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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: rosneath on Monday 16 October 23 16:03 BST (UK)
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There are variations of Tamar's name - Tamer, Thamer, Honor and even Thomas for first names. Denithorne, Dennithorn and Donythorne for last.
She married Ralph Kent in St Gluvias on 15 June 1700 and proceeded to produce at least 8 children, one of which is my 7th great grandmother. Tamar died in St Gluvias in April 1740 and is buried there.
The only baptism I can find in Cornwall is 6 September 1672 in St Gluvias, father Henry. That makes her at least aged 28 on marriage in 1700.
My question is, is it likely that the marriage in 1700 would be her first? It's the only one I've found. And would it be customary to be widowed but married again in her maiden name?
Thank you
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Nothing in the parish register to suggest she was a widow
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sqx/
If she had been a widow, it would be unlikely that she would marry in her maiden name.
I've checked for wills for Henry & Ralph but none in the opc index.
You may find her name as Thomasine as well.
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Thank you. I hadn't seen the original parish record before but, I agree, no suggestion she was a widow.
In doing further Cornish research in the 18thC I have a found other females marrying in their late 20s and going to have large families so maybe it's not so unusual. The other possibility is that the Tamar baptised in 1672 died and another child was given the same name without a baptism either taking place or being recorded.
I see you have Donithorn as name you are researching. I've found variations of the name in St Gluvias and Truro but haven't managed to link any of them together.
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Information on freereg, which you may already have.
Father Henry.
Tamar DONNITHORNE Baptism 08 Sep 1672 Cornwall St Gluvias : St Gluvias the Martyr : Parish Register
Also John DANNITHORNE 1671, Anne DONNYTHORNE 1674 (Mother also noted as Grace)
Jane DENYTHORNE 1677, Nicklas/Nicolas DONNYTHORNE 1682 (Burial 1683) (Henery & Grace noted), there may be others.
Looks likely that Henry was buried 1709 & Grace 1715 (No detail)
Honner DENITHORNERalph KENT Marriage 15 Jun 1700 Cornwall St Gluvias : St Gluvias the Martyr : Parish Register
Possible baptism. Father John
Ralfe K[EO]*NT Baptism 19 Aug 1669 Cornwall Perranzabuloe : St Piran : Parish Register
Brother John1672 & 1680
Tamar KENT Burial 26 Apr 1740 Cornwall St Gluvias : St Gluvias the Martyr : Parish Register
I note that Ralph & Tamar had several children, including Henry 1707/08 & Grace 1716, it’s possible the burial below might be Henry.
Son of Ralfe & Tamur
* KENT Burial 15 Oct 1708 Cornwall St Gluvias : St Gluvias the Martyr : Parish Register
My guess would be that this is all correct for Tamar/Honner despite her parents names not necessarily being in the English naming pattern, which was not followed by all. I do not see another marriage but not all married young, so 28 is not abnormal in my opinion.
Colin
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My Donithorn bride appears seemingly from nowhere. I can find a couple of possible baptisms but there are also burials to eliminate the candidates. So if you have a lost Alice around 1740, I'll claim her.
;)
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Thank you Colin
So many different spellings!! I had most of those except John bap 1671 which suggests the Henry/Grace marriage was 1670 or 1671.
So I think I am probably on the right track!!
Appreciated!
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Hello rosneath, I think we may be distant cousins!
Henry Denithorne, (Dennythorne, Donnithorne et al.) 1637 - 1709 is my 8th great uncle. I am descended from his brother, John Denithorne, 1643 - 1716. According to FreeReg records both were baptized at St Gluvias the Martyr Church with parents John Denithorne and Anes.
All the best,
Margaret :)
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Hello Margaret
How wonderful we have found that connection! John son of John and Ane is my 7th great grand uncle.
Yes, I had John Donnithorne and An, Ane, Anes or Anne as Henry's parents. Other possible children I found were Nicholas 1633 and William 1640. I found 2 Johns! One baptised 1646, another born about 1644 but they could be the same person!
Is your ancestor the John that married Blanch Dout in 1664?
