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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: gnorman on Wednesday 11 October 23 23:14 BST (UK)
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Hi, can anybody make out these occupations from the 1901 Census please?
The ones I need are the second one down and then the following three occupations after the gap. I wondered if the first two of these might be Navvy or Navy?
Thanks, Luke
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Navvy
Navvy
Doubler in cotton mill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_Spinners_and_Doublers
The last one looks like XXXX - 'up'
From this
https://www.familyresearcher.co.uk/glossary/Dictionary-of-Old-Occupations-Index.html#Old-Occupations-P
There are three occupations that have an 'up' in them. Whether any of these is the occupation you are seeking is unknown
Baller up
Holder up
Pinner up.
I have had success using edting tools to remove/lighten the crossings out to reveal the words beneath.
ETA actually it looks like Stand up (Paper Mill)
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Agree the first two are Navvy. Then "Doubler ( cotton mill)" and "?- up (paper mill)"
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Thank you both so much, I've no idea why they had to cross them out so thoroughly.
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The 1901 paper making occupations can be found here:
https://archive.org/details/census-of-england-and-wales-1901.-instructions-for-classifying-occupations/page/96/mode/2up?view=theater
I found that link at http://doot.spub.co.uk/ - this site is mainly a transcription of the occupations found in the 1921 census, with descriptions of what they entailed, but there are links at the bottom of the home page to similar lists from other years.
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Thank you ArthurK, always good to have a better understanding : )
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Could some kind person help me decipher Robert Thomas' occupation at Schedule 58, Garth, Carreghofa, Mortgomeryshire, Wales at RG9/4261 or Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8768/images/MGYRG9_4259_4262-0379?pId=15387474 ? The first words, which are in English, are "Parish Clerk &" but then we have "An' xxxxx"
In anticiation, many thanks
Best
John
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According to the children's baptisms, he was a schoolmaster.
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Thanks, Shaun. So, the words after Parish Clerk are school teacher (in Welsh?)
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Could be. One word for a teacher in Welsh is athrawon
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It's Ass(istant) Overseer (he collected the poor rates).
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Ah yes. Bookbox has solved it. Robert Thomas was Assistant Overseer in the 1851 census.
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Ah yes. Bookbox has solved it. Robert Thomas was Assistant Overseer in the 1851 census.
Many thanks, Shaun and Bookbox.
Given Robert's bureaucratic/titular role as Parish Clerk, I think an ancilliary bureaucratic/titular role, also appointed by the parish, is more likely. Additionally, the enumerator has apparently been impressed by the importance of these roles in this tiny village and capitalised both titles.
AI corroborates Bookbox: "Under the Old Poor Law, an assistant overseer was ...appointed by a parish to assist the overseers of the poor with the administration of relief to the impoverished. These individuals were often responsible for tasks like collecting the poor rate, maintaining records, and managing outdoor relief ... which could include money, food, clothing, or housing in an alms house."
However, AI is not clear as to whether it was a paid or unpaid position. My guess is that Robert was probably paid as his parish combined the roles.
Many thanks
Best wishes
John
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However, AI is not clear as to whether it was a paid or unpaid position. My guess is that Robert was probably paid as his parish combined the roles.
The AI has confused the issue by citing the Old Poor Law. This example is after 1834 and therefore comes under the New Poor Law. At this period the Assistant Overseer was a paid position (while the Overseer was unpaid).
Also, under the New Poor Law, the Assistant Overseer did not normally distribute poor relief - after 1834 that was the role of the Relieving Officer.
Caution is needed when using AI.
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Absolutely right. Bookbox. No substitute for original research.
Many thanks again for this. From my family research perspective, since parish clerk/assistant overseer would have been a significantly responsible position within the parish, this is an early example of a family member having edged up the social ladder. Indeed, as Shaun mentioned, Robert had already been a school teacher in 1841 and subsequently in 1871
I wonder, however, whether he - as an assistant overseer in Carreghofa, a very small rural area (pop. 334 in 1851) - would have a relieving officer.
BTW, Shaun, I have not be able to find Robert in the 1851C. Have you?
Best
John
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From my family research perspective, since parish clerk/assistant overseer would have been a significantly responsible position within the parish, this is an early example of a family member having edged up the social ladder. Indeed, as Shaun mentioned, Robert had already been a school teacher in 1841 and subsequently in 1871
More to the point, there would have been a limited number of people in the parish who were able to read/write in English (as opposed to Welsh) and prepare accounts, and would be able to undertake these offices.
I wonder, however, whether he - as an assistant overseer in Carreghofa, a very small rural area (pop. 334 in 1851) - would have a relieving officer.
Under the New Poor Law (after 1834), all parishes, however small, were grouped into Poor Law Unions. Each Poor Law Union had a number of Relieving Officers covering the districts within the union. Carreghofa was in the Llanfyllin Union, so one of the Llanfyllin Union's relieving officers would have had responsibility for distributing the poor relief in that parish.
