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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Greenvale on Friday 20 October 23 14:20 BST (UK)
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Can someone please decipher this birthplace entry in the 1871 England Census. Ancestry transcribes it as Bal Bromnor but I haven't managed to find such a place in Ireland.
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Please could you give the page reference for this entry?
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here's a link https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2988592:7619
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Whats the reference please, I don't currently have access to Ancestry.
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Whats the reference please, I don't currently have access to Ancestry.
3122/54/9
Add - so far I don't see a match in Co Roscommon
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Piece 3122
Folio 54
Page number 9
1861 born Ireland, 1881 born Roscommon
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Whats the reference please, I don't currently have access to Ancestry.
3122/54/9
Add - so far I don't see a match in Co Roscommon
I've looked through a Wiki list of towns and villages in Roscommon but nothing seems to be close to Bal Bromnor. I'm thinking that perhaps the Census taker misheard or didn't know how to spell her answer and just wrote what he thought was correct.
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Thomas Cunningham married Sabina Moran dq 1851 Birmingham, all children born after this date who appear in 1861 & 1871 have mmn Moran. Cannot find an image on either 2 big sub sites.
SS
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A possible in 1911 census living in the household of her daughter Mary Donelly.
Sabina Cunningham--82- Kilmanah County Mayo, Ireland
SS
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Thomas Cunningham married Sabina Moran dq 1851 Birmingham, all children born after this date who appear in 1861 & 1871 have mmn Moran. Cannot find an image on either 2 big sub sites.
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I think Sabena Moran (Cunningham) and Selena (Selina) Cunningham are two different people although they may have been related by marriage. At that time and in that area of Birmingham were lots of Cunninghams. In 1881 Selina's daughter Annie (1860-1913) married Owen Cunningham (1856 - 1936) who also had a cousin named Ann Cunningham (1858 - 1913)
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Do you have the marriage of Owen Cunningham and Ann with her father’s name?
It is confusing.
1861 2153 /33/4
Thomas and Selena have 3 children including Ann, 1 year.
She is not with them in 1871 and 1881.
1881 3038/45/23
There is Annie Cunningham, 23 yrs with parents Daniel and Ann in Aston.
There is a marriage later in 1881 in Aston fir Owen Cunningham and Annie Cunningham.
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In 1881, Owen Cunningham is a Visitor in the household of Daniel and Ann and Annie.
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I have a marriage record for Owen and Annie
1881, 4th Quarter, Aston, Warwickshire, 6d, page 596
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Yes, I mentioned that.
I mean the marriage certificate which would have her father’s details.
There is a transcript of a baptism at St Chad, Birmingham, 17th October 1858
Latin
Anna Cunningham
Father : Danielis Cunningham
Mother: Annae Moran Cunningham
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Yes, I mentioned that.
I mean the marriage certificate which would have her father’s details.
There is a transcript of a baptism at St Chad, Birmingham, 17th October 1858
Latin
Anna Cunningham
Father : Danielis Cunningham
Mother: Annae Moran Cunningham
Stupid me!
Having rechecked my research and looking at Owen and Anne's marriage certificate I see that Owen married his cousin Anne whose father was Daniel Cunningham, Owen's uncle.
The other set of Cunninghams, Thomas, Salina and their daughter Anne were red herrings although they may be related in some way.
Thank you Heywood for your advice. It will teach me to be more careful in future!
It does raise the question of consanguinity in the marriage as they were 1st cousins.
Another point is that if the Cunningham families were related is their birthplace the same? Which brings me back to my original query, can anyone suggest the placename shown in the census?
My thanks to all who contributed my query
Greenvale
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A possible in 1911 census living in the household of her daughter Mary Donelly.
Sabina Cunningham--82- Kilmanah County Mayo, Ireland
SS
Greenvale,
You wrote that you think ‘Sabina’ and ‘Selina’ are two different people but there doesn’t seem to be evidence of this in censuses.
The one above is with daughter ‘Mary’.
Thomas and ‘Selina’ have daughters, Mary and Margaret.
The children in 1911 look to be the children of Margaret even though 1911 shows Mary.
1901 2844 /112/23
John and Margaret Donnelly
1891 2387/67
John and Margaret Donlan.
Marriage 1886
John Donlan and Margaret Cunningham.
So if this is Selina/Sabina Cunningham, here is Kilmannin which is not too far from Roscommon.
https://www.logainm.ie/en/36377
Sorry this is a long way round to confirm 1911 person.
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The marriage certificate for Thomas and Sabina in 1851 might be useful re father’s name.
If married in a Catholic church, there may be more information in the parish records.
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As you say - many Cunninghams.
Do you have the marriage certificate for David Cunningham and Christina Malady?
Are they Owen’s parents?
Are you saying that David and Daniel are brothers?
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Yes I have the marriage cert. for David and Christina.
David's father is named as Edward Cunningham.
Baptism record for Owen at St.Chads 11th May 1856
ANOTHER ERROR!!!!!!!!!!
For some reason I have Daniels father as Edward Cunningham. It must have come from somewhere but I haven't a clue from where! So no consanguinity issues I hope.
1861 census gives his place of birth as Drumrang or possibly Drumrainey.
More research and care needed.
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It looks as though you may have to go through your records and see who you can link.
Perhaps look at marriages for those who you believe may be brothers to check their fathers.
Do the witness’ names help on marriage certificates?
If you can access church baptism records - Godparents’ names to check too.
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Yes I have the marriage cert. for David and Christina.
David's father is named as Edward Cunningham.
Baptism record for Owen at St.Chads 11th May 1856
ANOTHER ERROR!!!!!!!!!!
For some reason I have Daniels father as Edward Cunningham. It must have come from somewhere but I haven't a clue from where! So no consanguinity issues I hope.
1861 census gives his place of birth as Drumrang or possibly Drumrainey.
More research and care needed.
I see these census entries:
1861 2157/33/26
Daniel, Anne/ie, Eluzabeth 9 yrs, Annie 2yrs all born Drumrang/y
Places beginning ‘Drumran…’
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sqj/
Drumraney, Westmeath perhaps the one.
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Just to close
In 1871 3120/126/30
Elizabeth (daughter if Daniel and Ann) shows b Ireland but Ann b Birmingham.
1881 with her parents and husband Reuben Clutterbuck, she is b Birmingham.
1911 Elizabeth Clutterbuck b Westmeath
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Heywood, thanks for all your hard work and for the links and suggestions. I'm now going to look at that little section of my tree with a fine tooth comb before I try and delve into the Irish records and continue my research.
Best wishes
Greenvale
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Can someone please decipher this birthplace entry in the 1871 England Census. Ancestry transcribes it as Bal Bromnor but I haven't managed to find such a place in Ireland.
But the "Ireland, Roscommon" and "Bai Bromnor" entries are on two different lines, for two different people. Why then the assumption that "Bai Bromnor" is in Ireland?
None of the other entries on that page run over from one line to the next.
If for some reason people still think it is related to Ireland, then how about the following:
If you look closely, I think you will see that it is not Bai, but Bal. That would be a version of the Anglicization of the Gaelic Baile.
With that insight, the entry would appear to be a mangling or phonetic rendition of one of the Ball... or Bally.... townlands. Several possibilities, such as Ballyboughan?