All the best
Isabel
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Hi Isabel,
Yes, my John married Blanch Dout in 1664 - she died in 1715 St. Gluvias. Unfortuately, I don't know when or where she was born nor who her parents were. There is also Elizabeth, parents John and Anes baptized 21 Jan 1643 the same day as my John.
I have also seriously considered whether the John Donythorne bap 1646 with parents John and Anne could be my John, however I can't find a burial for John (bap 1643) beween 1643 - 1646. I can only hope that when he was buried in 1716 his age was recorded on his headstone (if indeed there is one) thus solving the mystery.
Then there is John Donithorn bap 28 Aug 1644 of John and An - I must admit I I need some help trying to figure out which John married Blanch Dout. Any suggestions would be most welcome.
Best wishes,
Margaret
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Hi Margaret
I agree, too many John Denithorne/Dannithorn/Donnithorns baptised around the same time to similar named parents. And no eliminating burials. I doubt if there will be a headstone. Find a Grave only shows one for the period that interests us.
I did wonder if John D and An, Ane or Anne are different people to John and Anes. Anes being a phonetic spelling of Agnes. There is a baptism for parents John and Agnes daughter Elizabeth in 1629. But that might be clutching at straws!
So two similar families having children baptised at St Gluvias the Martyr. Perhaps.
Generally I have found that if parents have children baptised using the same Christian name, the earlier ones have died, even if there is no record. Marriages and births seem to have been more important to record. So I would say for you that it's more likely that the John baptised 1646 is the one that married Blanch in 1664, even though he would have been aged 18 or 19.
It's all a bit of guesswork, isn't?
Best wishes
Isabel
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Thank you for your help Isabel,
The history of the name Anes is very interesting with Agnes and Annis considered related names however they apparently could be interchanged with Ann or Anne in the 17th Century - add 3 Johns to the mix and I feel like I am going around in circles!
Re Elyzabithe Denithorne Bap 31 Oct 1629 with parents John and Agnes - no, I don't think you are clutching at straws, unfortunately it looks like she died a few months before our Henry was born - Elizabethe Denythorne dau of John buried 7 Jul 1636 St Gluvias the Martyr.
There was also a John Donithorn and Mary who had their children baptized at St Gluvias the Martyr at a similar time to John and Blanch/Henry and Grace - he may well be one of our 'Johns' - of course we may never know for sure - pity, it would be great to eliminate one of them. ;)
- John Donithorn bap 31 Jul 1676 parents John and Mary
- Nicholas Denythorne burial 20 Oct 1678 of John and Mary also,
- Mary Denythorne Bap 12 Aug 1680 to John and Mary - Mary Dennythorne burial 10 Feb 1683
- Nicklas Donnythorne bap 16 Jul 1682, Nickalas Donythorne burial 04 Feb 1683.
I was contemplating John bap. May 1646 marrying Blanch Aug 1664, aged 18 and I was wondering if he would have required parental consent to marry and if so, is it likely that the consent would be recorded on the church marriage record or elsewhere?
Overall, I agree, it is all a bit of guesswork, but for me it's great fun trying to solve the puzzles along the way - even if I spend a great deal of time twirling around in circles.
Take care,
Margaret :)
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Hi Margaret
I had a look at the original parish record for marriages on Family Search. There’s nothing to suggest John who married Blanch needed parental permission but that could just be the way the vicar recorded things! Not sure if this link will take you there but it’s on page 71 ….
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-65Z9-X7?i=70&wc=3CB8-3TB%3A138123201%2C141408201%2C1582892801&cc=1769414
I’ve got to Tamar and her potential mother Grace as I have tested my mtDNA. Mother’s mother’s mother etc. But the results turn out to be rare in Northern Europe so are not linking me to anyone else. I tried finding other Denithornes through Ancestry DNA but drew a blank there too. I think we are a rare species!!
Cheers
Isabel
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I think the question of parental consent only started with Hardwicke's Marriage Act in 1753 so later than the marriage you're looking at.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sr8/
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Thank you Osprey I guessed something like that.
No sign of an Alice to match yours yet!
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Thank you for your help Isabel,
The history of the name Anes is very interesting with Agnes and Annis considered related names however they apparently could be interchanged with Ann or Anne in the 17th Century - add 3 Johns to the mix and I feel like I am going around in circles!