After 1834, assistant overseers did not normally distribute relief. They were on the other side of the parish accounting process, as it were - collecting the parish rates from rate-payers. These payments would then be used by the poor law union to fund poor-relief payments to those who were eligible.
Llanfyllin is a very interesting poor-law union, because the old workhouse is one of very few workhouses that survive in anything resembling their original form. It is home to the Workhouse History Centre and is open to visitors.
For more info, see https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Llanfyllin/#Post-1834
and
https://www.llanfyllinworkhouse.org.uk/history
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There are a number of letters to, from or concerning Robert Thomas, Assistant Overseer of Carreghofa, held in the poor-law correspondence (MH 12) at the National Archives.
They are described in the online catalogue, and the images of the letters can be downloaded free of charge. You can select any that may be of interest from this link:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=3&_aq=llanfyllin&_ep=robert+thomas&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1800&_st=adv
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Wow!
Many thanks, Bookbox, for the clarifications and reference. You're a veritable mine of information. Will check this source out. Clearly, I shall need to spend some time reading the letter to understand better apparent disputes over cash. I did see however that Robert was also an independent preacher
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Yes, indeed, there would have been very few folks able to read/write in English in this location at this time. From my family history's social mobility perspective (his sister Catherine was my second gt grandmother, thus the appearance of niece Margaret Owens as a visitor in 1861), probably the more interesting question is how Robert (b. Oswestry 1819) became a school teacher by 1841 @ aged 20; his father Robert (b. Moelfre, Llansilin, Denbs), was apparently an unskilled labourer.
Best
John
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He probably started as a pupil teacher, possibly as young as around the age of 13 , it was a bit like an apprenticeship. By the age of 18 or so they would be qualified.
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BTW, Shaun, I have not be able to find Robert in the 1851C. Have you?
Yes HO107/2499 Folio 547 page 7
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Many thanks, Shaun, for finding this. But what a Horlicks the enumerator made of it.
So, "Shows" is Thomas for Robert (b. Oswestry) - again an assistant overseer - and Catherine (b. Llanymynech, Shropshire, not Llwyngwril, which is in Gwynedd)
Then, another couple of puzzles. The enumerator adds "Eary" Edwards, as a visitor but I do not recognise this forename. And, then, John Robert "Edwards" is listed as Robert's son, age 5. Robert and Catherine married the year before in 1850. John Robert Thomas was baptised 3 Jan 1851 but died 15 Jan 1852. So, would have been 1.
Any help/corroboration much appreciated.
Best
John
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But what a Horlicks the enumerator made of it.
That's a bit unfair on the enumerator. It's Ancestry that's made a Horlicks of it.
FindMyPast transcribed Robert Thomas correctly, and has son John Robert as aged 0, correctly reflecting the age of 5 months recorded by the enumerator.
FindMyPast's stab at the female visitor's first name is Rees. It does appear to begin with R.
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The writing is terrible, not helped by squeezing in the visitor :(
Could the visitor be Eliz Edwards, 12 scholar born Oswestry? The first letter coincides with the capital letter of John, which does make it appear like as R.
There is this one with mmn Thomas, so perhaps a niece?
EDWARDS, ELIZABETH THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1838 S Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 18 Page 146
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But what a Horlicks the enumerator made of it.
That's a bit unfair on the enumerator. It's Ancestry that's made a Horlicks of it.
FindMyPast transcribed Robert Thomas correctly, and has son John Robert as aged 0, correctly reflecting the age of 5 months recorded by the enumerator.
FindMyPast's stab at the female visitor's first name is Rees. It does appear to begin with R.
Shaun
You are right (again). Mea culpa: Ancestry made a Horlicks of the transcription.
"Eary"? Edwards does, however, look more like Eliz than Rees. Note the shape of the "E" in Edward and Eliz a few lines down at Schedule 28. Also tied in with fiddleclass' find for the 1838 Oswestry birth associated with Thomas, which I will need to research further.
Thanks
John
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The writing is terrible, not helped by squeezing in the visitor :(
Could the visitor be Eliz Edwards, 12 scholar born Oswestry? The first letter coincides with the capital letter of John, which does make it appear like as R.
There is this one with mmn Thomas, so perhaps a niece?
EDWARDS, ELIZABETH THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1838 S Quarter in OSWESTRY Volume 18 Page 146
Many thanks, fiddleclass. I think you are correct: "Eary"? Edwards looks more like Eliz than Rees. Note the shape of the "E" in Edward and Eliz a few lines down at Schedule 28 on the same page - . which ties in with your find for the 1838 Oswestry birth associated with Thomas, which I will need to research further.
Best
John