find and we can try to help further. :)
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Some more interesting news! ;D .... It would seem that Annie Ruth (Raven) Brown had a fourth child born in 1911.
The 1921 census shows the following 2 Brown boys living with the Raven family in Reading:
• Thomas Brown Grandson Male 1908 13y 6m born India
• Arthur George Brown Grandson Male 1911 9y 8 m born London
Arthur George Brown remains with the Raven family in Pangbourne St, but at some point he changes his surname to STEARMAN.
See the electoral rolls up to 1937 – all living at 37 Pangbourne St
George Raven, Thomas Brown, Arthur George Stearman
Regarding Arthur George Brown who became Arthur George Stearman.
From his age in the 1921 census, we know he was born about October 1911.
So when Annie Ruth Raven/ Brown was working as a cook in the school in Surrey in 1911 census, she must have been pregnant.
Guess who else is working at the same school?
George Henry Stearman a butler, age 43. He was married in 1894 to Susannah Dye who appears living in Norfolk with some children, but Stearman and her seem to be living apart, in 1901 census, 1911 census, and in 1920 he is in the workhouse in Camden London, and he dies there in November 1920.
When the son was born in 1911 George and Annie registered him using Susannah’s maiden name “Dye”, and then packed the child off to the Ravens. I suppose they may have both lost their employment as well?
( I can see that George Henry Stearman fathered another illegitimate child named Albert Edward baptised in 1906 in Willesden with a woman named May Hannah.)
George Arthur Stearman alias Arthur George BROWN (birth 18 Oct 1911)
Birth rego
STEARMAN, GEORGE ARTHUR Mother – DYE
GRO Reference: 1911 D Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 1569
George Arthur married Gwendoline Lydia Agnes COOPER in 1937 in Reading
He died 2 Jan 1961 Reading.
It looks like they had four children up to 1950. They cannot be named here as they will probably still be alive. However this might provide a DNA match for Cosmos.
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Wow I cant keep pace with this thread!!! Not so long ago either... this whole genelogy is a complete new world of amazement to me. I will trace the certificates and references over the weekend and still wonder when/where my grandmother was adopted... Did she go to India with her parents when Thomas was born or adopted afyer birth. I will be back with certificate info :)))
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… Thomas's British Army service record is on there. He was born West Ilsley Berkshire & it is quite informative. His three children were Florence, Annie Bessie & Thomas Henry William & he was discharged on the 17th Nov 1908 at Netley.
While we have been waiting to hear back from Cosmos with records I have been wondering about the above information, and why Thomas was in Netley. (Note- I have not seen the records referred to.)
There was a large military hospital in Netley – The Queen Victoria Military Hospital
Was Thomas Brown in Netley, and discharged there, because he was in hospital ?
If so - there is this possible death.
BROWN, THOMAS Age 32
GRO Reference: 1909 M Quarter in FAREHAM Volume 02B Page 475
If this is correct it would suggest that the 2 little girls were adopted out after Thomas’ death and before the 1911 census – about 1909 or 1910.
1911 census sees Annie Ruth Brown working at the Woodcote Lodge School in Windlesham. We don’t know when she commenced work there.
This school was started after the battle of Waterloo to train young boys for the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst. By 1854 it was a boys’ boarding school still with military connections.
When you look at the places of birth of the students in the 1911 census, it is clear that most of them are probably sons of military families.
I wonder if Annie’s connection with the military got her the job there after her husband’s death? I also wonder if the school had contacts which organised the adoption of orphaned children – or maybe Netley hospital did?
Annie would not have been able to live and work at the school with three young children in tow.
Lots of speculation from me while we wait for some more information from Cosmos. :)
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Hi
Im trying to download digital images of the certificates we need (youve all suggested) but not working on mobile unfortunately so will try on laptop tomorrow. I am a member of Myheritage but do you suggest i sign up for Ancestry and any other suggestions please. A completely new world this is for me and such interesting, amazing information you are all providing.
Ill be in touch tomorrow with birth dates etc requested. Thank you so much again.
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Good thinking Neale.
I’ve finally got around to looking at that military file
And I think you could be correct.
He was invalided home 23 Oct 1908, discharged ‘medically unfit’ 17th November 1908
Although it does say he would be suited to a position of trust in civilian life.