Re Elyzabithe Denithorne Bap 31 Oct 1629 with parents John and Agnes - no, I don't think you are clutching at straws, unfortunately it looks like she died a few months before our Henry was born - Elizabethe Denythorne dau of John buried 7 Jul 1636 St Gluvias the Martyr.
There was also a John Donithorn and Mary who had their children baptized at St Gluvias the Martyr at a similar time to John and Blanch/Henry and Grace - he may well be one of our 'Johns' - of course we may never know for sure - pity, it would be great to eliminate one of them. ;)
- John Donithorn bap 31 Jul 1676 parents John and Mary
- Nicholas Denythorne burial 20 Oct 1678 of John and Mary also,
- Mary Denythorne Bap 12 Aug 1680 to John and Mary - Mary Dennythorne burial 10 Feb 1683
- Nicklas Donnythorne bap 16 Jul 1682, Nickalas Donythorne burial 04 Feb 1683.
I was contemplating John bap. May 1646 marrying Blanch Aug 1664, aged 18 and I was wondering if he would have required parental consent to marry and if so, is it likely that the consent would be recorded on the church marriage record or elsewhere?
Overall, I agree, it is all a bit of guesswork, but for me it's great fun trying to solve the puzzles along the way - even if I spend a great deal of time twirling around in circles.
Take care,
Margaret :)
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Isabel, I do appreciate you posting the link to John and Blanch's marriage parish record and it's legible which is wonderful!
I have not tested mtDNA but have tested autosomal DNA with Ancestry and uploaded to MyHeritage and GEDmatch however, because our MCRA (John and Anes/An/Anne) is so distant it's possible, even though we are related we share no DNA.
My line is through John and Blanch's daughter Constance Dennythorne Bap.14 Oct 1674 St Gluvias the Martyr and Esdras Giddy (1669 - 1726) They married 3 Jan 1698 Liskeard Cornwall:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=710130.18
I have no idea why Constance married in her husband's parish of Liskeard and not her own.
Now, as for being a rare species, as long as we don't become critically endangered all will be well ;)
Margaret :)
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Thanks Osprey for clarifying that, I'll note the link for future reference.
Margaret
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Hi Margaret
It's worth comparing our kits on GedMatch as it can go down to quite small numbers. Mine is A861555 and my mother's is A417775.
Isabel
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Hi Isabel,
It's worth a try - my GEDmatch kit is HS6656625
Margaret
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Well, on GEDMatch you and my mother don’t match at minimum segment 7cM but at 5cM - wow! Probably MRCA at about 7 generations ago which is about right!
You and I don’t match at 5cM but if I take that down to 3cM, we have 10 shared segments. That could just be DNA noise. So I’d stick with my mother’s kit.
Isabel
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Fantastic!!! In this case I'll celebrate 5cMs (and even 3cMs)
Cousin Margaret :D
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Hi Margaret,
I'm wondering if we're trying too hard to solve some things. I checked out the Giddy connection on my mother's autosomal DNA and found a very small connection to Esdras Giddy's sister Honour who married a Thomas Bennet. Michael Angrove was the tree owner.
But the thing that caught my eye in the Angrove tree was that the places were Liskeard, Saltash, St Germans, Callington, South Hill, Menheniot etc. All places in my Cornish tree. Prudence Kent, daughter of Tamar Denithorne and Ralph Kent was baptised in St Gluvias in 1713. But she married John Sullefun in 1738 in St Germans. I've never worked out how she got there - but if her mother's cousin Constance was in Liskeard ... is that the connection?? Did Prudence go and visit her?
And have these two families inter-married further down the line as well? It's looking to me like we should share trees. On Ancestry I'm IDCosgrove
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Hi Isabel,
Yes, that would be a feasible reason to travel between the two parishes.
I have been working on my husband, David's tree for quite some time so have let my Ancestry sub expire, however David has a sub and I manage his tree plus both of our DNA tests. You'll find that most of the information for my Giddy/Giddey/Gedye line is more up to date on his tree:
david979 - Williams Family Tree
margaretwilliams5 - Matthews Family Tree
This is great,
Margaret