The file names his parents and all his brothers & sisters as well as the children
And…Florence’s birthdate is 2nd November 1903. So can we find her? If we assume the girls were ‘rehomed’ in 1909, she would have been 6. Surely too young old (brain fade) to have another name assigned.
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I am a member of Myheritage but do you suggest i sign up for Ancestry and any other suggestions please. A completely new world this is for me and such interesting, amazing information you are all providing.
Cosmos, if you want access to Thomas Brown's military information and the 1921 census, you would need to join FindMyPast, as these are not on Ancestry.
We now know Florence's birthdate, so we will do some more searching for her.
You may prefer NOT to get her birth certificate now, but instead get the death certificate for the Thomas Brown in 1909. As this will tell us if my hunch is right or wrong.
BROWN, THOMAS Age 32
GRO Reference: 1909 M Quarter in FAREHAM Volume 02B Page 475
Thanks mckha489 for your vote of confidence. ;)
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Hi
So further information requested on this thread:
Florence Brown DOB 2/11/1903
Mother Annie Ruth Brown nee Raven
Father Thomas Brown DOB 13/09/1873 Sg Royal Berks Reg
living at 75 Beecham Road, Reading
Death Thomas Brown 20/02/1909
Union Workhouse, Fareham
Age 32 Mariner - previous residence unknown
Died Pneumonia and cardiac failure
Have emailed The National Archives for information on adoptions of children from Netley (Queen Victoria) hospital for any information regarding adoption records for children adopted from here.
Please ask for any further information.
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No birth date (birth registration) yet for Annie Ruth Raven?
When you get it you can compare it with this date of birth for Annie R Hibbs. Orherwise there is no way of knowing if it is right or wrong.
1939 Register New Forest Rd Hampshire
William C Hibbs born 1.9.97 a hotel chef
Annie Ruth Hibbs born 26.1.1882 domestic duties
A redacted entry
Desmond Mercer born 12.4. 26
Annie Ruth Brown married Charles W Hibbs in 1924 Hampshire
Annie Ruth Hibbs (born 26 Jan 1882) died in 1969 in Hampshire.
William Charles Hibbs died 1983
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Hi
Unfortunately that doesn't look to be the death for your Thomas. As his birth was registered as Tom Brown Sept QTR 1873 Wantage the birth date for the chap in the 1939 register of 12th July 1873 is looking like a good fit.!!!
Maddie
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Father Thomas Brown DOB 13/09/1873 Sg Royal Berks Reg
Where does this DOB come from?
Is it on his birth certificate?
can you please post exactly what is written on Thomas Brown’s birth certificate.
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Hi Neale
The birth cert for Thomas Brown
entry 66, 13 September 1873, west IIsey, Tom, boy, Father Henry Brown Farm Labourer, Mother Lucy Brown formerly Rumble
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GRO digital online service closed 4pm so will have other informatio tomorrow - Annie R Ravens DOB
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Unfortunately that doesn't look to be the death for your Thomas. As his birth was registered as Tom Brown Sept QTR 1873 Wantage the birth date for the chap in the 1939 register of 12th July 1873 is looking like a good fit.!!!
I agree this death is not for the right Thomas.
I disagree that the chap who appears in the 1939 register is a good fit.
We know that Thomas was back in England in 1908, so he should appear in the 1911 census if he was alive. I believe he had died before then, which is why his wife is a widow in 1911 and the children are dispersed.
There is another possible death registration in Dec quarter 1908 in FARNHAM (Surrey) . Age 35.
This might be him, and worth investigating, as there was a military college in Farnham.
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Hi
Unfortunately I cant seem to find the birth record of Annie Ruth Brown born Raven 1880-1882 in Reading. I only see info in the 1911 Census and her marriage cert. I must admit I am a complete beginner with this fascinating genelogy work! Any suggestions for searching for a birth cert please?
Again big thank you to all the contributors to this thread.
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Hi
Unfortunately I cant seem to find the birth record of Annie Ruth Brown born Raven 1880-1882 in Reading. I only see info in the 1911 Census and her marriage cert. I must admit I am a complete beginner with this fascinating genelogy work! Any suggestions for searching for a birth cert please?
Again big thank you to all the contributors to this thread.
As per much earlier in thread reply #6 from the ever skilful Neale! :)
RABEN, ANNIE RUTH Mother - BRUNSDEN
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in BRADFIELD Volume 02C Page 351
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Thank you, will order now, what does M Quarter mean?
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...what does M Quarter mean?
March Quarter (Jan-Mar)
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Thank you!
So Ive obtained the birthcert for Annie Ruth Raven (Raben) and her DOB is 25 January 1862
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Thank you!
So Ive obtained the birthcert for Annie Ruth Raven (Raben) and her DOB is 25 January 1862
1882 ?
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So Ive obtained the birthcert for Annie Ruth Raven (Raben) and her DOB is 25 January 1862
I think you must mean 25 Jan 1882
See my reply #64 ---
I think this might be your Annie Ruth (only one day out in DOB 26 Jan 1882)
She married in 1924 Hampshire as Annie Ruth Brown to Charles W Hibbs, and the only way to know if that is the correct person is to get the marriage certificate.
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Cosmos, I understand why you want to know more about your grandmother’s adoption, but I don’t believe there will be any documentation for you to find. Child adoption had no legal status in Britain until 1926, when the first Act was passed which regulated this in England and Wales. Until then, child adoption was an informal and generally secretive procedure.
I have looked to see if there was any apparent connection / acquaintance between Annie Bessie’s adoptive parents and her biological parents, and I found nothing.
I believe we have now narrowed the adoption time down to a 2 year window between 1909 and 1911.
To try to narrow it further, you would continue to look for the death of Thomas Brown. With all the information we have now, I am inclined to think he died before 1911, rather than the other option of him deserting his wife and family. Knowing his DOB, did not throw up any new leads for him still living after 1911, that I could see. Others may have more luck.
There is another possible death for Thomas to look at that I mentioned above (reply #69). If you can’t find a death for him before 1911 then I am not sure I have any more ideas on tracing Thomas. Unfortunately with such a common name, it is extremely difficult.
The other thing you could try, is to find out when Annie Ruth Brown started work at Woodcote House School in Windlesham, because her children would probably have been adopted before or around that date. The school still exists today and may have archives with records of staff employment that go back to the 1909-1911 period. They may not be able to help, as she was domestic staff rather than a teacher – but you have nothing to lose, so asking them (and explaining your reason) is an option to consider.
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Hi neale
Your message and extensive time consuming research in my quest to trace my fathers unknown family history is incredible.
This evening I have written to Woodcote House and a historic group amd also The National Archives for the Netley Hospital amd will report back either way if I get a reply.
I agree with you that its probably an impossible mission to get the adoption details and unfortunately prior to my grandmothers death she asked a friend to destroy papers in a box and for my parents to not see what was in it! Now guess adoption information was possibly there as she would have needed this for her passport application to prove change of name from Brown (birtb cert) to Hayward then marriage cert to Barraclough and deed poll record to Felton!!
Shame it was pre record keeping.
I will be back and wish you all the best in your continuing research for others.
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Hello, I am the owner of www.netleyabbeymatters.co.uk which covers the Past Lives and Times of Netley Abbey Village and Netley War Hospital aka the Royal Victoria Military Hospital. I also maintain the Netley Hospital Names' database of those folk we have identified were at some point at Netley Hospital in its lifetime (1862 - 1978).
I've looked at the Army Record for Thomas Brown. His Service No is 3522 although one document looks like 3532. In light of a comment about there being a "Thomas" in an Asylum somewhere, if there had been the slightest indication that Thomas was discharged because he was suffering with, say, melancholia or "confusional insanity", his discharge papers would show this - but they don't. The reason for discharge would not have said "found to be medically unfit", the documents would have been stamped "Insane". There would likely too have been a further statement showing to which Asylum he would have been escorted; his place of birth/place of settlement was Wantage, Berks so documents would have shown him being sent to Berkshire County Asylum unless or until a family member came forward to "claim" him. I looked briefly without success for his Pension Card/Claim both under his name and Annie's as that should be stamped "Dead" and show the date when his Pension ceased.
I have added Thomas to the Netley Hospital Names' database. Thank you for the information!